PDA

View Full Version : AP rifle bullets


mousegun
06-23-2006, 10:32 AM
Can someone help me out here?

Anyone try to buy .308 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (not ammo), either from out of state or locally? Seems there's just about 100% consensus that these things are CA illegal, but I don't find that anywhere in the California Penal Code. In fact, AP ammo "primarily designed for use in rifles" is exempt (CPC §12323(b)), and the CPC doesn't even cover components. Even called the DOJ and got a confirmation from their resident enforcement officer on these points.

Why is everyone so paranoid? I even got invited to leave Turner's just for bringing up the subject. Was informed by a counter goob that he “had 20 years experience in this business and knew what he was talking about!”

What's going on here? Where's the FUD coming from? Or am I so naive I can't smell the coffee?

adamsreeftank
06-23-2006, 10:40 AM
A LEO friend of mine told me that once the Thomson Contender came out, any "rifle" rounds that could be fired in the pistol were now considered "pistol" rounds. So 308 and 223 AP is now illegal. The penalties are VERY steep for EACH round you have.

PanzerAce
06-23-2006, 10:42 AM
A LEO friend of mine told me that once the Thomson Contender came out, any "rifle" rounds that could be fired in the pistol were now considered "pistol" rounds. So 308 and 223 AP is now illegal. The penalties are VERY steep for EACH round you have.

that doesnt seem right. The only real rifle round that I recal as being illegal because of AP is the 7.62x39, and that is because someone built a pistol for it. IIRC, they were even told by the ATF that all the steel core x39 would be illegal if they decided to build the gun....

mousegun
06-23-2006, 10:51 AM
Yeah. But I've spent 17 years working around LEOs in the OCSheriff's department, and none of them ever heard of that. As I stated before, DOJ enforcement says it's OK.

I could find no reference to conversion of rifle ammunition to pistol by commercial access to a manufactured pistol for that particular rifle ammunition. In any case CPC §12032(b) exempts it by definition. Any references that confirm what your LEO told you?

The Soup Nazi
06-23-2006, 10:53 AM
that doesnt seem right. The only real rifle round that I recal as being illegal because of AP is the 7.62x39, and that is because someone built a pistol for it. IIRC, they were even told by the ATF that all the steel core x39 would be illegal if they decided to build the gun....

Heh, you'd be referring to Olympic Arms signing a deal with the devil by manufacturing that pistol even though all the other companies told them the consequences of their actions. I'm surprised Brady or IANSA hasn't created their own weapons factory to produce a pistol for every caliber to make anything that "COULD BE AP" even though there is a general consensus that the Chinese surplus didn't have the capability to pierce armor.

stevie
06-23-2006, 11:16 AM
AP bullets can be purchased, tracers cannot.

tpliquid1
06-23-2006, 11:26 AM
M855 ammo consider AP right?

mousegun
06-23-2006, 11:44 AM
California's AP ammo denfinition is based upon the Federal definition of AP ammo. Here are some links;

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/ap_ammo.txt

As for the original question, AP bullets can be purchased from Hitech ammo online at http://www.hi-techammo.com/

But the definition in CPC §12323(b) has a specific exception for "ammunition designed primarily for use in rifles." Majority of folks think CA AP is pistol and rifle when in fact it's handgun only.

As for the ammo on Hithech's site, CA illegal is still available from some out of state sources, but more and more are refusing to ship to CA. My main question is: why is rifle AP shipping to CA singled out by most sellers as illegal? Especially private sellers on gun auctions and local gun stores and vendors.

stevie
06-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Probably "CYA" by the sellers. CA laws are so crazy, they most believe better safe than sorry attitude.

M855 has a steel core, but is not classified as "AP"

adamsreeftank
06-23-2006, 12:20 PM
I think what applies to Olympic Arms also applies here.

This sure looks like a .308 caliber pistol to me.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976736630.htm

Here's a nice one in .223 (I wouldnt' mind picking it up myself.)

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976704930.htm

xenophobe
06-23-2006, 3:58 PM
M855 ammo consider AP right?

No, M855 is only mild steel core and is not considered AP. M995 AP has a hardened tungsten core.

AP rifle ammo is legal in California. AP pistol ammo= bad news anywhere in the US.

saki302
06-23-2006, 4:13 PM
I think the key with 7.62x39 vs. .308 pistols is the TC pistols are single shot. The 7.62x39 Oly arms gun was a box-fed semiauto. The TC comes in all manner of calibers, including .30-06, which AP ammo is legal for.

-Dave

mousegun
06-23-2006, 4:56 PM
I think the key with 7.62x39 vs. .308 pistols is the TC pistols are single shot. The 7.62x39 Oly arms gun was a box-fed semiauto. The TC comes in all manner of calibers, including .30-06, which AP ammo is legal for.

-Dave

That was what the DOJ said. Pistol has to have a separate identity, not several parts. There is also the concept of "availability through common commercial channels" which is open to interpretation. Right now it seems that the pistol has to be advertised as over the counter, and not a special order for the components. But I'm not sure.

Still leaves open the differentiation between bullets and fixed ammunition. CA allows possession of all ammunition proscribed or not, if primer and propellant are removed (CPC §12324). Why not just bullets if they're not tracers?

uglygun
06-24-2006, 2:18 AM
Details lay in what's available in handguns chambered for rifle rounds, as others have mentioned.


I'm a 50BMG owner/shooter/handloader. ALL of my projectiles are M2 700grn AP projectiles, they are supposedly the more accurate projectile if it comes down to comparing the M2 to the M33.

Both are steel core, only the M2 is a hardened steel core of AP grade.

It ain't banned, neither are the 30cal. components like 30-06M2 AP pulls which do incredible things from a 300WinMag.


The whole widely distributed/available handgun thing is what drives me nuts and I'll avoid loading for any rifle round for which there is a handgun chambered at all costs.

Hunter
06-24-2006, 6:30 AM
A LEO friend of mine told me that once the Thomson Contender came out, any "rifle" rounds that could be fired in the pistol were now considered "pistol" rounds. So 308 and 223 AP is now illegal. The penalties are VERY steep for EACH round you have.


So far only the 7.62x39 has been deemed to be a AP hangun rnd by the ATF. That is why you cannot find it commercially for sale. On the other hand all the .308, 30-06, 50 BMG, AND .223 AP rounds are available. If the ATF had designated these as handgun AP rounds, you would not be able to buy them, regardless of where you are, CA or TX. The only AP rounds that are banned in CA are API or APIT. This is because incendiary and tracers are not allowed in CA due to fire concerns. It just like fireworks being banned in most places in CA.

JPglee1
06-24-2006, 6:58 AM
You can legally load and possess your own AP rounds, you cannot legally buy SURPLUS NATO .308 AP rounds, that is why people reload them with pulled M2 AP .30-06 ammo.

There is absolutely NO restriction to owning AP in California, as long as its NOT 9x19, 45acp, .32acp, etc....


JP

mousegun
06-24-2006, 2:13 PM
That's exactly what the law seems to say, and what the DOJ enforcement officer said with regard to the .308 bullets. So... how d'ya tell the goobs who won't sell to buyers in CA? Especially locals who have pulls available from time to time. I guess paranoia is a good substitute for knowledge....:mad:

xenophobe
06-24-2006, 2:57 PM
you cannot legally buy SURPLUS NATO .308 AP rounds, that is why people reload them with pulled M2 AP .30-06 ammo.

Yes, you can legally buy surplus M993 and M995 AP. IF you can find it. The US Military is not allowed to sell ammunition to the surplus market... that's why it needs to be broken down to the component level.

I have 5.56 and 308 AP that I legally aquired at stores and gun shows. It's pre-Clinton ban US surplus stuff. It's hard to find, but it shows up every once in a while in small amounts. That stuff used to be CHEAP, like the other foreign suprlus. Now it's a buck a round or more...

dwtt
06-24-2006, 4:28 PM
Hi,
where are you located? I'm in the bay area and will phone in an order to
pat's reloading next monday. I'm buying some .50 700-gr AP bullets, and if you
want, I can have some .30 cal bullets added. We'll just split the shipping costs
proportionately since the .50cal bullets weigh a ton. Let me know if you are
interested.

JPglee1
06-24-2006, 4:32 PM
Yes, you can legally buy surplus M993 and M995 AP. IF you can find it. The US Military is not allowed to sell ammunition to the surplus market... that's why it needs to be broken down to the component level.

I have 5.56 and 308 AP that I legally aquired at stores and gun shows. It's pre-Clinton ban US surplus stuff. It's hard to find, but it shows up every once in a while in small amounts. That stuff used to be CHEAP, like the other foreign suprlus. Now it's a buck a round or more...


I meant M61 nato AP:


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm



"7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)"



Thats what I was talking about,

M993 and M995 are something I have never heard about. Thanks for the information.


JP

xenophobe
06-24-2006, 6:29 PM
I meant M61 nato AP:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

"7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)"

Thats what I was talking about,

It is completely legal as a private individual to buy, sell, own and shoot the AP ammo listed on that page. Those laws only prohibit licensed FFLs, C&R holders and Manufacturers from selling any new product on the market. Existing ammo in private civilian hands is exempt, with exception to any state or local laws.

You may freely buy and own AP rifle ammo, including the listed AP ammo. You may buy the dissassembled components and reassemble them. This does not constitute manufacturing. Manufacturing AP ammo is manufacturing the actual projectile itself. As long as you aren't producing your own AP projectiles, or selling reconstituted AP ammo commercially, then you're ok.

M61 AP is not illegal to buy, sell, trade, own or shoot. Finding it is difficult because of the 1994 Crime Bill addendum, no new production AP may be sold to civilians. Don't mistake this with the possession of such ammo, or the private individual sale or trade of such ammo.

7.62x39 AP is still on the market, and as long as you're not buying it from a dealer, but from a private individual, it is legal to purchase. There is no law barring the possession or use of, unless it is used in the commission of a crime.

It is completely legal. Nothing to worry about.

A picture of my AP drawer for the hell of it, 7.62 Nato, 5.56 Nato, 7.62x39 AP, .30 Cal... :
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8167/ap9yw.jpg

mousegun
06-25-2006, 11:25 AM
The thread started with a question as to how to convince "the rest of the world" that it's legal to sell or ship AP bullets to CA residents. It just seems most people are uninformed, and it would be useful to be able to convince 'em otherwise since the private market is seriously clogged with misinformation and assumption, even here in CA.

Thanks for all the input. I still have a problem with how to get a vendor or seller to ship into CA, but at least I know I wasn't off base.

Thanks again. :)

xenophobe
06-25-2006, 3:15 PM
An interesting AP FAQ I just found:

http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/ap_ammo.txt

mousegun
06-26-2006, 11:53 AM
That is an interestng FAQ. Assuming it's current, it looks like the CA statute pretty much parallels it. It looks like the Feds proscribe any AP ammo, bullets or fixed, if a handgun for it was sold at any time by any manufacturer. Interesting that it specifically excludes M2 AP ball.

This clears up for me where a lot of the paranoia is coming from (aside from CA DOJ shenanigans). So, it's OK with the Feds and CA if a private party buys, sells, possesses, reloads, shoots or collects 5.56 ss109, M885 NATO and .30-06 M2 AP ball ammunition or components; everything else is dubious.

..the fog is slowly rising...

xenophobe
06-26-2006, 5:53 PM
everything else is dubious.

No, it is not. That list really means nothing. As long as it isn't armor piercing ammunition specifically designed for a pistol, possession is NOT a felony.

The list is there to determine if a projectile is AP for prosecution of the laws if using such ammo in the commission of the crime.

7.62x39 AP or steel core may NOT be sold by an FFL, Manufacturer or licensed Collector (with certain exception), but owning, buying, selling or trading it as a private individual, or 7.62x51 ammo, or any other caliber is perfectly legal.

Think of it as being like high capacity mags before the FAW ban expired. No new mags could be made, but private ownership of pre-existing mags was fine. The AP ammo laws are just a bit more restrictive, prohibiting commercial availability, while leaving private ownership, sales and use legal. Think of new production AP ammo being "law enforcement only" while old AP ammo is exempt, and you've got half the picture...

mousegun
06-26-2006, 7:20 PM
No, it is not. That list really means nothing. As long as it isn't armor piercing ammunition specifically designed for a pistol, possession is NOT a felony.

The list is there to determine if a projectile is AP for prosecution of the laws if using such ammo in the commission of the crime.

7.62x39 AP or steel core may NOT be sold by an FFL, Manufacturer or licensed Collector (with certain exception), but owning, buying, selling or trading it as a private individual, or 7.62x51 ammo, or any other caliber is perfectly legal.

Think of it as being like high capacity mags before the FAW ban expired. No new mags could be made, but private ownership of pre-existing mags was fine. The AP ammo laws are just a bit more restrictive, prohibiting commercial availability, while leaving private ownership, sales and use legal. Think of new production AP ammo being "law enforcement only" while old AP ammo is exempt, and you've got half the picture...

OK.. then is anything in .30-06 AP legal to sell to a private party in CA from out of state? And if so, why are so many sellers reluctant to sell it? (This was covered earlier as probably a case of "CYA", so it's answered already.) I guess one just buys it when the opportunity arises.

Creeping Incrementalism
07-04-2006, 5:16 PM
Think of new production AP ammo being "law enforcement only" while old AP ammo is exempt, and you've got half the picture...

And the other half is that it's okay to load your own, and California has no special AP laws, right?

xenophobe
07-04-2006, 5:58 PM
Standard steel core and AP rifle ammunition of any caliber is not regulated in California.

elsolo
07-04-2006, 6:34 PM
As a fun 4th of July noisemaker, I put a bunch of .50 AP downrange today. Mild handlioads, but they zipped right through 3/4" steel plate :)
The bullets are cheaper than the primers.

saki302
07-05-2006, 12:05 AM
.50 AP will easily zip through 1" thick steel too!

-Dave

rocknut
10-21-2006, 8:51 PM
I know its an old post, but I have an inch thick steel plate with holes through it from a 30-06.

slick_711
10-21-2006, 9:15 PM
.50 AP will easily zip through 1" thick steel too!

-Dave

lol. It will indeed... I don't know if you mean .50 caliber in general, but .50BMG AP will zip through the entire hull of a tank; however it doesn't retain velocity to exit, so it just richochets around inside killing the entire crew with one round. Just a lil tidbit of info from our boys that were/are in Iraq... (not myself :( )

ohsmily
10-21-2006, 10:06 PM
however it doesn't retain velocity to exit, so it just richochets around inside killing the entire crew with one round. Just a lil tidbit of info from our boys that were/are in Iraq... (not myself :( )

Uh, what boys from Iraq did you talk to? What movie and/or online forum did you hear this "ricochet" theory in?

Shrapnel damage, YES; but bullet "bouncing around inside the tank cabin killing the entire crew with one round" (like the "magic bullet"), Sorry, NO. Again, shrapnel or the result of an armor piercing incendiary round, yes, it can cause severe damage if it pierces the armor. So, perhaps we are talking about the same thing, but your account is a sensationalized version which isn't particularly accurate other than damage is caused.

RANGER295
10-21-2006, 10:22 PM
About a year ago I picked up around 750 .30-06 AP rounds at an estate sale that were mid 1950’s production. The best part about it was that I paid $5 for a crate of the stuff:D . About half of them were in M-1 clips. It blew right through 5/8” steel at 300 yards. It was pretty amazing on a safe door at 100 yards too. I will have to take a picture of the safe door and post it.

I picked up some Norinco 7.62x39 at another estate sale. I don’t know if it was AP but it did attract magnets. I was not impressed with its performance on steel plate.