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SteveInKA
06-26-2006, 11:50 PM
Long time browser, first time poster. First off I just wanted to say what a great website you guys have here and thanks for running and maintaining it. Lots of useful information and discussion. I live in southern CA. I just recently bought a second home about ten minutes outside of Phoenix, AZ. I work in CA so i plan on staying here. I haven't done any research as of yet in regards to the law and whether or not i can purchase and stock non CA legal rifles in my arizona home while still living in CA. A friend of mine told me that i would need to get an Arizona driver's license and relinquish my CA dl. Is that true? Is it necessary to have an AZ dl to purchase non CA legal rifles? Would the DOJ be satisfied with an AZ gov't issued ID card? Thanks in advance.

bwiese
06-27-2006, 1:29 AM
DL would not be needed.

However, residency is a funny thing. You prob should talk to one of the gun lawyers about this. You need to keep CA, AZ and US/BATF happy.

As I understand it (dimly) you really don't have 'dual residency'. You reside in one place or the other for periods of time. How short or long those are to retrigger a residency period I dunno. (Going back & forth may not necessarily count.)

If you buy a handgun in AZ during your AZ residency you have to fill out registration paperwork when you come back into CA.

Ford8N
06-27-2006, 6:25 AM
(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]


For hand guns, I believe you can buy if you are physically in the state. Long guns, I don't know. Just get an AZ DL or ID card.

DV8
06-27-2006, 6:51 AM
If I remember it right, you would need to reside in AZ for a certain period of time. Just having a house there doesnt establish residency.

To buy firearms from an FFL there, you would need a DL or ID or you could apply for a CCW there and just show that when you buy something. PPT are real easy there too, some sellers just ask for id, then you hand over your money and the deal is done.

glen avon
06-27-2006, 7:01 AM
you could always buy it here in CA sans PG, and properly assemble it in AZ.

gose
06-27-2006, 7:10 AM
you could always buy it here in CA sans PG, and properly assemble it in AZ.

Not if he wants to buy something from the list. A SIG 551 or HK 94 won't become CA legal just because you remove the PG ;)

Hunter
06-27-2006, 7:14 AM
......Is it necessary to have an AZ dl to purchase non CA legal rifles? Would the DOJ be satisfied with an AZ gov't issued ID card? Thanks in advance.

If you have a photo ID showing a AZ address, you will be able to purchase a firearm in AZ. Residency rules vary depending on what you are attempting. For going to school there, one has to live continuously for 12 months to pay resident tuition. In order to get a resident hunting license in Arizona, someone must demonstrate he or she does most, if not all of the following: permanently or primarily resides in Arizona for at least 6 months (showing utility bills in ones name), possesses an Arizona drivers license and registers his/her vehicle in Arizona, maintains a home in Arizona, votes in Arizona, and pays Arizona resident income taxes. A person cannot be considered a resident of two states at the same time. So if ones moves between CA and AZ, they will have two state income tax forms to file that year.

But for firearms you just need a valid photo ID with AZ address. Now any guns that you buy in AZ can be left in AZ without any further concern. If you decided to bring any handguns back to CA when you "move back", you will need to file the proper paperwork with DOJ.

Cdog
06-27-2006, 10:16 AM
The ID card will not work without a utility bill like SRP or your property taxes. Better yet, just get an AZ lic. and be done with it. F CA and their communist laws & Tax's. Remember to renew your lic. plates in AZ. You will get a ticket with AZ plates and a CA driver lic. or vise versa. Also once you're a AZ resident for a while you can go and get your CCL. With the AZ CCL you can buy your rifles and handguns without the background check.

Why not support the state that supports your constitutional rights?

Enjoy!:D


We too own in AZ. No longer own in OC.

SteveInKA
06-27-2006, 3:08 PM
Thanks for the replies, guys. I think i'm going to talk to a local FFL out there and see what he thinks in regards to the legality of owning an AW while still having a CA dl. All I want is a pistol grip carbine without a fixed mag!! Well that and a few other "evil" rifles:)

50 Freak
06-27-2006, 3:41 PM
My suggestion is don't talk to an FFL, most time they don't know the laws.

Call an attorney friend or even the DOJ (not the CA DOJ) but the AZ (DOJ) for an answer. Try to get it in writing if you can.

Please post your results if you can. I'd be interested in knowing for sure myself.

SemiAutoSam
06-27-2006, 3:52 PM
The ID card will not work without a utility bill like SRP or your property taxes. Better yet, just get an AZ lic. and be done with it. F CA and their communist laws & Tax's. Remember to renew your lic. plates in AZ. You will get a ticket with AZ plates and a CA driver lic. or vise versa. Also once you're a AZ resident for a while you can go and get your CCL. With the AZ CCL you can buy your rifles and handguns without the background check.

Why not support the state that supports your constitutional rights?

Enjoy!:D


We too own in AZ. No longer own in OC.

Have you seen a law that requires a physical address on both the State issued ID and the utility bill ?

I use a Mailing address on both my ID and my utilities when one is gone for a week or two at a time the mail box at the highway isnt always totally secure and or weather proof.

Im interested in knowing what law if there is one that requires a physical address on the ID and or other utility bill that one is using as a back up document ?

thanks

Cdog
06-27-2006, 4:33 PM
Have you seen a law that requires a physical address on both the State issued ID and the utility bill ?

I use a Mailing address on both my ID and my utilities when one is gone for a week or two at a time the mail box at the highway isnt always totally secure and or weather proof.

Im interested in knowing what law if there is one that requires a physical address on the ID and or other utility bill that one is using as a back up document ?

thanks



Not sure exactly. My FFL said I had to have a utility bill with a state ID or a driver lic. You will have to state that you are a resident on the dros. Just get your AZ DL and be an AZ resident. Either way, what's the point of having a CA DL? If you are the owner occupant of the AZ home you can be a resident. My cpa say's I have to pay state taxes for the state the $$$ is earned in. So I don't think that's a valid issue. I am in Real Estate and work in both states. If you start asking a FFL all these questions it will sound like you are trying to do something sneaky. Too much liability to do biz with you.

SemiAutoSam
06-27-2006, 4:54 PM
No im not trying to do anything sneaky I just value my privacy and am not going to make it easy for them to come and collect what I have spent alot of hard earned cash on.

That is if there ever comes a time when they feel californians are too childish to have any firearms to protect themselves with.

That last post had to do with a certian law I was looking for california law or federal law not AZ law.

If a FFL has a problem with my knowing the law and or his giving me his knowledge of the law then he is out of the running IE will not be receiving any of my business.

Cdog
06-27-2006, 6:36 PM
No im not trying to do anything sneaky I just value my privacy and am not going to make it easy for them to come and collect what I have spent alot of hard earned cash on.

That is if there ever comes a time when they feel californians are too childish to have any firearms to protect themselves with.

That last post had to do with a certian law I was looking for california law or federal law not AZ law.

If a FFL has a problem with my knowing the law and or his giving me his knowledge of the law then he is out of the running IE will not be receiving any of my business.



I believe the bills and ID are to prove residence. FFL's are always suspect to shady people and questions. Especially form Californians. The guy at sportsmanís wherehouse won't know nononono to tell you. In AZ private people can sell guns to residents will no dros paperwork. Just need a receipt. I'm trying to say enough without saying too much. My only word of advice is, give up your CA DL and become a AZ resident. You'll be much happier.

striker3
06-28-2006, 10:50 AM
FFLs are required to make sure that the physical address is correct to establish residency. I am a AZ resident by way of it being my Home of Record for the military. The first time that I tried to buy a firearm, I had a PO box on my DL as well as a PO box for all of my bills. Asked 3 FFLs about it, and each said that they would not sell to me without proof of residency.

I ended up just going down to the DMV and getting my mom's physical address on my DL. Funny thing though. The DMV did not rquire ANY proof of residency for that address...

I do not fault the FFLs in any way. There are clear cut regulations about residency requirements to purchase firearms. If I were in their shoes, I would not risk my license for a person that I did not know.

The people to ask would be the ATF themselves. They can give you a direct answer.

bwiese
06-28-2006, 11:06 AM
Have you seen a law that requires a physical address on both the State issued ID and the utility bill?

No, but if it indicates an address that cannot conceivably be a residence (a PO Box, a private PMB box, even if disguised as 'suite', or a known invalid address) then the FFL wisely would not complete the transaction.

Also, I am fairly sure your DL/ID has to have your residence address on it at time of filing. When you fill out DL forms for application or change of address, you have the option of filling out two areas: one for where you live, one for where you get your mail.


I use a Mailing address on both my ID and my utilities when one is gone for a week or two at a time the mail box at the highway isnt always totally secure and or weather proof.

If I were an FFL and selling you a handgun, I would not accept those utility bills as proof of residence - UNLESS, say, the utility bill delivered to "Sam S. Sam, PO Box 123" had a reference to the actual residence to which power and gas was delivered ("9999 Wayfarout Road") and which matched your driver's license.

SemiAutoSam
06-28-2006, 12:12 PM
FFLs are required to make sure that the physical address is correct to establish residency. I am a AZ resident by way of it being my Home of Record for the military. The first time that I tried to buy a firearm, I had a PO box on my DL as well as a PO box for all of my bills. Asked 3 FFLs about it, and each said that they would not sell to me without proof of residency.

I ended up just going down to the DMV and getting my mom's physical address on my DL. Funny thing though. The DMV did not rquire ANY proof of residency for that address...

I do not fault the FFLs in any way. There are clear cut regulations about residency requirements to purchase firearms. If I were in their shoes, I would not risk my license for a person that I did not know.

The people to ask would be the ATF themselves. They can give you a direct answer.

I guess there arent any FFL's here as thats all im asking is what the "clear cut regulations" are and Im sure this has to do with california gun laws I have been a FFL in another state and do not recall this requirement although I will make a call to sacramento ATF compliance office just to make sure.

I am not asking them to risk their FFL I'm just making an attempt to get a answer about a so called "clear cut regulation" as in what regulation that is IE what law.

Thanks for your help

Dump1567
06-28-2006, 12:37 PM
Let's approach this from a "Free American" perspective and leave out the CA B.S.:mad: A transient with an I.D. card, clean record, and money can buy a gun in AZ. Go get an AZ I.D. card with your AZ address on it. According to the ATF, if you reside in AZ part of the year, you can buy guns in AZ. This includes weekends. Do you meet these requirements? This is up to you to decide and be able to justify. Basically, I don't think anyone would really care. When you walk into a shop, you fill out your ATF form, show your AZ I.D., and they do an instant check. If your clear, you pay and walk out with the gun. One of the questions on the ATF form asks about residency (this is the 90 day thing). This is referring to "non-U.S. citizens". Again, if you feel you quailify according to ATF guidlines, you write AZ in that area. If you have your AZ CCW (8 hour class), it wavies the instant check. This class is even offered to residents of other states and doesn't even include an address on the CCW card. In AZ guns aren't registered like handguns are here. The only record of your purchase is the ATF form and dealers log book that stays at the shop. Remember, don't bring anything back to CA that is illegal. Enjoy your safe full of "free america" guns.

We need to get out of his oppressive CA mind set. Just because you live in this state, doesn't mean the state owns you. We our grown adults and have every right to buy and own firearms.:mad: Now, I'm sure some may disagree with the above and tell you this and that about AZ law, but this is how things are done based on my experience. If all the laws were so cut and dry, we wouldn't be here everyday discussing them. Nor would the CA DOJ be warning us about 58 DA's on every memo they've sent out recently.;)

striker3
06-28-2006, 5:26 PM
I guess there arent any FFL's here as thats all im asking is what the "clear cut regulations" are and Im sure this has to do with california gun laws I have been a FFL in another state and do not recall this requirement although I will make a call to sacramento ATF compliance office just to make sure.

I am not talking about California what so ever. I was talking about buying firearms in Arizona, or anywhere in the US for that matter. This is straight from the ATF FAQ:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nobackfaq2.htm

(F2) May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of another state?

Generally, a firearm may not be lawfully sold by a licensed dealer to a nonlicensee who resides in a state other than the state in which the seller's licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser's state of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her state of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the state where the licensee's business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with state law in the state where the licensee is located and in the state where the purchaser resides and provided the sale complies with all applicable federal laws. [18 U. S. C. 922( b)( 3)]

Any dealer who does not ensure that the purchaser meets residency requirments is in violation of that part of the Penal Code.

What I was stating is that most of the firearms dealers in AZ that I have done business with require something with a physical address. An AZ DL with a pysical address would work, as would a AZ ID in correspondence with a utility bill with a matching name.

Now this is my personal opinion, but I do not think that most dealers would sell to anyone with a CA DL if they are located in AZ.

hdcd
06-28-2006, 6:16 PM
Now this is my personal opinion, but I do not think that most dealers would sell to anyone with a CA DL if they are located in AZ.

You are correct.

SemiAutoSam
06-28-2006, 6:36 PM
I wouldn't expect a FFL to sell a firearm to a individual that did not have domicile in the same area (state) that the FFL was licensed in.

I was speaking of a FFL licensed in califorina selling a firearm to a individual having domicile in california.

SteveK
02-10-2011, 7:01 PM
What if you lived in AZ for a year bought some off roster guns and have to come back to california? Do you have to sell the guns back? Are you stuck with them or can you bring them back to california? I was always unsure about this? I know assault weapons on the rossi list you cant but what about things like a HK45 or say a python. Anything you can buy in calif under private party transfer I assume is ok right?

ENVYGREEN
02-10-2011, 7:07 PM
Holy s&(*!

Westerner
02-10-2011, 8:24 PM
Long time browser, first time poster. First off I just wanted to say what a great website you guys have here and thanks for running and maintaining it. Lots of useful information and discussion. I live in southern CA. I just recently bought a second home about ten minutes outside of Phoenix, AZ. I work in CA so i plan on staying here. I haven't done any research as of yet in regards to the law and whether or not i can purchase and stock non CA legal rifles in my arizona home while still living in CA. A friend of mine told me that i would need to get an Arizona driver's license and relinquish my CA dl. Is that true? Is it necessary to have an AZ dl to purchase non CA legal rifles? Would the DOJ be satisfied with an AZ gov't issued ID card? Thanks in advance.

Dude Just buy all of your stuff at a local gun show over in Arizona. You can also find,and buy stuff listed in the classifieds. I got a buddy that lives in AZ,and he does alot of cash and carry through private sales. It's legal, no FFLs..

dantodd
02-11-2011, 12:35 AM
No im not trying to do anything sneaky I just value my privacy and am not going to make it easy for them to come and collect what I have spent alot of hard earned cash on.

That is if there ever comes a time when they feel californians are too childish to have any firearms to protect themselves with.

That last post had to do with a certian law I was looking for california law or federal law not AZ law.

If a FFL has a problem with my knowing the law and or his giving me his knowledge of the law then he is out of the running IE will not be receiving any of my business.

OK.

If you are buying in AZ then CA laws have NOTHING to do with the purchase. If you believe yourself legal to purchase in AZ based on the ATF FAQ then you should be good to go and CA laws mean nothing unless you bring the guns into CA.

Almost every FFL has a problem knowing the law. Many of them actually DO know the law but the enforcement arms of .gov often threaten to enforce policy rather than law and also pass FUD on to the FFL. DO NOT take the word of an FFL for fact. They will also often refuse to do things that are perfectly legal because they fear they are 'gray' and don't want to try and justify them to LE. If you start asking about "am I legal" you might turn off an FFL who fears you are bending the rules even though you are really just making sure that you are legal.

Xanthus
02-11-2011, 6:13 AM
I was just thinking the same about Nevada. I'd get a second property there to keep some legaly purchased FA rifles. It would make a great addition every time I go to vegas for some gambling and desert shooting.

Wherryj
02-11-2011, 8:41 AM
DL would not be needed.

However, residency is a funny thing. You prob should talk to one of the gun lawyers about this. You need to keep CA, AZ and US/BATF happy.

As I understand it (dimly) you really don't have 'dual residency'. You reside in one place or the other for periods of time. How short or long those are to retrigger a residency period I dunno. (Going back & forth may not necessarily count.)

If you buy a handgun in AZ during your AZ residency you have to fill out registration paperwork when you come back into CA.

I think that it also depends upon whether you are a peon or an elite. For instance, there is a certain gentleman running for mayor of a large midwestern city who has lived in a large east coast city for the past few years-yet is somehow still a resident of the midwest city.

There is also a senator in a midsized western city near a popular tourist city and a "bay" who claims to live in an eastern state to avoid that state's high property tax rate on vacation homes-yet somehow ALSO avoids income tax in said western state AND meets requirements for being a senator.

The IRS would likely be interested in any peon attempting said "residency" claims.

Wherryj
02-11-2011, 9:10 AM
OK.

If you are buying in AZ then CA laws have NOTHING to do with the purchase. If you believe yourself legal to purchase in AZ based on the ATF FAQ then you should be good to go and CA laws mean nothing unless you bring the guns into CA.

Almost every FFL has a problem knowing the law. Many of them actually DO know the law but the enforcement arms of .gov often threaten to enforce policy rather than law and also pass FUD on to the FFL. DO NOT take the word of an FFL for fact. They will also often refuse to do things that are perfectly legal because they fear they are 'gray' and don't want to try and justify them to LE. If you start asking about "am I legal" you might turn off an FFL who fears you are bending the rules even though you are really just making sure that you are legal.

This is not unique to FFLs, it occurs with almost anyone who deals with the government. Physicians are known to overbill MOST state and federal insurance visits because the rules are so arbitrary and draconian.

These agencies use the same tactics, the threaten and financially/criminally pummel to a pulp to "encourage" a provider to more than follow the letter of the law, but also to follow their own policies' intent.

I can't blame FFLs. No one wants to get involved in a pissing match with the government. They have unlimited money and the upper hand in most situations. We may have a Constitution (law) stating that we are "innocent until proven guilty", but that isn't how things work in reality-especially outside a courtroom. Lack of due process is the norm, not the exception.

Untamed1972
02-11-2011, 9:12 AM
I think the you hafta look at the use of the property.

If you owned a rental property in another state that you dont ever live in, stay in, reside in, sleep in or whatever, then you can't claim part resdiency there just because you own it.

Now if you own a vaction home / 2nd that you actually spend part of the year living in, then for the period of the year you are actually living in it, you are residing there. You can buy guns there (which likely will just require getting a state ID card so you can keep your CDL) and keep them there, or if they are CA legal you can bring them back with you and register them in CA. Or by a stretch if those guns are not going to be in the state for more than 60days at a time you should be able to bring them back and forth w/o registering them if you dont want too.

ocspeedracer
02-11-2011, 9:38 AM
In answer to the op's question, yes you can have non-ca legal guns in your AZ resedence and not have to worry about a thing so long as they are kept in AZ. You can obtain these by private party transactions or by buying lowers here and assembling them correctly in AZ.
As far as going through an ffl there, I'm not sure what exactly you would need to do.

I wish AZ would invade and force their laws upon us.

Untamed1972
02-11-2011, 9:44 AM
In answer to the op's question, yes you can have non-ca legal guns in your AZ resedence and not have to worry about a thing so long as they are kept in AZ. You can obtain these by private party transactions or by buying lowers here and assembling them correctly in AZ.
As far as going through an ffl there, I'm not sure what exactly you would need to do.

I wish AZ would invade and force their laws upon us.

All you need is an AZ ID, showing the street address of your AZ residence, which is easily obtainable thru the AZ DMV.

Walk into gunshop, pick out item(s) to be purchase, fill out 4473, FFL will call the instanct background check and have an answer in just a couple of minutes while you wait. If approved, hand dealer money and walk out the door with purchase, or even multiple purchases if you like and all the "hi-caps" you can carry.

You should also be able to apply for an AZ CCW, which once obtained can be presented to an Az FFL at time of purchase and they dont even have to call in for the background check. They just note your CCW number on the 4473 and out the door you go. What takes 10-day and multiple trips to gun-shop here to do, can be done there in less than 10 minutes.

echoarms
02-11-2011, 9:59 AM
Let's approach this from a "Free American" perspective and leave out the CA B.S.:mad: A transient with an I.D. card, clean record, and money can buy a gun in AZ. Go get an AZ I.D. card with your AZ address on it. According to the ATF, if you reside in AZ part of the year, you can buy guns in AZ. This includes weekends. Do you meet these requirements? This is up to you to decide and be able to justify. Basically, I don't think anyone would really care. When you walk into a shop, you fill out your ATF form, show your AZ I.D., and they do an instant check. If your clear, you pay and walk out with the gun. One of the questions on the ATF form asks about residency (this is the 90 day thing). This is referring to "non-U.S. citizens". Again, if you feel you quailify according to ATF guidlines, you write AZ in that area. If you have your AZ CCW (8 hour class), it wavies the instant check. This class is even offered to residents of other states and doesn't even include an address on the CCW card. In AZ guns aren't registered like handguns are here. The only record of your purchase is the ATF form and dealers log book that stays at the shop. Remember, don't bring anything back to CA that is illegal. Enjoy your safe full of "free america" guns.

We need to get out of his oppressive CA mind set. Just because you live in this state, doesn't mean the state owns you. We our grown adults and have every right to buy and own firearms.:mad: Now, I'm sure some may disagree with the above and tell you this and that about AZ law, but this is how things are done based on my experience. If all the laws were so cut and dry, we wouldn't be here everyday discussing them. Nor would the CA DOJ be warning us about 58 DA's on every memo they've sent out recently.;)
Exactly correct. You can get an Arizona ID card with your new house's address. ATF specifically says if you have two houses, you can buy guns where you are at the time. Tax laws, schools, etc. have mandates about time spent where that establishes residency. ATF does not and I challenge someone to show where they lay this out.