PDA

View Full Version : 2nd Thoughts Re: Gunsafe Affidavit


COILSPRING
06-18-2006, 1:02 PM
I just purchased a handgun for the first time in many years. Doing the PPT @ a local Turners. I have a early Sportsman Steel gunsafe. I spoke to a salesguy @ a different Turners who said that if you use the Gunsafe Affidavit the BATF can inspect your gunsafe @ any time:( . I have nothing to hide but I don't like the idea of anyone having the right to invade my privacy. Is this true? I'm starting to think that perhaps I should just buy the $6.95 lock and tear up the Gunsafe Affidavit. I asked the guy @ Turners if I could just bring my own lock when I pick up the pistol, he said that he would have to sell me a lock to have a receipt to attach to the paperwork. I was in a smaller gunshop where a different guy said that you can bring your own lock... What do you guys think? I guess it might not be the smartest thing to sign a affadavit stating that I have a gunsafe... Here's another question, is there a list of approved gunsafes? My sportsman Steel safe is over twenty years old.
Thank you for your help and opinions!!
Coilspring

Yute
06-18-2006, 1:21 PM
Why would the BATF come in to enforce a californian law?

SemiAutoSam
06-18-2006, 1:29 PM
I think he ment California doj but think about it. Unless it states on the form what basis would the doj or atf have to come and have a look at what you have in your safe.

Yute
06-18-2006, 1:34 PM
good point! I guess the question is then - how many people really have had their safes inspected by the doj? I doubt very many...

COILSPRING
06-18-2006, 1:53 PM
I'm still kind of thinking that maybe it would be a good seven dollars spent to not have to tell the DOJ that I have a gunsafe... Am I being overly paranoid?
Coilspring

HillBilly
06-18-2006, 1:56 PM
I also have to think that even if that were the case and they had a warrant, they only have reason to inspect that you in fact own a ca approved safe as signed on the affidavit. You can see when type of safe I have without looking inside. If they want the combo..

Go fish!

JPglee1
06-18-2006, 2:30 PM
I'm still kind of thinking that maybe it would be a good seven dollars spent to not have to tell the DOJ that I have a gunsafe... Am I being overly paranoid?
Coilspring

Yes.

Dude, you DROS'd the gun, they know you got a gun, who cares if they know you got a safe.

If anything a safe means you're safety conscious and less likely to have any problems then someone who just tosses em against the wall in the closet (like me haha)

Don't trip out so much man, or I'm gonna have to fit you with a tinfoil-hat of your own (I am the CEO of the Tinfoil-Hat Alliance, AKA THA) hahaha


J

Black_Talon
06-18-2006, 3:34 PM
Here's another question, is there a list of approved gunsafes?

Yes:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm

bwiese
06-22-2006, 1:30 PM
Relax. Paranoia is sometimes a useful trait, but not for this.

This is more gunshop BS. I think sometimes there's more misinformation at gunshops than in the general public! Furthermore, the BATF wouldn't even care.

The ONLY case where something like this could remotely happen is if state or local authorities developed enough information to somehow show that you fraudulently completed the affadavit and did not, in fact have the safe at the time you completed the affadavit. But this is very doubtful - I think the dealer retains those affadavits and just doesn't release the gun without one; Sacramento doesn't know the make/model of your safe or even if you have one.

booknut
06-22-2006, 2:57 PM
I'm starting to think that perhaps I should just buy the $6.95 lock and tear up the Gunsafe Affidavit. I asked the guy @ Turners if I could just bring my own lock when I pick up the pistol, he said that he would have to sell me a lock to have a receipt to attach to the paperwork.

I haven't heard of the law changing recently, but you can buy an 'approved lock' anywhere you want. You don't have to buy it from the place you pick you pistol up from.
You just have to have a copy of the receipt to show that it was purchased within 30 days of picking up your gun.

I've run into two stores that give you a refund when you return gun locks you no longer need. In other words, I've never seen it written in the law that you have to keep the lock you use to pick up your gun with. If you have the proper storage ability at home, you might not need the lock after the gun arrives safely there.

Lots of stores sell Ca. approved locks... gun stores, hardware stores, sporting goods stores, etc.

Some store receipts don't print out very well off the old cash registers either. Sometimes the ink is a bit hard to see. That could be a problem.

Quite a few businesses use computers.
The receipt is just a computer printout much like what your printer at home does, it just has a business name, address, phone, purchase information, "Thank you for your business" at the bottom, etc.

No one seems to care where I buy my locks from as long as I have a piece of paper that says I purchased it during the right timeframe.

Guns R Tools
06-22-2006, 7:06 PM
I went to the Walmart and bought the locks that were CA DOJ approved. It was blued cable locks. After I picked up the guns from Big 5, I went back to Walmart and got refund on the locks. The locks were never opened, just shown along with receipt and they make photo copy of the lock's receipt for the file.

I use free locks I got while back for the rifles now. Works for me.

xenophobe
06-22-2006, 9:28 PM
Do you ever seriously think the DOJ will come to your house to inspect if you have a gun safe?

DOJ Agent "Judge, we need to get a Search Warrant"

Judge "Why?"

DOJ "To check Safe Affidavit Wavier Compliance"

Judge ...*blank stare*


Riiiiight.

Ratters
06-22-2006, 11:40 PM
There is nothing in the law that allows the DOJ to come into your house and inspect your safe just cause you sign the affidavit. Go to the DOJ's website and try to find it. It's not there.

I've filled out well over 30 of the things and no one's come knocking yet.

jessegpresley
06-26-2006, 1:46 AM
I hope you posted this topic using a computer other than the one at your house. Because now the BATF/DOJ safe inspectors can track your IP address and come rapelling down from their Blackhawk copters to whisk you, your family and your heretofore secret gun safe away in the middle of the night.

JPglee1
06-26-2006, 8:01 AM
My FFL will "sell" me a lock, and then let me "sell" it back to him after the transfer... makes it handy and painless hehehe.


JP

AntiBubba 2.1
06-26-2006, 11:51 PM
Even if it were true, I'd still be far more concerned about tweakers busting down the door than government-approved thugs. The thought of one of my stolen guns being used to kill someone is unbearable.

jessegpresley
06-27-2006, 5:00 PM
My FFL will "sell" me a lock, and then let me "sell" it back to him after the transfer... makes it handy and painless hehehe.


JP

My FFL just gives me a gun lock.

JPglee1
06-27-2006, 5:02 PM
Even if it were true, I'd still be far more concerned about tweakers busting down the door than government-approved thugs. The thought of one of my stolen guns being used to kill someone is unbearable.

Why? Would it be unbearable if someone stole your hammer or a garden rake and killed someone with it?

A gun is a tool, no more no less. If some spun monkey ganks your gun and shoots someone, its thru HIS actions and decisions, not the guns...

I would be pissed someone stole my gun, but I wouldn't be feeling responsible for them shooting someone. It would be a sad situation, but not the gun owner's fault.


This is just my opinion :)

JP

Pokey
06-28-2006, 10:16 AM
Why? Would it be unbearable if someone stole your hammer or a garden rake and killed someone with it?

A gun is a tool, no more no less. If some spun monkey ganks your gun and shoots someone, its thru HIS actions and decisions, not the guns...

I would be pissed someone stole my gun, but I wouldn't be feeling responsible for them shooting someone. It would be a sad situation, but not the gun owner's fault.


This is just my opinion :)

JP

+1
Well said.
Especially the pissed part, it would be months before you saw your gun, if ever.

Pokey
06-28-2006, 10:21 AM
What most people forget is guns are just another tool. A tools purpose is to magnify the effort or intent of the user. 'humans' can kill with any tool or none at all. Some friends and I tried to think of anything that could not be used as a weapon. Its pretty damn tough to do (we were having trouble with toe nail clippings:D ). As JP said it is the user, not the tool.

Sorry for the rambling

Silverback
06-28-2006, 10:46 AM
I'm still kind of thinking that maybe it would be a good seven dollars spent to not have to tell the DOJ that I have a gunsafe... Am I being overly paranoid?
Coilspring


I agree with Bwiese but I don't think you can ever be overly paranoid when dealing with the Socialist State of Kalifornistan. :D

jbsocal
06-29-2006, 5:28 PM
If the law requires a receipt less than 30 days old for a gun lock, does the receipt "have" to be a business receipt? I could be purchasing a lock from someone who has an excess -- who provided me with a handwritten or computer printed receipt. Would that be a problem?

tenpercentfirearms
06-30-2006, 6:42 AM
I just took a serious look at 12088.1 and I have come to the conclusion that no one ever needs to bring in their receipt dated within 30 days for a gun transaction. Read through it yourself.12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a
dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices
and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference
to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the
physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on
the roster for use with the device.
e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms. So if your firearm includes or is accompanied by an approved FSD, you are following the law. If you want to be exempt from having your firearm include or be accompanied by a FSD, then you need to bring in a receipt showing purchase within the last 30 days. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT SAYS WHERE A GUN LOCK HAS TO COME FROM! So as long as I, the FFL, make sure the firearm is accompanied by an approved FSD, you don't need to be exempt from 12088.1(a). And guess what the law does not specificy where I get my locks from to accompany your firearm. Some manufacturers include them with their guns. Cool. You might bring a lock in and give it to me. If I am reading 12088.1(a) correctly, it doesn't matter as long as the lock is with the gun. I might be reading it wrong so I want your comments on this.

subway
12-08-2006, 7:47 PM
re: the concerns about the affidavit

I did the first steps for a transfer today (began 10 day waiting period) and took home the safe affadavit because who remembers the model number of their safe? But reading through it right now, I have noticed the STRANGEST THING - there is NO PLACE on the form for my name! (or address or other identifying info!)

The dealers name and address is printed on the form; there is a space for the safe brand and model number. But the only place for personal info about me is a signature line and a place for my initials if I don't have my receipt handy! I don't know about you, but I defy anyone to read one single letter from my signature - my name might as well be "Safe Whatsafe"

Am I missing something or is this the weirdest form pertaining to firearms?

Fjold
12-08-2006, 8:02 PM
Random thoughts:

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.

My signature is pointy scribble, round scribble.

subway
12-08-2006, 8:23 PM
But seriously, does my dealer have an altered version of the form (like he scanned it into his computer to add in his company info and accidentally erased the buyer's name and address lines....) or are the forms really without any place for the buyer's name and address? In which case all this concern about the affidavit was pointless because the form is essentially anonymous?

Rumpled
12-08-2006, 10:55 PM
The forms only have a spot for signature and date.
Here's a link to the form on the DOJ website.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d63da98acd21dd456af4b156b7f2e 5a

Edit - link might be bad, but it's linked on this page
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/

I always bring my own in since I can never remember my model #.

And Wes, I think you've got it right. But aren't a lot of the the manufacturers locks not approved?

Looks to me that as a purchaser, I need a receipt and all that - but if a FFL or seller provides it to me, no receipt etc.

halifax
12-09-2006, 2:37 AM
Anyone notice how woefully out-of-date the roster of approved locking devices is? I see many locking devices that say on the packages "California DOJ Approved" yet the aren't listed on the DOJ website. For example, MASTERLOCK 107DSPT clearly states "This is a California-approved firearms safety device...". It is not listed on DOJ website search.

If someone brings a Master Lock 107DSPT and a receipt to his FFL, the FFL will not find this model or any firearm approved for use with this "CA DOJ Approved locking device" and hence can't legally release the firearm to the buyer. Is this true?

Do FFLs really look all this up when the customer brings a lock in with them?

rips31
12-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Do FFLs really look all this up when the customer brings a lock in with them?
last time i bought a gun, the ffl actually wrote down the sn of the lock on my dros form.