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us_citizen
06-19-2006, 8:45 AM
What's the legality of this? I have a friend coming from AZ that wants to bring his registered ar here to shoot while he's here for the week. The only thing I found on the doj site was http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/travel.htm

ohsmily
06-19-2006, 9:09 AM
What's the legality of this? I have a friend coming from AZ that wants to bring his registered ar here to shoot while he's here for the week. The only thing I found on the doj site was http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/travel.htm

No, he can't bring his AR-15 into CA.

TheMan
06-19-2006, 9:27 AM
What's the legality of this? I have a friend coming from AZ that wants to bring his registered ar here to shoot while he's here for the week.

It would depend on who he registered his AR with. If it was registered with CA during the AW registration periods, he can bring it in.

bwiese
06-19-2006, 10:36 AM
If he was a CA resident that registered his Colt AR15 as an assault weapon in 1990-91 or another make/model during the 2000 SB23 registration period he should be OK to bring it back in.... BUT:

Make sure he is not confusing assault weapon registration with the original paperwork (4473, DROS) required to buy the rifle at time of purchase. Many people have been burned by confusing these two: "Gee, officer, it's registered - I filled out the yellow form when I bought it at Blastem Guns way back when..." AW registration is an entirely separate matter and did not happen at time of purchase, and was a separate form filled out in very early 90s or in 2000 (actually, up to Jan 22, 2001).

If he reg'd it but doesn't have CA registration paperwork, he should get dupe copy of reg papers from Calif DOJ in case there are questions. While you are not required to carry AW reg paperwork with your AW, it is prudent - esp as your friend's situation is more complex and could 'smell bad' up front since he's an out of stater and could be initially perceived as illegally importing an AW. There is a possibility that, somehow, his move out of state and change of DL coulda screwed up his registration. (AW regs are not voided when moved out of state.)

us_citizen
06-19-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the responses :)

SemiAutoSam
06-19-2006, 4:55 PM
Bill

SO what your saying is an out of state resident CAN NOT bring his rifle into this state to shoot like in on a vacation even if he can provide the correct credentials like a out of state DL or ID ?

Shane916
06-19-2006, 5:03 PM
Bill

SO what your saying is an out of state resident CAN NOT bring his rifle into this state to shoot like in on a vacation even if he can provide the correct credentials like a out of state DL or ID ?

That is Correct

SemiAutoSam
06-19-2006, 5:14 PM
Can you back that up with LAW ?

Thanks

bwiese
06-19-2006, 6:50 PM
Bill

SO what your saying is an out of state resident CAN NOT bring his rifle into this state to shoot like in on a vacation even if he can provide the correct credentials like a out of state DL or ID?
.
.
.
Can you back that up with law?

Yep, that's what I'm saying. (And yes, I can back up anything I post.)

FYI Calif. gun laws are at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/index.html They're reasonably readable for the big things.

I'm just amaingly curious, why would you even remotely think someone could legally import an assault weapon into CA unless it were registered, as appropriate, in 1999-91 (Roberti-Roos and catchup reg period) or 2000 (SB23 reg period)? What part of PC 12280 don't you understand? It's been discussed here for years, and not just by me.

[The original post in this thread dealt with an out-of-stater that possibly had his AW registered in CA during one of the reg periods. Since AW registrations do not expire or get cancelled due to moving out of state, the original poster's friend can bring it back in if indeed registered.]

In general, an out-of-state resident can bring ordinary firearms into CA (long guns, handguns) as long as they're not prohibited assault weapons. He has 60 days from time of becoming a resident to file registration for each handgun he has since he'd be a personal handgun importer.

But 12280(a) generally prohibits most conduct with assault weapons, esp unregistered ones. Specifically, it bans both importation and manufacture:


12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.
(2) In addition and consecutive to the punishment imposed under paragraph (1), any person who transfers, lends, sells, or gives any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle to a minor in violation of paragraph (1) shall receive an enhancement of one year.
(3) Except in the case of a first violation involving not more than two firearms as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), for purposes of this section, if more than one assault weapon or 50BMG rifle is involved in any violation of this section, there shall be a distinct and separate offense for each.


If you are a nonresident, don't come into CA with anything that is considered assault weapon - unless you lived in CA before and had it specially registered at the appropriate time.

There is a supposed exemption for 'competitions sponsored by a nationally recognized body' but that involves direct travel to & from the competition, and any overnight stays or side trips or extensions to visit other than the competition itself might render this exemption moot. And it'd have to be a major NRA-sanctioned shoot for this law to have even some utility - a tin can shoot at the Lower Hayward Roller Derby League Classic Tin Can Charity Shoot just won't cut it. This purported exemption should NOT be relied upon. It most likely won't stop an arrest in a traffic encounter esp as it's little-known. It might possibly help as a defense after arrest but should not be counted upon. (Also, this exemption - even if vaild - only applies to the gun itself and not hicap magazines!)

I have heard that competetive shooters w/AWs can apply to DOJ for specific-use AW permits for the competition and some short time period surrounding it for transit & overnight stay. This is only rumor, and I have not confirmed if such permits have actually been issued, or if someone was merely requesting one (Again, regardless of issuance of such a permit, hicap magazines are not treated by such, and cannot be imported.)

Any out-of-stater wanting to shoot competitively (or otherwise) in CA with a semiauto should bring a Garand or an M1A without flash hider - or revert to a bolt gun. (I'd add Mini-14 - but those would be laughable for competition since we know 3/4 of 'em don't have minute-of-barn-door accuracy! ;) )

ohsmily
06-19-2006, 7:09 PM
Can you back that up with LAW ?

Thanks

Yep, that's what I'm saying. (And yes, I can back up anything I post.)

FYI Calif. gun laws are at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/index.html They're reasonably readable for the big things.

I'm just amazingly curious, why would you even remotely think someone could legally import an assault weapon into CA unless it were registered, as appropriate, in 1999-91 (Roberti-Roos and catchup reg period) or 2000 (SB23 reg period)? What part of PC 12280 don't you understand? It's been discussed here for years, and not just by me.


Bill, Sam is slower on some things than other folks. In a post a while back, he said it is because of some disability of his. So, I guess chalk it up to that; everyone should cut Sam some slack. It was nice of you to cut and paste the information that is right on the DOJ website for him, though.

P.S. I love how he emphasized "LAW" in caps as though he thought you were going to be at a loss and unable to provide support. Oh well, now he knows.

SemiAutoSam
06-19-2006, 7:27 PM
Yep, that's what I'm saying. (And yes, I can back up anything I post.)

FYI Calif. gun laws are at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/index.html They're reasonably readable for the big things.

I'm just amaingly curious, why would you even remotely think someone could legally import an assault weapon into CA unless it were registered, as appropriate, in 1999-91 (Roberti-Roos and catchup reg period) or 2000 (SB23 reg period)? What part of PC 12280 don't you understand? It's been discussed here for years, and not just by me.

[The original post in this thread dealt with an out-of-stater that possibly had his AW registered in CA during one of the reg periods. Since AW registrations do not expire or get cancelled due to moving out of state, the original poster's friend can bring it back in if indeed registered.]

In general, an out-of-state resident can bring ordinary firearms into CA (long guns, handguns) as long as they're not prohibited assault weapons. He has 60 days from time of becoming a resident to file registration for each handgun he has since he'd be a personal handgun importer.

But 12280(a) generally prohibits most conduct with assault weapons, esp unregistered ones. Specifically, it bans both importation and manufacture:


12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.
(2) In addition and consecutive to the punishment imposed under paragraph (1), any person who transfers, lends, sells, or gives any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle to a minor in violation of paragraph (1) shall receive an enhancement of one year.
(3) Except in the case of a first violation involving not more than two firearms as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), for purposes of this section, if more than one assault weapon or 50BMG rifle is involved in any violation of this section, there shall be a distinct and separate offense for each.


If you are a nonresident, don't come into CA with anything that is considered assault weapon - unless you lived in CA before and had it specially registered at the appropriate time.

There is a supposed exemption for 'competitions sponsored by a nationally recognized body' but that involves direct travel to & from the competition, and any overnight stays or side trips or extensions to visit other than the competition itself might render this exemption moot. And it'd have to be a major NRA-sanctioned shoot for this law to have even some utility - a tin can shoot at the Lower Hayward Roller Derby League Classic Tin Can Charity Shoot just won't cut it. This purported exemption should NOT be relied upon. It most likely won't stop an arrest in a traffic encounter esp as it's little-known. It might possibly help as a defense after arrest but should not be counted upon. (Also, this exemption - even if vaild - only applies to the gun itself and not hicap magazines!)

I have heard that competetive shooters w/AWs can apply to DOJ for specific-use AW permits for the competition and some short time period surrounding it for transit & overnight stay. This is only rumor, and I have not confirmed if such permits have actually been issued, or if someone was merely requesting one (Again, regardless of issuance of such a permit, hicap magazines are not treated by such, and cannot be imported.)

Any out-of-stater wanting to shoot competitively (or otherwise) in CA with a semiauto should bring a Garand or an M1A without flash hider - or revert to a bolt gun. (I'd add Mini-14 - but those would be laughable for competition since we know 3/4 of 'em don't have minute-of-barn-door accuracy! ;) )

Thanks bill

I did read that at the doj website I took it a bit different SO what your saying in effect is if someone comes in from out of state they can bring in an OLL that either has a fixed mag or is without (so called) pistolgrip ?

But they can't bring in a so called "assault weapon"


ohsmily

Have you ever been sued for libel

I would appreciate it if you would delete the words of defamation you posted about me post haste

REDHORSE
06-19-2006, 7:39 PM
az buddy to ca with AR

Take a look at this clause.


CALIFORNIA CODES
PENAL CODE
SECTION 12280

(m) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not apply to the possession and importation of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle into this state by a nonresident if all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The person is attending or going directly to or coming directly from an organized competitive match or league competition that involves the use of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle.

(2) The competition or match is conducted on the premises of one of the following:
(A) A target range that holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range.
(B) A target range of a public or private club or organization that is organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets.

(3) The match or competition is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by, a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms.

(4) The assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is transported in accordance with Section 12026.1 or 12026.2.

(5) The person is 18 years of age or over and is not in a class of persons prohibited from possessing firearms by virtue of Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

bwiese
06-19-2006, 8:37 PM
Thanks bill
I did read that at the doj website I took it a bit different SO what your saying in effect is if someone comes in from out of state they can bring in an OLL that either has a fixed mag or is without (so called) pistolgrip ?

But they can't bring in a so called "assault weapon" ?


Why did you take it 'a bit differently'? It's simple and clear.

And an OLL without certain sets of evil features (fixed mag or w/o pistolgrip) is not an AW defined by PC 12276.1 (as long as 30" min length) and is thus just a regular long gun and is not an AW.

bwiese
06-19-2006, 8:45 PM
Take a look at this clause.
<DOJ discussion of competition exemption...>


I dicussed this in my post above. This law is not carefully thought through and one should not rely on the competition exemption.

Most people driving from out of state into CA for a gun competition will not be able to go straight in and straight out without stopping overnight, etc. There is really not a lot of protection here and there's a lot of legroom for a DA to bring AW importation/possession/transport charges for the times outside the competition. Many folks going to competition may stay for a day or two and visit relatives, do the tourism gig, etc. and that would be EXTREMELY problematic given the structure of the law.

It is not sane to rely on a poorly defined area of law when the consequences could be multiple felony charges, expensive legal fees, and loss of weapons. Again, the law regarding competition matters you quoted may be useful as a defense, but if a cop sees an unregistered AW with an out of state owner/vehicle, you're more than likely gonna get popped first.

In the same way, out-of-staters should NOT rely of FOPA '86 (Firearms Owners Protction Act) for transit of AWs thru CA. It may be useful as a defense, but it ain't gonna stop a bust.

I reiterate again, a non-Californian should NOT bring in an unregistered assault weapon. If he lived in CA and did indeed register his assault weapon at the right time, he should make sure he has a copy of his paperwork in case there's an AW database problem - esp given out-of-state situation possibly messing things up...

bwiese
06-19-2006, 8:49 PM
Bill, Sam is slower on some things than other folks. In a post a while back, he said it is because of some disability of his. So, I guess chalk it up to that; everyone should cut Sam some slack. It was nice of you to cut and paste the information that is right on the DOJ website for him, though.


Perhaps all the colloidal silver is slowing his thought processes down. Or, perhaps, his 'straw man' is taking up too much of his mindshare ;)

I'm sure Sam's a nice guy, but with his reading of the law, his attitude toward not paying taxes he expressed a couple of weeks ago, etc. he's likely not too long amongst the unjailed.


P.S. I love how he emphasized "LAW" in caps as though he thought you were going to be at a loss and unable to provide support.

Hahah. Although he could've been meaning "DOJ sentiment in a memo" vs actual law, which is indeed an important consideration these days :)

kantstudien
06-19-2006, 8:50 PM
Wait, which is "libel" and which is "slander?" I get confused...:D

If your buddy was attending a "sanctioned competition" (other than Uncle Billy Bob's Tin Can Shoot) he could bring in his AW for competition purposes and then promptly remove it from the state. But, unlike Bill, I am too lazy to look it up for you.

bwiese
06-19-2006, 8:53 PM
Wait, which is "libel" and which is "slander?" I get confused...:D

If your buddy was attending a "sanctioned competition" (other than Uncle Billy Bob's Tin Can Shoot) he could bring in his AW for competition purposes and then promptly remove it from the state. But, unlike Bill, I am too lazy to look it up for you.

Yes, but the directness is a very troubling aspect of the law and is so murky it can't be trusted - as it leaves possibility for AW importation wide-open by a DA, especially for 'how long' around the competition you are in state.

Expect it to be possibly useful as a defense, but not enough to stop an out of stater from being busted for illegal AW possession, transport and importation if a traffic stop happens.

The risk of multiple felonies and a possible $25K+ legal bill plus repeated trips to/from CA during your trial is not worth it.

xLusi0n
06-20-2006, 5:21 PM
Better yet, can you back that up with LOGIC?

JPglee1
06-20-2006, 5:31 PM
Perhaps all the colloidal silver is slowing his thought processes down. Or, perhaps, his 'straw man' is taking up too much of his mindshare ;)

I'm sure Sam's a nice guy, but with his reading of the law, his attitude toward not paying taxes he expressed a couple of weeks ago, etc. he's likely not too long amongst the unjailed.





Is this what Calguns is gonna become, another **** talking swill bucket of a website??

I prize Calguns for NOT being this way, lets all work together and keep this an enjoyable, respectful forum.

We all have our opinions, but having such opinions shouldn't justify personal attacks...


JMHO. If you wanna flame me do it with a PM and lets keep the board on track.



J