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View Full Version : No. 4 mk1 Enfield in Afghanistan (pic)


berg
11-07-2010, 7:05 PM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08SR0Cng5E93S/610x.jpg
An Afghan shows his old Lee-Enfield rifle that he uses to defend his family against nomads in Behsud district in Wardak province on July 24, 2008. The dispute erupted when Kuchi nomads moved into Wardak province's Behsud area, about 100 kilometres (60 miles) east of Kabul, in recent months in search of grazing for their animals. Hazaras allege that the nomads, who are ethnic Pashtuns, forced their way in and killed several people, and destroyed houses and crops.

Spiggy
11-07-2010, 7:07 PM
probably came from india/pakistan

neat

Dr.Mauser
11-07-2010, 8:17 PM
LOL just like in Rambo haha

metalliman545
11-07-2010, 8:32 PM
nice, and he has ammo it looks like. i remember i read an article about this reporter who went ther ein the late 70s i believe he was talking about how they had very little ammo. the lee enfield he was given to borrow by the tribe only had 9 bullets and if he shot he had to save the brass to prove he did not steal them.

bigstick61
11-07-2010, 8:42 PM
Rifles like that were prized at one time. Afghanistan before the war with the Soviets was known for its culture of marksmanship. Seems the war killed off most of their good riflemen and prevented the passing on of those skills, although from what I've read some are still around. Neat chest rig for chargers that guy has. Probably home made.

dwa
11-07-2010, 11:03 PM
Rifles like that were prized at one time. Afghanistan before the war with the Soviets was known for its culture of marksmanship. Seems the war killed off most of their good riflemen and prevented the passing on of those skills, although from what I've read some are still around. Neat chest rig for chargers that guy has. Probably home made.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/afghan-marksmanship-pointing-not-aiming/


http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/afghan-marksmen-forget-the-fables/

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/


The Finns circa 1940 are a good example of aimed fire, the afghans, not so much. I think alot of the rep comes from incomplete reports on engagements. If the afghans were born marksmen they would have killed alot more Russians and Americans. If I had to guess where this rumor came from it was press by the British to excuse their poor preformance over 100 years ago. Military men love rumors and stories, just ask them what they heard.

bigstick61
11-07-2010, 11:46 PM
Perhaps, perhaps not.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/afghan-marksmanship-pointing-not-aiming/


http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/afghan-marksmen-forget-the-fables/

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/


The Finns circa 1940 are a good example of aimed fire, the afghans, not so much. I think alot of the rep comes from incomplete reports on engagements. If the afghans were born marksmen they would have killed alot more Russians and Americans. If I had to guess where this rumor came from it was press by the British to excuse their poor preformance over 100 years ago. Military men love rumors and stories, just ask them what they heard.

The same blog also has articles on excellent Taliban marksmen as well. It even linked to a Times article regarding one fighter who has killed several Brits from the same unit with his rifle, sometimes from several hundred yards away. He also killed a Brit sniper trying to hunt him down. There are still men with the right skills out there but they are scarce these days.

The past reputation was by no means entirely based upon myth. Marksmanship was a part of the Afghan culture after their introduction to rifled weapons in the 19th century. It was not extraordinary for a man to hit a target a few hundred yards out with his rifle. There were of course exaggerations like being able to hit saplings or blades of grass from that range but there seems to be no truth to the more fantastic claims. I recall Jeff Cooper writing quite a bit about the Afghans and riflery. In one short piece he wrote he mentioned how the Soviets used to destroy villages where they found Lee-Enfields or Mosin-Nagants and ammo for them as in firefights Afghans armed with such weapons had proved to be rather effective early in the war. Given the impact on the war and other trends at the time it does not seem surprising (from what I have read so far) that the skills largely perished among most of the population. The aforementioned blog actually discusses this history a bit. I found it rather interesting. I'm rather surprised that the blog is a NYT one.

jak77
11-08-2010, 12:14 AM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08SR0Cng5E93S/610x.jpg


Bad trigger finger control!!

eighteenninetytwo
11-08-2010, 6:16 AM
Just as an FYI, it's actually more likely that a No.4 came from the US. In the 80's we shipped A LOT of them over there with a huge amount of milsurp ammo to kill russians, as we figured that it couldn't get tracked back to us. That's why there is so little .303 brit milsurp left compared to 762x54 or 30.06.

gun toting monkeyboy
11-08-2010, 8:33 AM
Also remember that Winchester did a HUGE run of .303 FMJ in the lat 1980s and early 1990s. Some of you guys will remember the plain white boxes. Why do you think they ran that large of a batch of such an obscure round? I loved it because it was great ammo that I could afford when I was a starving student.

There are several books out there that discuss first hand accounts of combat during the Soviet-Afgan war. The bolt action L-E and Mosins were prefered for many of the ambushes because they had better sights, better range, and packed enough punch to get through the Russian body armor. But I really have to agree that Afgan marksmanship seems to have gone downhill. They really were that good at one time, but it doesn't look like it any longer.

4thSBCT
11-08-2010, 8:57 AM
Bad trigger finger control!!

bet you wouldnt say it to his face lol

M. D. Van Norman
11-08-2010, 9:15 AM
Lee-Enfield rifles will be continuing to serve long after we are all dead. :cool:

dwa
11-08-2010, 10:53 AM
The same blog also has articles on excellent Taliban marksmen as well. It even linked to a Times article regarding one fighter who has killed several Brits from the same unit with his rifle, sometimes from several hundred yards away. He also killed a Brit sniper trying to hunt him down. There are still men with the right skills out there but they are scarce these days.

The past reputation was by no means entirely based upon myth. Marksmanship was a part of the Afghan culture after their introduction to rifled weapons in the 19th century. It was not extraordinary for a man to hit a target a few hundred yards out with his rifle. There were of course exaggerations like being able to hit saplings or blades of grass from that range but there seems to be no truth to the more fantastic claims. I recall Jeff Cooper writing quite a bit about the Afghans and riflery. In one short piece he wrote he mentioned how the Soviets used to destroy villages where they found Lee-Enfields or Mosin-Nagants and ammo for them as in firefights Afghans armed with such weapons had proved to be rather effective early in the war. Given the impact on the war and other trends at the time it does not seem surprising (from what I have read so far) that the skills largely perished among most of the population. The aforementioned blog actually discusses this history a bit. I found it rather interesting. I'm rather surprised that the blog is a NYT one.

There's also a "sniper" who was getting at the Marines in Marjah. Turns out it was 3 people, a chechen, a syrian, and someone from somewhere else. In a given population are there people who can shoot sure, however I dont feel it would be accurate to say there is a disproportionately high proportion of marksmen in a population that has a overly high occurrence of cataracts.

mauser98k
11-08-2010, 11:07 AM
the middle east is loaded with left over WWII guns. Enfields, Mausers, Mosin Nagants, etc. they're all over there in the towel heads' caches. poor old veterans have to spend their golden years in the hands of people who can't even clean them properly

smle-man
11-08-2010, 2:51 PM
The white box .303 was contract over run for the CIA. They stopped shipping .303 and switched to 7.62 x 39 when AKs became the predominate Muj long arm. The Lee Enfields went to the second string guys.

Springfield45
11-08-2010, 7:49 PM
The Enfield could be a Khyber pass knock off too. They have been making copies of all kinds of guns for a hundred years.

smle-man
11-08-2010, 8:04 PM
Pretty unusual to see a #4 in that part of the world. The #1 is more common. it could be a POF made #4.

jak77
11-10-2010, 12:14 AM
bet you wouldnt say it to his face lol

Got that right!