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mightymike
06-17-2006, 6:09 AM
I just shot my new OLL Stag 15 for the first time and it makes a loud springing sound during every shot. My buddy told me this is normal and he also said that there is some part to help reduce that noise. Any thoughts.

Thanks

NRAhighpowershooter
06-17-2006, 6:28 AM
it's normal.. however I don't like that screen door sound myself.. so I LIGHTLY lube the spring with white lithium grease... and after 3K rounds through my HP service rifle still no noise and no migration of grease...

koiloco
06-17-2006, 9:07 AM
super normal :)

rocknut
06-17-2006, 10:03 AM
Another plug for the grease. Works well.

fal_762x51
06-17-2006, 11:06 AM
That's how the toy is suppose to sound when you use it.

bwiese
06-17-2006, 11:15 AM
I actually like the 'sproing' sound. It lets me know the rifle's working OK.

When I've had some cycling issues in ARs I'm debugging, a change in 'sproing' lets me know there's a problem (weak cycling/gas leak, heavy cycling = 'overfunction', bolt carrier reduced velocity due to dragging/resistance, lame ammo, etc.)

That sproing sound is your friend. Learn to love it.

JPglee1
06-17-2006, 11:50 AM
I actually like the 'sproing' sound. It lets me know the rifle's working OK.




Thats one of the reasons I hate ARs

well that and the fact it poos where it eats, and has so many locking lugs on the bolt.


I have shot so many ARs that go BOOOOING BOOOOOING BOOOOOING makes me feel like its a cheap spring airsoft gun haha.


J

bwiese
06-17-2006, 11:54 AM
hate ARs... well that and the fact it poos where it eats,


Not that bad. ARs work just fine - you can shoot 1500+ rds in a day and just clean at night. If your AR can't do that, it's substandard.


and has so many locking lugs on the bolt.

Dude, that's why ARs, in general, are so accurate! Relatively little rotation to lock/unlock the bolt, and the bolt is more likely to settle back to its orig position w/little variance.

Don't complain about a benefit.

If your ARs are not working right, you must be doing something wrong.

JPglee1
06-17-2006, 12:06 PM
Not that bad. ARs work just fine - you can shoot 1500+ rds in a day and just clean at night. If your AR can't do that, it's substandard.




Dude, that's why ARs, in general, are so accurate! Relatively little rotation to lock/unlock the bolt, and the bolt is more likely to settle back to its orig position w/little variance.

Don't complain about a benefit.

If your ARs are not working right, you must be doing something wrong.

Well thats a benefit in your opinion and a liability in mine... More locking lugs = more surface area for debris to catch on (carbon/sand,etc)

Accuracy to me is a moot point on a mid range rifle like an AR or AK... Its only good to 200yds or so (IMHO, I know the "merits" of 223 vs 762x39,etc)

I'd love to see someone make an AR-15 clone that had a machined steel upper receiver with a steel bolt using AK-47 style locking lugs, a gas piston system like a FAL and LOOSE tolerances....

You said an AR will run 1500 rounds w/out cleaning? What about at 2500 or 3500rds?

I know a FAL will run to 12,000 rds haha (ol' dirty on FALfiles) and an AK will do it almost indefinitately.


Im not starting an AK/AR flame war so Ill leave it at this post and not keep going on.

Everyone has different expectations of what a rifle should/can do...I see a rifle as a survival tool only, I have rifles that I plan to use to keep myself alive someday should the need arise (natural disaster, invasion, shtf, zombies, etc)I can't afford to have target and survival guns so I have to go for the best combo of both, thats why I like combloc guns and not AR 15s...


AR's are *****en paper punchers and decent battle rifles IMHO, but the combloc weapons are made to be abused and keep working, thats what I want in a SHTF weapon.


Sorry for long winded post.


JP

bwiese
06-17-2006, 1:27 PM
Well thats a benefit in your opinion and a liability in mine... More locking lugs = more surface area for debris to catch on (carbon/sand,etc)

Less movement required = less energy to unlock/lock, so a bit of dirt in there shouldn't hurt too much.

Accuracy to me is a moot point on a mid range rifle like an AR or AK... Its only good to 200yds or so (IMHO, I know the "merits" of 223 vs 762x39,etc)

Don't give up something that comes for near-free. And w/77gr ammo the AR holds its own at long ranges. And from a 20" bbl 300yds is very reasonable even with 55gr or 62gr ammo.


I'd love to see someone make an AR-15 clone that had a machined steel upper receiver with a steel bolt using AK-47 style locking lugs, a gas piston system like a FAL and LOOSE tolerances....

Then it's not an AR 'clone' other than surface contours. Go get a 223 AK if you want that. Even the gas piston AR variants (HK, Colt, POF) use the AR bolt and locking lug system.


You said an AR will run 1500 rounds w/out cleaning? What about at 2500 or 3500rds?

Realistically that's all most folks, even in combat, would fire in a day. Jarhead paratroop friends have gone long weekends in training where 5K rounds expended w/o cleaning. If you can't take 2 min to clean in 3500+ rounds you're very, very busy.

I know a FAL will run to 12,000 rds haha (ol' dirty on FALfiles) and an AK will do it almost indefinitately.

Reports on AKs from RKIs in the sandbox reveal failures/stopages in the AR/M16 range. The vaunted reliability ain't there. Perhaps it's because they're old/Iraqi/non-Russian, perhaps it's crap ammo. But AR vs AR reliability is a myth if even basic AR upkeep is maintained and decent ammo used.

And given that an AR takes 3 mins to clean for guaranteed operational reliability, it's a relatively moot point - except for cooks'n'clerks like poor Jessica Lynch, who learned it's an adventure, not just a job and benefits. (Actually I hope her unit leadership chain was cited for poor attention to weapons details.)

Combloc guns (AKs) were designed for semimotivated uneducated expendable sh*t troops w/sh*t training fighting sh*t wars in sh*t lands at short ranges.

onley11
06-17-2006, 5:51 PM
Accuracy for a professional soldier or professed rifleman is of paramount importance. It's not "did you touch them with a bullet?" it's "did you hit the middle and make them fall down?"

I need to be able to hit an exposed boot or head at 100 yards. A lot of time, that's all you're gonna get. I need to know that the gun will do it's job. Part of that job is hitting my target every time, if I do my part. I have carried an a2 for long enough to earn four expert rifle badges. (Marine Type) Only had a few jams in four years of beat down weapons, all due to magazines that got smashed on the feedlips. Course the official religion of the Marine Corps is rifle cleaning, and we worshipped every day.:D

WhiteGT
06-17-2006, 6:10 PM
Slightly off topic:

And given that an AR takes 3 mins to clean for guaranteed operational reliability.......

For arguments sake, im going to assume 3 min is all that is neccesary.:D Given you only have a maximum of 3-5 min to clean your AR in whatever situation, what specific components would you clean for reliable operation? Carbon build on the cam and cam hole on bolt? Just the firing pin? Im still fairly new to the whole AR game and still learning little facts here and there.

Mudvayne540ld
06-17-2006, 6:18 PM
If you dont like the "sproing" sound, get one of these.
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=276964

bwiese
06-17-2006, 6:30 PM
For arguments sake, im going to assume 3 min is all that is neccesary.:D Given you only have a maximum of 3-5 min to clean your AR in whatever situation, what specific components would you clean for reliable operation? Carbon build on the cam and cam hole on bolt? Just the firing pin? Im still fairly new to the whole AR game and still learning little facts here and there.


breakup rifle into halves; remove charging handle and bolt carrier assy;
clean bbl w/5-6 passes thru barrel/chamber with boresnake using CLP;
clean chamber and bbl extension areas w/CLP and chamber brush;
another boresnake pass or two w/dry boresnake
lube bbl extension lugs w/CLP;
use some CLP and brush/wipe down interior of upper receiver, including charging handle channel; leave slightly 'wet' w/CLP.
separate bolt from carrier: inspect cam pin for fractures and wipe it clean w/CLP. Use CLP/brush to clean bolt face and lugs; exercise extractor and ejector to distribute CLP. Inspect bolt for wear/failure. Lube bolt lugs and bolt body w/CLP.
scrub inside bolt carrier's opening for bolt. Leave light CLP lube there.
cleanup/wipe down outside of bolt carrier with CLP. Leave a tad wet.
inspect carrier key for loosening; inspect gas tube and bolt carrier key for mutual wear
wipe down firing pin, clear collar of any residue/debris; clean cotter pin w/CLP.
wipe down axial part of charging handle w/CLP.
put a few drops of CLP in lower's fire control action areas, as well as pivot & disassembly pins. Cycle lower's action by cocking and pulling trigger several times to distribute CLP [...BUT LET HAMMER FALL ON YOUR FINGER - DO NOT LET HAMMER FALL ALL THE WAY DOWN TO RECEIVER WALL AS RECEIVER MAY CRACK OR DEVELOP FISSURES THAT TURN INTO A CRACK LATER.] Look for any parts 'outta whack', misaligned, etc. Turn exposed fire control compartment upside down so any possible firing debris may drop out and not wedge itself further inside.
Reassemble rifle. Insert empty magazine and perform basic function check: cock and dry fire, check safety operation, and thenalso charge action while continuously holding down trigger: when trigger is released, you should hear/feel a 'click' upon release. Rack action several times to distribute CLP around receiver.
If you have iron sights make sure they're dry around post and ghost ring area - CLP can make them shiny and hard to use. (Cigar ash can help de-shine).
If you have an optic (Aimpoint or scope) this is a good time to clean the lenses, ensure that the mount is not loose, etc.


Works like a charm. Sounds like a lot but you get into the rhythm, esp w/multiple ARs after a day at the range.

JPglee1
06-17-2006, 7:21 PM
breakup rifle into halves; remove charging handle and bolt carrier assy;
, etc.


Works like a charm. Sounds like a lot but you get into the rhythm, esp w/multiple ARs after a day at the range.


OK I can't resist...

Cleaning procedure for AK:


Spray brake cleaner into bore, snake/brush 2-3 times, spray more..shake out excess.

Wipe gas piston off w/brake cleaner on rag.

Spray brake cleaner into receiver, shake out excess.

Give shot of WD-40 to FCG.

*optional* wipe down exterior of rifle for ashthetics.


Assemble rifle and shoot...


Hehe... ;)


JP

rkt88edmo
06-17-2006, 10:48 PM
Don't you know that ARs were designed by mattel and the slinky was an unintended byproduct?

elsolo
06-18-2006, 12:55 AM
Don't like the SPROING sound?
Put a more effective muzzle brake on it, all you'll hear is BANG.

saki302
06-18-2006, 3:11 AM
In the desert, if I have let my AR go long enough to start funcitoning slow (like 1500 rounds- hee hee), I'll clean the bolt. This makes it function fine for another 500-1000 rounds, and you can clean it in 2 minutes with brass brush and CLP. When the bolt and carrier carbon-up, it will slow the functioning quite a bit. Most of the other stuff may affect accuracy somewhat, but not so much reliability.

The bolt locking lug area can be swabbed in 10 seconds with a q-tip.
The 5.56 is roughly good out to 300-400 yards easily with a 20" barrel- no fragmentation of th ebullet, but a hole bored in someone's head will still ruin their day. At that range you won't hit anything with an AK anyways.

As far as AKs go, I had a MAK90 which was terrible (sold to brother in law- he regged in 1999). Rough, and the bolt would stay back sometimes (factory gun). I also now have an AK broomstick (no PG) built with a Romy kit which works flawlessly. I guess I build better than Norinco :D Accuracy is in the 'good enough' range for 100-200 yards with the irons.

If you like the AR but don't like the gas system, try the H&K 416- it uses a short stroke piston. Any problems I've had with ARs was due to bad/out of tolerance parts though (old free hand-me-down upper with mystery parts).

-Dave

JPglee1
06-18-2006, 8:39 AM
At that range you won't hit anything with an AK anyways.




I can get to about 350yds reliably with the AK, its more of a rainbow trajectory tho.


You said you go 1500rds before the bolt gets sticky, Ive never seen an AK slow down or jam up like that from being dirty...


I guess to each his own, right? I just don't like AR15s and would rather use a stick hahaha.


JP

C9X19
06-18-2006, 9:15 AM
Don't you know that ARs were designed by mattel and the slinky was an unintended byproduct?

http://www.snopes.com/military/m16.htm ;)

Fate
06-18-2006, 11:36 AM
http://www.snopes.com/military/m16.htm ;)
Apparently you don't yet know that Snopes.com makes up over 1/2 of the stuff on there. :D

NRAhighpowershooter
06-18-2006, 3:28 PM
Mattel??
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p18b8e7eb510f64365a4584f92d0b7eb1/ee73ba3c.jpg

ivanimal
06-18-2006, 11:07 PM
I want a Spongebob Lower!:mad:

ivanimal
06-18-2006, 11:58 PM
How 'bout KFC?

http://armm.planetrainbowsix.gamespy.com/images/kfc-m16a1.jpg

Should be self lubing to the point the recoil spring is silent.


"Its finger lickin good! lowers"

Never needs grease.

fal_762x51
06-19-2006, 12:33 AM
I can't resist.

Frankly the FAL is superior to all, I know, I have a couple. Over 90 countries and many warlords agree, the FAL is one of the best battle rifles utilized in swampy, desert, or freezing butt cold weather and work like Ol Dirty. Itís about personal preference. I compared the FALs to my AR and AKs; it is better!

P.S.
JPglee1. Some people don't like European weaponry because any weapon under $500 is un-American.

saki302
06-19-2006, 5:54 AM
I guess to each his own, right? I just don't like AR15s and would rather use a stick hahaha.
JP

You need to hang around guns and shooters more. I have yet to meet a gun I didn't like, or wouldn't accept if it were free :D
Especially anything evil looking..

Years ago I didn't like ARs much either (first rifle was the ****ese MAK).. but they're so darned accurate, and mine work so well...

I have seen the Arsenal AKs at the SAR show- that's one which might well come close to AR accuracy- it was THAT well made.

-Dave

onley11
06-19-2006, 9:32 AM
I can't resist.

Frankly the FAL is superior to all, ... Some people don't like European weaponry because any weapon under $500 is un-American.

I'd love a fal for 500 bucks. Where can I get one? In California, I thought they were much more...

bwiese
06-19-2006, 11:54 AM
You said you go 1500rds before the bolt gets sticky, Ive never seen an AK slow down or jam up like that from being dirty...


That's prob because he's prob not using milspec M193 or M855 5.56 ammo, whose powder design will have reduced deposits. Or, his bolt/carrier is out of spec.

The M16 is a system - rifle, ammo, shooter. Screwing up one thing makes the other links weak too.

Don't draw conclusions based on homebuilt rifles w/nonmilspec parts and commercial/bulk ammo.

JPglee1
06-19-2006, 2:30 PM
You need to hang around guns and shooters more. I have yet to meet a gun I didn't like, or wouldn't accept if it were free :D
Especially anything evil looking..

Years ago I didn't like ARs much either (first rifle was the ****ese MAK).. but they're so darned accurate, and mine work so well...

I have seen the Arsenal AKs at the SAR show- that's one which might well come close to AR accuracy- it was THAT well made.

-Dave


My mom has a registered AR-15 (SGW/OlyArms/Colt parts) and a registered Norinco 84S AK-47. Ive ran 1000s of rounds thru both. Ive also ran 100's of rounds thru both platforms, using Full Auto. I know what I like and what I don't and an AR-15/M16 is one I don't.

I'd gladly take one for free, I'm not retarded, but I'd only keep it long enough to trade for something else hahaha.

I think the FAL is the best do-all rifle if you have to choose one, but the AK is even simpler, more reliable, and good for CQB. FAL has a bolt hold open which is a plus, but also has tons of springs and screws which is a negative...

I guess I just like things to be simple, with as few parts to lose or break.

Yah ARs can do .5 to 1MOA shooting and AKs only do 2MOA but when you're shooting at 50-150yds (or less, in real combat situations) they're both accurate enough to get the job done, especially with a tuned-up AK and some training on it.

I think a Galil in 556 would be a good replacement for the AR, but I don't like .223 either :eek: :D

Anyway, guns are cool thats all that matters, if you like AR-15s, awesome. Keep it clean, practice/train and know your weapon system inside and out. Even tho I don't like AR's I can completely field and detail strip one, clean it, and reassemble it, incase I run across one in a SHTF sitch someday.


J

onley11
06-19-2006, 6:16 PM
... if you like AR-15s, awesome. Keep it clean, practice/train and know your weapon system inside and out. Even tho I don't like AR's I can completely field and detail strip one, clean it, and reassemble it, incase I run across one in a SHTF sitch someday.

Ok, that is something I can respect. I still want a 500 dollar fal, though.

fal_762x51
06-19-2006, 8:36 PM
2 years ago the FAL was $500. $150 parts kit, $179 Imbel receiver, various U.S. parts, a $15 10 round mag, and a $.40 hex screw. Those were good times; too bad its all turning to poo.

saki302
06-22-2006, 12:41 AM
Dude.. your MOM has a registered AR-15?!?!?! Cool!! :D
My uncle gave my mother one years ago- she didn't like it so guess who got it 12 years later? :)

The ammo in question I was using which led to 1500th round jamming was good old Wolf .223. yep, it's dirty and leaves funky plastic-like deposits on the bolt carrier, but it's greak to plink with and test reliability. I only use that stuff to blast with- I haven't shot enough of the 'good' stuff to make it to 1500 rounds using only that type of ammo (good stuff is mostly used for bench shooting).

-Dave

adamsreeftank
06-22-2006, 4:41 AM
Dude.. your MOM has a registered AR-15?!?!?! Cool!! :D
My uncle gave my mother one years ago- she didn't like it so guess who got it 12 years later? :)

The ammo in question I was using which led to 1500th round jamming was good old Wolf .223. yep, it's dirty and leaves funky plastic-like deposits on the bolt carrier, but it's greak to plink with and test reliability. I only use that stuff to blast with- I haven't shot enough of the 'good' stuff to make it to 1500 rounds using only that type of ammo (good stuff is mostly used for bench shooting).

-Dave

Chances are those plastic-like deposits are also inside your chamber which can cause FTF and FTE.

JPglee1
06-22-2006, 7:51 AM
Dude.. your MOM has a registered AR-15?!?!?!

Yah, and an AK-47 (Norinco 84S) and a Poly M14, and (2) unfired registered sequential serial numbered Tec-9s new in boxes a glock 17L, Glock 19, Beretta, J frame snub, M1 Garand....

She also has a nice supply of legal hicaps.


I made sure to take care of Mom.


JP

pc_city
06-22-2006, 9:06 AM
I just shot my new OLL Stag 15 for the first time and it makes a loud springing sound during every shot. My buddy told me this is normal and he also said that there is some part to help reduce that noise. Any thoughts.

Thanks

This might do the trick.
http://www.mgimilitary.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3