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iscozky
11-02-2010, 3:50 PM
Hey guys,

This is my first post and it will be my first AR, I have a $1400 budget and I can't decide, I've been browsing here and there's a lot of info about AR and it's overwhelming, I like to make it right for my first purchase. Any help will be appreciated, thanks!

Allan

r6raff
11-02-2010, 3:52 PM
You can build a very nice BCM (Bravo Company) with a $1400 budget. They have a wide variety of systems to choose from and they are great to work with. If not, check out Daniels Defense, another great weapon systems manufacturer. Rifle gear has a very nice selection and they are a CA company so thats a bonus.

RaiderNation
11-02-2010, 4:07 PM
Get a Daniel Defense M4v3 (this is the mid length version). You can find them for about $1250 from some vendors here. Then you can use the other $150.00 on some ammo.

socal-ar15
11-02-2010, 4:23 PM
You could also custom build your own then you can custom tailor the parts on the rifle. That's what I do. So when the rifle is done it has all the parts I want and I'm not blowing all my cash at one time.:cool:

gmcal
11-02-2010, 4:24 PM
What will it be use for? What type of ammo will you shoot (cheapest 55 gr you can find or 75-77gr match ammo)? Is $1400 just for the rifle or does that include any accessories such as an optic, sling, light etc?

ETA:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063

The links posted above might help. The chart is somewhat controversial and caused many internet arguements. Read and understand what the features of the chart and decide if it applies to you, if you want a varmint gun the chart won't help much. There are also some very good ARs out there that are not listed on the chart such as JP and Larue.

voiceoftheright
11-02-2010, 4:26 PM
Get a Daniel Defense M4v3 (this is the mid length version). You can find them for about $1250 from some vendors here. Then you can use the other $150.00 on some ammo.
If you buy from somewhere within the state you won't have $150 for ammo after the taxes on a 1200+ dollar rifle. You can build your own for about 650-700 depending on your options and will have plenty of that $1400 to spend on ammo.

iscozky
11-02-2010, 4:31 PM
What will it be use for? What type of ammo will you shoot (cheapest 55 gr you can find or 75-77gr match ammo)? Is $1400 just for the rifle or does that include any accessories such as an optic, sling, light etc?

ETA:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063

Mostly for target shooting, the 1400 is for the rifle only.

voiceoftheright
11-02-2010, 4:38 PM
Mostly for target shooting, the 1400 is for the rifle only.

When you state "target shooting" there is a wide variety of ways you can go with the AR platform i.e. long range heavy barrel with powered scope, tactical carbine/midlength with a red dot etc.... You need to decide what type of AR you want to build first, then go from there. People on a forum shouldn't decide that first step for you. Look at pics or videos on youtube and see what you like. Brands should be afterthoughts.

gmcal
11-02-2010, 4:42 PM
Mostly for target shooting, the 1400 is for the rifle only.

Formal competetion or plinking? Max distance you'll shoot often? Bench, bipod, offhand? Moa or better or 2-4 moa good enough?

iscozky
11-02-2010, 4:48 PM
When you state "target shooting" there is a wide variety of ways you can go with the AR platform i.e. long range heavy barrel with powered scope, tactical carbine/midlength with a red dot etc.... You need to decide what type of AR you want to build first, then go from there. People on a forum shouldn't decide that first step for you. Look at pics or videos on youtube and see what you like. Brands should be afterthoughts.

Something like this.

iscozky
11-02-2010, 4:56 PM
or this minus the cqb look.

iscozky
11-02-2010, 4:58 PM
Formal competetion or plinking? Max distance you'll shoot often? Bench, bipod, offhand? Moa or better or 2-4 moa good enough?

For plinking, to be honest, I'm not familiar with the terms so bear with me, just to hit a man size target at 50-100 yards, I'll be happy.

Lower86
11-02-2010, 5:09 PM
check out the .223 self loading gallery, you can get a better idea of what guns guys are running and what features you like or dislike.

RawImpact
11-02-2010, 5:13 PM
For plinking, to be honest, I'm not familiar with the terms so bear with me, just to hit a man size target at 50-100 yards, I'll be happy.

Rocks?

You should be hitting quarters @ that distance with that type of budget.

gmcal
11-02-2010, 6:27 PM
The stock and grip in the pictures you posted are not standard on any rifle that I know of. Magpul UBR stock is about 220 and the Magpul MIAD grip is about 35. Short barrel rifles, SBR's, are no no's in CA.

For a good light use plinker with a rail and lo pro gas block check out the S&W M&P 15T. The upper is about $700-$750. Rail covers are extra if you want them and I'm not sure if sights are included. Stripped lower and parts kit should be around $200 maybe a little more. UBR, comes with receiver extension (how the stock attaches to lower) about $220 and MIAD grip is about $35. Should be right around $1400 after fees, rail covers, and sights if necessary. Maybe a little less if you buy used shop around for good deals. Sling, sling attachment, light, and VFG not included are extra if you want them. Get a Primary Arms red dot sight for about $100 and you're done, but the owner of PA does not recommend his products for hard use or defensive use. This is not a hard use rifle but it should do just fine for plinking and a little training if you want to do that. I'm assuming you'll be using cheap 55gr ammo from walmart, or similar, for plinking and that will be fine with this barrel. This rifle probably won't stabalize ammo longer than 69gr.

My preferance is BCM and an upper from BCM similar to this one is about 1k with bolt carrier group and charging handle.

Average Joe American
11-02-2010, 6:42 PM
Hitting a man sized target center of mass at 50 to 100 yards is childs play for almost any brand of AR. Thats really close for an AR15. You dont need top tier for it but with a budget like that you better be getting top tier.

The Marines zero their M4/M16's with iron sights at 200 yards and the Army zeros at 200 meters with irons (I believe?)

Slap on a Eotech or Aimpoint and you will be lightning fast and accurate inside of 100 yards with almost any brand AR you get.

I vote BCM (Bravo Company) personally and in the end it will boil down to personal preference for your intended use of short range plinking.

Dave A
11-02-2010, 7:16 PM
A lot of people in this forum and other that discuss the AR platform are heavily biased toward the top end AR's when many people simply don't need to spend the money to get what they want. From what you have said you intend to use it for you can get a complete platform for far less than $1,400 and have a fair amount left over for ammo.

You see a lot of posters that are into tactical courses and the ultimate in reliablity for when the SHTF scenarios. If you have no interest in tactical and realize there is not much likelyhood of having to repel fifty or a hundred bad guys anytime soon, then there are lots of less expensive options out there. Get a reputable upper with chrome lined barrel and have fun, the major choice will be to get a 16" carbine, or a 20" rifle .

Your choice of optics can really add to the price, but for plinking and casual range enjoyment, there are lots of inexpensive scopes that will do just fine for short range, ie up to 300 yard shooting.

themailman
11-02-2010, 7:25 PM
check the link in my sig

1forall
11-02-2010, 7:37 PM
With that budget you have several options, just take your time and do your homework. If I were you I wouldn't worry cause you'll build/buy another one soon after. :D

Dexster
11-02-2010, 7:42 PM
I would recommend figuring out exactly what you want using the gallery as well.

We can all give you advice all day long but that is what we would do, at the end of the day you're the one spending the money and going to have the rifle.

I personally would start with the lower that I like and build the rifle based on that, Grab a upper with whatever length you want and go crazy. It gets expensive fast! :D

captbilly
11-02-2010, 7:47 PM
The stock and grip in the pictures you posted are not standard on any rifle that I know of. Magpul UBR stock is about 220 and the Magpul MIAD grip is about 35. Short barrel rifles, SBR's, are no no's in CA.

For a good light use plinker with a rail and lo pro gas block check out the S&W M&P 15T. The upper is about $700-$750. Rail covers are extra if you want them and I'm not sure if sights are included. Stripped lower and parts kit should be around $200 maybe a little more. UBR, comes with receiver extension (how the stock attaches to lower) about $220 and MIAD grip is about $35. Should be right around $1400 after fees, rail covers, and sights if necessary. Maybe a little less if you buy used shop around for good deals. Sling, sling attachment, light, and VFG not included are extra if you want them. Get a Primary Arms red dot sight for about $100 and you're done, but the owner of PA does not recommend his products for hard use or defensive use. This is not a hard use rifle but it should do just fine for plinking and a little training if you want to do that. I'm assuming you'll be using cheap 55gr ammo from walmart, or similar, for plinking and that will be fine with this barrel. This rifle probably won't stabalize ammo longer than 69gr.

My preferance is BCM and an upper from BCM similar to this one is about 1k with bolt carrier group and charging handle.

The only thing that determines proper stability of a long (heavy) bullet is the twist rate of the barrel. You can get pretty much any type of barrel you want with a 1 in 8 or even 1 in 7 twist. Either of those twist rates will stabilize the heaviest ammo you can fit in the magazine. In fact, even a 1 in 8 rifling will stabilize 90 grain bullets, but you will have to load those in the rifle one at a time because they won't fit in the magazine

gamma105
11-02-2010, 8:19 PM
Get a Daniel Defense M4v3 (this is the mid length version). You can find them for about $1250 from some vendors here. Then you can use the other $150.00 on some ammo.
+1
IMO, for the price, it's hard to beat DD. That's what I bought, the DDM4V3, not a problem so far! If I were you, also check out the DDM4V5, it doesn't have the fixed front sight!

gmcal
11-02-2010, 8:22 PM
The only thing that determines proper stability of a long (heavy) bullet is the twist rate of the barrel. You can get pretty much any type of barrel you want with a 1 in 8 or even 1 in 7 twist. Either of those twist rates will stabilize the heaviest ammo you can fit in the magazine. In fact, even a 1 in 8 rifling will stabilize 90 grain bullets, but you will have to load those in the rifle one at a time because they won't fit in the magazine

According to specs of the rifle from s&w's website it has a 1:9 twist barrel. Not all 1:9 barrels can stabalize bullets longer than 69gr. If someone wants to use bullets larger than 69gr then a 1:9 twist is not the best choice. I agree 1:8 and 1:7 will work. Given the op's description of what he wants to use the rifle for I admit I assumed that a 1:9 would work well. If I'm wrong then I apologize.

chesterthehero
11-02-2010, 8:30 PM
with $1400 and the chance to do it all over again.. id build 2 and get a nice red dot

kahai808
11-02-2010, 8:46 PM
Get a nice cheap used one and just upgrade with parts! seen em as low as $650 and then you got over 700 you can do in upgrade.

rt7
11-02-2010, 10:13 PM
I wouldn't rely too much on that chart as the info might be outdated. I looked at an upper that had all the top tier features and it was a CMMG. Personally I like to piece them together because you can customize as you go, buying parts once, instead of replacing them. Good luck and have fun.

makaio
11-03-2010, 5:33 AM
First and foremost build your own and save $. Second purchase a stripped lower to get the ball rolling. While your at it you might as well buy 2 because you're going to want a second ar ( trust me you will). And that way you only pay the $25 DROES once. Once you have the lower you can figure out how you want your rifle configured. With $1400'to spend you could build a decent carbine and rifle length.

iscozky
11-03-2010, 8:23 AM
Thanks for all the info guys, BCM & DD are the favorites, I need a research on these two. I'm just wondering, what can you say about the sig 516 and the colt 6940?

iscozky
11-03-2010, 8:27 AM
check the link in my sig

nice thread

gmcal
11-03-2010, 2:20 PM
I'd skip the SiG. Hasn't been around long enough to know if its a good rifle. Colt makes very good products. They are who all others are measured against. Can get pricey though and DD and BCM offer comparable products and cheaper prices.

I forgot about the mailmans thread. I just built a DD upper with a 16" barrel, midlength gas system, DD 12" lite rail, lo pro gas block, A2 flashider, and DD BCG. I added a DD parts kit for a total of $758. The same upper from BCM cost me $915 minus the LPK and standard barrel instead of CHF. If they build them right this is the way to go. Thats cheaper than the S&W I found with better parts.

At rainier arms, not the cheapest but good prices and great customer service, a stripped Stag lower is 135, UBR stock 251, MIAD grip 35. Thats 421. I'm only using the UBR and MIAD because those are what were in the pictures you posted. There are cheaper alternatives. But that still comes in at 1179. You could add a Geissele SSA trigger for 175 and either Magpul MBUS or DD fixed sights and come in at about $1440 for a kick *** rifle.

iscozky
11-04-2010, 3:16 AM
I'd skip the SiG. Hasn't been around long enough to know if its a good rifle. Colt makes very good products. They are who all others are measured against. Can get pricey though and DD and BCM offer comparable products and cheaper prices.

I forgot about the mailmans thread. I just built a DD upper with a 16" barrel, midlength gas system, DD 12" lite rail, lo pro gas block, A2 flashider, and DD BCG. I added a DD parts kit for a total of $758. The same upper from BCM cost me $915 minus the LPK and standard barrel instead of CHF. If they build them right this is the way to go. Thats cheaper than the S&W I found with better parts.

At rainier arms, not the cheapest but good prices and great customer service, a stripped Stag lower is 135, UBR stock 251, MIAD grip 35. Thats 421. I'm only using the UBR and MIAD because those are what were in the pictures you posted. There are cheaper alternatives. But that still comes in at 1179. You could add a Geissele SSA trigger for 175 and either Magpul MBUS or DD fixed sights and come in at about $1440 for a kick *** rifle.

Thanks for the detailed info, I'm not familiar with the other acronyms, what is LPK and CHF? (When I see CHF it's congestive heart failure to me, I'm in the medical field.:)) I already have on hand the UBR, MIAD, GG&G BUIS, AFG and XPS. What kind of lower receiver did you use? I found these upper receivers that I like:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-LaRue-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20lt12.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/lmt%2016%20urg.htm
I just don't know how they perform.

Don29palms
11-04-2010, 8:12 AM
With a $1400 budget you can have a custom built gun. Figure out what you want and call Chris at

ADDAX TACTICAL
1431 TRUMAN STREET SUITE E
San Fernando, CA 91340
Phone: 818-361-5008

You can't go wrong with that!

Wafflestomper
11-04-2010, 9:57 AM
With $1400 you could build your own custom rifle.
Go to Brownell's (brownells.com) and just buy all the parts necessary. Building your own AR is relatively easy and the only thing you'll need to when you're done is take it somewhere where they have gages so it can be headspaced and checked for erosion and all that good stuff.

Optics will probably take you back the hardest, if you're looking into getting those. But if you're going to use iron sights/flip ups, you can honestly get away with making a custom build for under $900.00.

nrakid88
11-04-2010, 10:04 AM
If I were you, but I am not I am me, I would get the 16" BCM Stainless barrel Ion Bond upper. It will be much more accurate than the chrome lined barrels, yet (I believe) the IonBond is BCM's take on Nitro Carburizing, which means the barrel will outlast a chrome lined barrel, have better corrosion ressistance as well. All around its the way of the future, no reason to get a chrome lined barrel.

Don29palms
11-04-2010, 11:35 AM
JD Machine upper w/ charging handle $94.00 (http://www.shop.ar15hardware.com/JD-complete-M4-Upper-w-charging-handle-combo-jdupfaejch.htm)
Black Hole Weaponry 18" w/ rifle gas 1x8 twist $195.00 (http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=143)
BCM Auto BCG $139.95 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
DPMS Gas Tube $11.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=395110)
DPMS Gas Tube Roll Pin $1.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=384068)
Midwest Industries 15" SS Series Free Float Quad Rail $179.95 (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=288)
Midwest Industries Handguard Cap $12.50 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=267262)
Yankee Hill Machine Low Profile Gas Block $22.00 (http://yankeehillmachine.com/store/product540.html)
DPMS A2 Flash Suppressor $5.69 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=343064)
Yankee Hill Machine Crush Washer $1.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=399121)
TOTAL $665.06 plus whatever shipping costs will be. I think something like this would be a good quality upper.

You can get a JD Machine stripped lower and a bullet button from www.sogarmory.com for $110
RRA LPK w/ Hogue grip at www.parallaxtactical.com for $80
Then whatever buttstock you want.

gmcal
11-04-2010, 1:39 PM
Thanks for the detailed info, I'm not familiar with the other acronyms, what is LPK and CHF? (When I see CHF it's congestive heart failure to me, I'm in the medical field.:)) I already have on hand the UBR, MIAD, GG&G BUIS, AFG and XPS. What kind of lower receiver did you use? I found these upper receivers that I like:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-LaRue-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20lt12.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/lmt%2016%20urg.htm
I just don't know how they perform.

LPK=lower parts kit, it is the misc. small parts needed for your lower and contains the fire control group or FCG.

CHF=cold hammer forged and is a process for making barrels. There is no hard available but the consenus is that the barrel will last longer and be slightly more accurate. It costs more than standard barrels and BCM refers to it as BFH.

Of those 2 uppers I'd choose the BCM but that's because I prefer longer rails and mid length gas systems over carbine. Mid lenghts or middies have a softer recoil pulse and less wear on the parts translating to increased servic life and reliability. As with CHF barrels there is no hard data just a consensus. Also the LMT has a fixed front sight. You will not be able to use a flip up front sight. It's just preference but you already bought a flip sight set, correct?

I bought a complete BCM lower for no other reason than I wanted the names to match on the upper and lower. Stag and Spikes are probably the most popular stripped lowers. I'd probably choose DD just for the flared magwell.

Do you have $1400 left just for the upper, lower and lpk? If so I recommend keeping some of that in case you decide you want to upgrade the trigger.

2fast4u
11-04-2010, 2:03 PM
The the S&W have the CHF=cold hammer forged barrels? How are there barrels?

I to was looking at the S&W M&P 15T set up. It looks very nice. The things I read so far all have good things to say about the MP 15T.

iscozky
11-04-2010, 2:06 PM
JD Machine upper w/ charging handle $94.00 (http://www.shop.ar15hardware.com/JD-complete-M4-Upper-w-charging-handle-combo-jdupfaejch.htm)
Black Hole Weaponry 18" w/ rifle gas 1x8 twist $195.00 (http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=143)
BCM Auto BCG $139.95 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
DPMS Gas Tube $11.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=395110)
DPMS Gas Tube Roll Pin $1.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=384068)
Midwest Industries 15" SS Series Free Float Quad Rail $179.95 (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=288)
Midwest Industries Handguard Cap $12.50 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=267262)
Yankee Hill Machine Low Profile Gas Block $22.00 (http://yankeehillmachine.com/store/product540.html)
DPMS A2 Flash Suppressor $5.69 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=343064)
Yankee Hill Machine Crush Washer $1.99 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=399121)
TOTAL $665.06 plus whatever shipping costs will be. I think something like this would be a good quality upper.

You can get a JD Machine stripped lower and a bullet button from www.sogarmory.com for $110
RRA LPK w/ Hogue grip at www.parallaxtactical.com for $80
Then whatever buttstock you want.

Thanks for the info.

iscozky
11-04-2010, 2:21 PM
LPK=lower parts kit, it is the misc. small parts needed for your lower and contains the fire control group or FCG.

CHF=cold hammer forged and is a process for making barrels. There is no hard available but the consenus is that the barrel will last longer and be slightly more accurate. It costs more than standard barrels and BCM refers to it as BFH.

Of those 2 uppers I'd choose the BCM but that's because I prefer longer rails and mid length gas systems over carbine. Mid lenghts or middies have a softer recoil pulse and less wear on the parts translating to increased servic life and reliability. As with CHF barrels there is no hard data just a consensus. Also the LMT has a fixed front sight. You will not be able to use a flip up front sight. It's just preference but you already bought a flip sight set, correct?

I bought a complete BCM lower for no other reason than I wanted the names to match on the upper and lower. Stag and Spikes are probably the most popular stripped lowers. I'd probably choose DD just for the flared magwell.

Do you have $1400 left just for the upper, lower and lpk? If so I recommend keeping some of that in case you decide you want to upgrade the trigger.

Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

Hump0311
11-04-2010, 2:55 PM
Research before you buy. Browse through articles on here to see the different styles of AR's that people use and ask why they run their rig that way if you don't know. The next time you go down to your local Range if you see someone with an AR out that you like ask a few questions about it. I know that I love talking about my guns and asking questions about other setups that people have.

I've gotten to fire some really nice firearms just by asking the owners about the weapon not even thinking I would get lucky enough to fire them.

gmcal
11-04-2010, 2:57 PM
Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

You're welcome. Whatever you get just make sure you post pictures and a range report.

iscozky
11-26-2010, 8:51 AM
I finally got mine!
Daniel Defense M4v5, XPS2-0, Surefire M951, Magpul UBR, MIAD & GG&G BUIS. Thanks to all for the inputs you gave me!

RaiderNation
11-26-2010, 9:16 AM
I finally got mine!
Daniel Defense M4v5, XPS2-0, Surefire M951, Magpul UBR, MIAD & GG&G BUIS. Thanks to all for the inputs you gave me!

Nice riffle man, it looks sic :tt1: DD FTW

evidens83
11-26-2010, 9:46 AM
Sweet!!!