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View Full Version : Gun Room RO " You can't have loaded mags in your LOCKED pistol container"


dirtydrew
11-02-2010, 2:39 PM
So I went down to the Gun Room in Elk Grove to shoot my sig 229 for a little bit this afternoon. When asked to show my pistol to verify that it was unloaded, I opened my range bag and unlocked my pistol container. When the RO noticed that I had 2 loaded mags in the locked container, he said " You can't have loaded mags in your locked pistol container". I responded by saying that I have read the law and seen no where in the PC that prohibits you from having loaded mags in your locked container. He responded by saying "My dad who is a Sac County Sheriff says you can't do that". I said I guess the interpretation of the the law changes depending on who you talk to... RO also said ranges prefer not to have the mags in the same container, which I understand, but that's a private policy, not a law...
It might be a better idea to have the mags separated, but no where do I see that as a law. I guess a lot of LEO interpret the law differently rather that enforcing it to the letter...
Side note, I have never had any problems at the Gun Room, but I have read posts where others have.
FUD???

Barbarossa
11-02-2010, 2:40 PM
:fud:

Merc1138
11-02-2010, 2:41 PM
Sounds like typical gunshop FUD.

boxbro
11-02-2010, 2:47 PM
There is nothing illegal about carrying a gun in a locked container as long as it's not loaded.
A filled magazine does not equal a loaded gun.

dirtydrew
11-02-2010, 2:51 PM
That's what I thought! ( and confirmed after reading the CalGuns wiki)

ZombieTactics
11-02-2010, 2:51 PM
Typical FUD. I am really starting to lose my patience with this nonsense.

HowardW56
11-02-2010, 2:56 PM
See http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf

Case law that says that a loaded magazine does not equal a loaded gun.

Now if his dad is a Sac County Sheriff's deputy, he is probably old enough that when he was trained, a loaded mag was assumed to mean a loaded gun. Case law eliminated that assumption in 1996.

Matt C
11-02-2010, 2:59 PM
It's FUD, and there is case law to back it up, HOWEVER many LEOs believe this and are trained this way, so there is risk of arrest if discovered. So remember you don't need to tell the police you have firearms in a locked container, and you do not need to give permission to search.

Lone_Gunman
11-02-2010, 3:06 PM
I can't wait till I get my CCW. I'm gonna go in there with loaded mags and an unlocked case and wait for one of them to say something. :D

jb7706
11-02-2010, 3:10 PM
I can't wait till I get my CCW. I'm gonna go in there with loaded mags and an unlocked case and wait for one of them to say something. :D

Why bother? Head to Sac Valley and get treated like an adult.

ChrisTKHarris
11-02-2010, 3:23 PM
FUD. I remember them telling me that. I just decided to keep my loaded mags in my range bag when entering.

Werewolf1021
11-02-2010, 3:30 PM
FUD, but I believe it is a store policy. The guy probably wanted to sound cool (IE talking out his ***). :D

darksands
11-02-2010, 3:38 PM
Went to the OC Sheriff range in Anaheim and the RO wanted to check my pistols. He did tell me that although there is no law against it, it wasn't a great idea to have my magazines loaded in the case. Probably cause he knows that there are officers that think it is illegal.

blakdawg
11-02-2010, 3:41 PM
This behavior on the part of range/gun store employees is just part of a dominance/submission ritual, where they believe they must demonstrate their superiority (and your inferiority) so that you're clear that you're on their territory and must follow their rules, not the other way around.

So, on the one hand, it's completely idiotic - but on the other hand, it does make sense that everyone on the range should recognize the authority of the RO to maintain a safe environment.

Same thing with a lot of LEO's.

It's easier to just let them go ahead and assert their (imaginary) superiority rather than to spend half an hour arguing with an idiot about some law that they heard about from some guy who talked to some guy who talked to some guy who was a reserve officer/worked at a gun store/lived next door to an attorney/was a Navy SEAL/stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night/whatever.

Flopper
11-02-2010, 4:00 PM
I don't know what the range is like, but I have to speak up in their defense, at least on the gun shop side of the building.

I recently did a PPT there, and not only were they quick, friendly, and helpful, but the shop is good sized, well-stocked, well lit, and organized.

Sucks that you encountered FUD on the range side, but the shop side gets a big +1.

thebronze
11-02-2010, 4:10 PM
After one bad experience at that place, I'll never go back. They're ice-holes.

HkFan416
11-02-2010, 4:21 PM
That place is just bazaar. To them, everything is illegal (OLL's, some .22 rimfires, etc.)

One time a family member of mine (who is a peace officer) did the exact thing you did, and they went on to say that he was committing a felony. After my relative explained to him that the California penal code prohibits no such thing and how he enforces the law for a living, the range master replied back with "doesn't matter, still a felony."

I no longer support such a place that bathes in their own bullsh*t.

Spelunker
11-02-2010, 4:47 PM
Even the CHP says it is ok. Look down to the 4th question and it says you can travel with ammo in the case.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

or just google "CHP FAQ" and it brings it right up.

woodsman
11-02-2010, 4:50 PM
Having been there a number of times it certainly seems that they do their best to discourage repeat business.

ChrisTKHarris
11-02-2010, 4:52 PM
Yeah I bought my first gun there (HK USPc) and I way overpaid. :( Now I know better.

Bizcuits
11-02-2010, 4:55 PM
Sounds like typical gunshop FUD.


Yeap.

arfan66
11-02-2010, 4:56 PM
Why bother? Head to Sac Valley and get treated like an adult.

^^^This!^^^ I gotta be really desperate to go to The Gun Room again (i.e. Sac Valley doesn't have the powder I need in stock)!

Jeff

andrewj
11-02-2010, 5:04 PM
Went to the OC Sheriff range in Anaheim and the RO wanted to check my pistols. He did tell me that although there is no law against it, it wasn't a great idea to have my magazines loaded in the case. Probably cause he knows that there are officers that think it is illegal.

Do they still have a limit on the number of rounds allowed in a mag while on the line?

762cavalier
11-02-2010, 5:17 PM
So I went down to the Gun Room in Elk Grove.... snip.

There is where your problem is.:D

bwiese
11-02-2010, 5:32 PM
Half the function of Calguns is to refute FUD and nonsense spread by FFLs.

762cavalier
11-02-2010, 5:34 PM
Half the function of Calguns is to refute FUD and nonsense spread by FFLs.

and the other half is wild speculation on the latest event happening in TWO WEEKS.
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

ChrisTKHarris
11-02-2010, 5:37 PM
and the other half is wild speculation on the latest event happening in TWO WEEKS.
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

And to entertain the rest of us with What If, SHTF and Zombie musing.

TimRB
11-02-2010, 5:45 PM
Why is it that gun shops and cops are the two biggest sources of gun FUD? I can't figure this out.

Tim

SoCalLA
11-02-2010, 6:17 PM
I get the same story at LAX Shooting Range (Inglewood, CA) every time...FUD.

MrSigmaDOT40
11-02-2010, 7:07 PM
Typical FUD. I am really starting to lose my patience with this nonsense.


:mad: Man you said it, some of these ranges/gunshops push more FUD than the Brady Bunch.

jb7706
11-02-2010, 7:13 PM
^^^This!^^^ I gotta be really desperate to go to The Gun Room again (i.e. Sac Valley doesn't have the powder I need in stock)!

Jeff

Even then there are other places in town to get powder.

Pig Rifle
11-02-2010, 7:18 PM
Dirtydrew my dad said it's O.K., so just ignore that guy.:D

Gryff
11-02-2010, 7:18 PM
The Gun Room is staffed by morons.

Hunt
11-02-2010, 7:19 PM
The hunters safety course is FUD as well. We asked what defines a loaded gun and he called a LE friend and they said "if you can easily access the ammo the gun is considered loaded"

SJgunguy24
11-02-2010, 7:39 PM
Sounds like typical gunshop FUD.

Not all shops are FUD factories. At the shop I work at if someone has concerns with the legality of something or asks a question that I'm not really sure what the answer is, I'll look it up. Unlike so many other places if I don't know I'll tell you, and then we can both get educated.

Crust
11-02-2010, 9:49 PM
Yeah I bought my first gun there (HK USPc) and I way overpaid. :( Now I know better.

When I lived near there I checked them out and Wild bills Trading, across Grantline behind the John Derre shop. Decided on bill's, got a good deal and they are still very courteous when ever I stop by and might have a Q.

ilikeguns
11-02-2010, 10:09 PM
The spreading of this FUD is so rampant that it may as well be a law. Too many people I have talked with have multiple misconceptions about gun rights. Whoever spreads this nonsense is greatly responsible for the public fear of guns and the ownership of guns.

thatrogue
11-02-2010, 10:33 PM
F the gun room... overpriced and obviously care nothing about the law of the state they are selling and training people to operate firearms within. I understand the reasons to error on the side of caution, but this is a shop that consistently perpetrates FUD... I wonder if they still tell people in sac county there's no way to get a ccw? It just hurts the cause and we really should hold them accountable. Who wants to start "politely" calling.... can we get names?

762cavalier
11-03-2010, 10:15 AM
Who wants to start "politely" calling.... can we get names?

That assumes that anyone there will listen. Jeff, the owner, knows way more than anyone here about guns. Just ask him:rolleyes:

haveyourmile
11-03-2010, 10:32 AM
Why bother? Head to Sac Valley and get treated like an adult.

+100

thatrogue
11-03-2010, 10:38 AM
That assumes that anyone there will listen. Jeff, the owner, knows way more than anyone here about guns. Just ask him:rolleyes:

Thats what I have heard

thebronze
11-03-2010, 10:45 AM
F the gun room... overpriced and obviously care nothing about the law of the state they are selling and training people to operate firearms within. I understand the reasons to error on the side of caution, but this is a shop that consistently perpetrates FUD... I wonder if they still tell people in sac county there's no way to get a ccw? It just hurts the cause and we really should hold them accountable. Who wants to start "politely" calling.... can we get names?

This.

If you live in EG, you should be buying from Wild Bills.

ChrisTKHarris
11-03-2010, 10:49 AM
This.

If you live in EG, you should be buying from Wild Bills.

Why would anyone ever live in Elk Grove? :p

Stormfeather
11-03-2010, 2:06 PM
*sigh*

It wasnt always this way at the EG Gun Room, but seems its gone downhill from its inception at the new facility. Not defending them in any way, but alot of the FUD that develops there comes from Downtown Sacto itself.

ocspeedracer
11-03-2010, 2:12 PM
Why is it that gun shops and cops are the two biggest sources of gun FUD? I can't figure this out.

Tim

i don't know...do cops not like playing with their tools? :D

SixPointEight
11-03-2010, 2:16 PM
I don't know what the range is like, but I have to speak up in their defense, at least on the gun shop side of the building.

I recently did a PPT there, and not only were they quick, friendly, and helpful, but the shop is good sized, well-stocked, well lit, and organized.

Sucks that you encountered FUD on the range side, but the shop side gets a big +1.

I have never one gotten good service there. I was ignored for a half hour once with cash in hand. One guy was helping another customer, two others were at the register talking and laughing, heard the first guy tell me he was helping someone else, and continued to ignore me. I don't go there anymore. I'll give my money to someone who at least pretends to care.

Anti-Hero
11-03-2010, 2:19 PM
I've never had any issue at the range side, other than breaking the "1 long second between shots" rule.

Swift Justice
11-03-2010, 2:57 PM
If you think that is bad, try walking into the range with a lowly 10/22 in a Tapco T6 stock... you would think you walked in with a FA AK SBR with a 75 rd drum loaded with "cop killer bullets" or something...

Ed_in_Sac
11-03-2010, 3:19 PM
I've never had any problems shooting there, other than it being rather loud. Don't have my guns in a locked case when I sign up, never any hassle.

Agree that for transportation in a vehicle you don't need to keep the mags unloaded, just must not be in the gun (gun in locked case).

Also agree that Sac Valley is a far better and more versatile range.

Do like the Gun Rooms rule that if you don't act mature you don't shoot there...love it actually!

Anti-Hero
11-03-2010, 3:20 PM
You sure that's still the case? I know for a long time they would not allow GSG-5, but its not an issue anymore. I think they "got it" after losing so much business.

PixelBender
11-03-2010, 3:33 PM
I had the same issue (posted about it around here somewhere), at LAX range. They dont know the laws, just shrug it off. I asked them if it was a Range Policy and he said, no its Cal Law. Its not. Section G of 12031 defines what a loaded pistol is, and is not.

If i have my firearm with me, its in my trunk, which from what I understand is considered a locked container. I've locked the access points to the trunk from the cabin, thus making the trunk a locked container. The only traveling I do with my pistol, in an unlocked container, is from my trunk to the range, or to my place of residence,Which if I'm correct is legal.

I dont like dealing with some of the RO. They have a To-Cool-For-School attitude and frankly they dont need it. That kind of **** should be left to the tourists.

spetsnaz
11-03-2010, 3:45 PM
really like it at the gun room. not too bad prices are high though.

Shenaniguns
11-04-2010, 10:02 AM
I only go there when i'm really desperate to shoot :D

ChrisTKHarris
11-04-2010, 10:19 AM
I only go there when i'm really desperate to shoot :D

Agreed, it's kind of nice when there's inclement weather and/or night time.

Socom16Fan
11-04-2010, 10:21 AM
So I went down to the Gun Room in Elk Grove to shoot my sig 229 for a little bit this afternoon. When asked to show my pistol to verify that it was unloaded, I opened my range bag and unlocked my pistol container. When the RO noticed that I had 2 loaded mags in the locked container, he said " You can't have loaded mags in your locked pistol container". I responded by saying that I have read the law and seen no where in the PC that prohibits you from having loaded mags in your locked container. He responded by saying "My dad who is a Sac County Sheriff says you can't do that". I said I guess the interpretation of the the law changes depending on who you talk to... RO also said ranges prefer not to have the mags in the same container, which I understand, but that's a private policy, not a law...
It might be a better idea to have the mags separated, but no where do I see that as a law. I guess a lot of LEO interpret the law differently rather that enforcing it to the letter...
Side note, I have never had any problems at the Gun Room, but I have read posts where others have.
FUD???

Rancho Cordova RO's tell you the same thing. I politely stare back and donlt say a word on the rare occaision I have to go there...

Sac Valley is the place to go.

Res
11-04-2010, 10:44 AM
Gun Room is so bad, I have to go to Guns, Fishing, and Other Stuff to get a breath of fresh air :D

Olav
11-04-2010, 11:19 AM
I just love gun store FUD.

creekside
11-04-2010, 1:45 PM
This is one of the top three questions I am asked by armed guards.

I explain about Federal pre-emption, then tell them to carry a printout of the CHP FAQ.

TMC
11-04-2010, 2:24 PM
RO also said ranges prefer not to have the mags in the same container

They're going to be really pissed when you actually put the mag in the gun to shoot it...

Librarian
11-04-2010, 2:28 PM
This is one of the top three questions I am asked by armed guards.

I explain about Federal pre-emption, then tell them to carry a printout of the CHP FAQ.

Which question? Mags/ammo in same container? Nothing Federal about that - it just doesn't meet CA's definition of loaded (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California), and is not otherwise illegal.

samonya
11-04-2010, 4:55 PM
This.

If you live in EG, you should be buying from Wild Bills.

I agree. Will never do business with the over priced Gun Room. They charge 3 times more then the other range I go to. If I wanna pay high prices Ill make the drive to TDS, at least they have good customer service.

creekside
11-04-2010, 5:51 PM
Which question? Mags/ammo in same container? Nothing Federal about that - it just doesn't meet CA's definition of loaded (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California), and is not otherwise illegal.

This particular variety of FUD -- the misunderstanding of the meaning of "loaded" among police officers, range safety officers and rangemasters, gun store employees, firearms instructors and even some trainers and DAs -- is one that I have found to be pervasive. In some situations I believe that the FUD is deliberate.

The key concept here is 'transport' and not 'loaded.'

The Federal pre-emption is this law (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html) as quoted:

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 926A

Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

If the firearm is in a locked container, and the ammunition is in a separate locked container, a California peace officer attempting to misapply the law can go piss up a rope, because Federal law prevails.

The CHP FAQ (http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05) is even more helpful.

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.

I have been known to illustrate both as shown in the attached graphic:

Librarian
11-04-2010, 6:30 PM
This particular variety of FUD -- the misunderstanding of the meaning of "loaded" among police officers, range safety officers and rangemasters, gun store employees, firearms instructors and even some trainers and DAs -- is one that I have found to be pervasive. In some situations I believe that the FUD is deliberate.

The key concept here is 'transport' and not 'loaded.'

The Federal pre-emption is this law (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html) as quoted:

If the firearm is in a locked container, and the ammunition is in a separate locked container, a California peace officer attempting to misapply the law can go piss up a rope, because Federal law prevails.

The CHP FAQ (http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05) is even more helpful.

I have been known to illustrate both as shown in the attached graphic:

The CHP FAQ is appropriate, but did you note this part of what you quoted? TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 926A

Interstate transportation of firearms
This Federal law does not apply to in-state transportation.

And it isn't necessary - California law is entirely sufficient, as the CHP (and the Wiki article) points out.

And I agree - I think much of the LEO/gun shop error in this area is deliberate, at least to the extent of willful refusal to understand the laws.

A-Ron
11-04-2010, 7:25 PM
I get the same story at LAX Shooting Range (Inglewood, CA) every time...FUD.


Me too. They actually removed every round from (2) high cap G19 mags right there at the counter before letting me go in.

I now live about a mile from the gun room and never go in anymore. Misinformation, *****ty attitudes, and elevated prices are a bad combination.

HighValleyRanch
11-04-2010, 8:37 PM
If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

From the above CHP site, it seems that you could legally carry the firearm in a holster in an unlocked box, with a loaded mag or a loaded revolver speed loader next to it in the truck and be legal? Is there any problem if the trunk can be accessed through the rear seat by unlocking it as in some sedans?

Also, isn't the locked center console considered a locked trunk, but the glove box is not?

HighValleyRanch
11-04-2010, 9:02 PM
So, if you either have a conventionally ‘loaded’ concealed weapon, or have the concealed weapon and ammunition for it, AND the weapon is not registered to you, you may get state prison instead of county jail.

thanks for the links, and just pondered this one for a while from the calguns wiki?

So if a friend loans me a gun for the range, and I have the gun and ammo for it in my truck, since the gun is not registered to me, and it is capable of being concealed and has the ammo for it, even if the ammo is for another gun, I am in risk of arrest for the special circumstances quoted?

Since there is no "registration" per say for older grandfathered firearms before the requirement of FFL transfers, I have some firearms that have no "legal" registration per department of justice. These were purchased in CA at gun shows way back in the early days. Am I then in danger while in possession of these guns with ammo as the above special circumstances since I cannot prove that they are mine per Dept of justice?

thanks for helping clear this up.

xXBigJoeXx
11-04-2010, 9:08 PM
The CHP FAQ is appropriate, but did you note this part of what you quoted? This Federal law does not apply to in-state transportation.

And it isn't necessary - California law is entirely sufficient, as the CHP (and the Wiki article) points out.

And I agree - I think much of the LEO/gun shop error in this area is deliberate, at least to the extent of willful refusal to understand the laws.

Thanks for the documentation Librarian! I will have these on me at all times when transporting my firearms.... :D :chris:

Librarian
11-04-2010, 9:13 PM
From the above CHP site, it seems that you could legally carry the firearm in a holster in an unlocked box, with a loaded mag or a loaded revolver speed loader next to it in the truck and be legal?

Is there any problem if the trunk can be accessed through the rear seat by unlocking it as in some sedans?

Also, isn't the locked center console considered a locked trunk, but the glove box is not?

UNLOCKED does not meet the requirements of PC 12026.1 / 12026.2. If it's concealed, has to be in a LOCKED completely enclosing case. If you meant "trunk" rather than "truck", then the trunk indeed counts as the locked container.

The trunk access question is not yet answered. I doubt it is a problem, but I have no case law to support that.

The center console MAY, likely will, be considered 'the utility compartment' and therefore is forbidden just as the glove box is.
thanks for the links, and just pondered this one for a while from the calguns wiki?

So if a friend loans me a gun for the range, and I have the gun and ammo for it in my truck, since the gun is not registered to me, and it is capable of being concealed and has the ammo for it, even if the ammo is for another gun, I am in risk of arrest for the special circumstances quoted?
Only if you are carrying concealed without CCW AND you are not carrying in a locked case.

Since there is no "registration" per say for older grandfathered firearms before the requirement of FFL transfers, I have some firearms that have no "legal" registration per department of justice. These were purchased in CA at gun shows way back in the early days. Am I then in danger while in possession of these guns with ammo as the above special circumstances since I cannot prove that they are mine per Dept of justice?
Lots of guns not known to DOJ - millions, probably. By itself, that should not draw any interest (why would anyone run the gun through the database without some suspicion of a crime? I know, I know...) If it does bring an arrest, competent representation should get you released quickly.

HighValleyRanch
11-04-2010, 9:35 PM
Thanks for the quick followup, Librarian, and yes, I did mean trunk, not truck!LOL

cmichini
11-05-2010, 7:33 AM
If you heard it from a gun store, or shooting range employee the immediate assumption should be that it's FUD. Kind of like the 'Seinfeld' episode where George decided to do the opposite, and it all worked out great for him.

So, here's my cheat sheet for talking to gun store folks:
If they say it's illegal, it's legal.
If they say it's legal, it's not.

Your mileage may vary.

harbinger007
11-05-2010, 9:04 AM
I posted a somewhat similar experience a week ago when I tried to educate them. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=357489 Wish I had taken a copy of the CHP information. If I go back, I'll have it in hand.

I probably wouldn't go there again if Sac Valley was closer to me (Gun Room = 40 minutes, Sac Valley = 60 minutes). I live on my own farm and mostly shoot right here! No hassles for open carry or any of that. :D

creekside
11-05-2010, 1:12 PM
The CHP FAQ is appropriate, but did you note this part of what you quoted? This Federal law does not apply to in-state transportation.

I'm not an attorney, but the preamble or header is not part of the law. I believe that this Federal law does apply to in-state transportation.

My understanding of how Federal preemption works in this case is that any state law cannot more heavily burden otherwise lawful transportation (between places permitted by state law) than the Federal example given.

However, I would be very interested in a firearm attorney's interpretation, as apparently the state of New York has been pushing this very hard, arresting any travelers found with firearms irregardless of the statute. The one legal cite I found in a hasty search was that a Federal court rejected a civil rights claim against New York from a traveler arrested despite the statute.

And it isn't necessary - California law is entirely sufficient, as the CHP (and the Wiki article) points out.

I've noticed that many cops tend to have their eyes glaze over if you try to discuss California law with them. Worse, sometimes they seize on the "loaded" definition used with respect only to the state capitol buildings and ignore any information to the contrary.

An easy to read Federal law tends to encourage them to sit up and take greater notice.

And I agree - I think much of the LEO/gun shop error in this area is deliberate, at least to the extent of willful refusal to understand the laws.

This is one reason to over-do it and be more compliant than the edge of the law requires. I vote with my feet with respect to vendors, but I don't have that option at the side of the road.

Librarian
11-05-2010, 4:54 PM
If there is no interstate component, there is no Federal issue (except, apparently, where Congress has tortured the Commerce Clause into some kind of submission); transportation entirely within one state - in our case, California - is subject ONLY to CA law.

Now, the recommendation in 18 USC 926A is certainly sound advice, and the title is not a 'preamble'.

But CA law regarding loaded magazines really is a 'loaded' issue.

Follow:

(In all cases, for a not-prohibited person, not going into a prohibited area ...)

It is not illegal to possess or transport ammunition; there is simply nothing at all in PC about it.

Similarly, it is not illegal to possess or transport magazines - again, nothing at all in PC about it.

It is not illegal to possess or transport a handgun, presuming one has CCW or one uses a locked case and follows the requirements of PC 12026.1 or 12026.2.

But the complaint is against magazines containing unexpended rounds.

What is the nexus between magazines containing unexpended rounds and transportation?

California's concept of "loaded". PC 12031, the 'loaded in public' statute is the only possible issue.

There is nothing in California PC stating that ammunition cannot be transported in magazines, nothing that says the ammunition cannot be in the same locked container with the firearm.

People v. Clark of 1996 settled what 'loaded' means in most cases.

Carrying/transporting a magazine with unexpended rounds does not meet the definition of 'loaded' in Clark - that behavior is not illegal.

Federal law is not an issue, and not a help in this - properly trained LEOS or LEOS who actually will do their jobs and remember their training, and then share that training with gun stores, is what applies here.

Please read the Wiki articles on Transportation and Loaded - those are the product of months of vetting here. They're right, and they're sufficient.

Mike's Custom
11-05-2010, 5:16 PM
First, to all you FUD answerers, it me be FUD now but it was NOT ALWAYS that way. When the law first passed it was allowed to have loaded mags or even the firearm loaded when in the locked container. Then came a trime when having any ammo in the locked container with the firearm made the firearm "loaded". This was challenged and what we have now is correct. This is how times change. Remember that until '04 we could not have OLLs either.

odysseus
11-05-2010, 5:22 PM
Something that should be so easy to understand is made so complex and spread to misinformation. I hear it all the time, and yes there are those in LE that have been told any ammunition in the locked container with the unloaded firearm counts as "loaded". Just how again is that firearm "loaded"?

Even the CHP says it is ok. Look down to the 4th question and it says you can travel with ammo in the case.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

Perhaps the OP should fax that over with the http link to them, so he can advise his Dad too.

Ed_in_Sac
11-06-2010, 7:46 AM
...If the firearm is in a locked container, and the ammunition is in a separate locked container, a California peace officer attempting to misapply the law can go piss up a rope, because Federal law prevails....

Where do you read that the ammo must be in a separate locked container?

PixelBender
11-21-2010, 2:41 PM
So just an update. Not to resurrect a dead thread.

I've been going there a lot lately. Its the closest place and I know whos who and what to expect.

Today, I over heard, yet again, another conversation regarding loaded magazines.

'Maam, next time DO NOT TRAVEL WITH LOADED MAGAZINES"

I almost said something, but if the firearm owner doesn't know the law, thats their problem. I'm considering making a pamphlet, or business card with the penal codes and definitions on them incase they continue to do such a thing.

When I was told the same thing, i replied with "I believe you are wrong, but I;m not going to argue with you, if it is a range policy than I will comply"

I keep my firearm in my trunk, so I dont need a look on the bag, but since putting a joke of a lock on my pistol bag (Little $2 master lock) and attaching the key to the bag handle using some 550 (because the only reason theres a lock on the bag in the first place is so there is one less question to ask/answer) because I doont see a law about where you can store your key. ;)

Does any one have any recommendations as to what should be on these business cards?
(8+ years graphic design) Its about time I made some of these. Might even be worth it to help educate the RO's.

*Side Note* Recently purchased some Federal Hydra Shock and got thumb printed. Purchased some other ammo the other day (Non JHP) and didnt get thumb printed. Apparently they save prints for Hollow points and other "spooky" (I guess) ammo.

I woudl really love to see this place lighten up a bit and hop in for the big win. They are the only place for me to shoot this side of town and would love a great place (only place) to shoot locally.

Take care

dantodd
11-21-2010, 2:45 PM
If you don't have a lock in the bag how do you transport it from your trunk into the range?

Shenaniguns
11-21-2010, 2:46 PM
Where do you read that the ammo must be in a separate locked container?


I was scolded for this yesterday at TGR, I told them I can get the printout according to the CHP and he then said it was range policy :rolleyes:

PixelBender
11-21-2010, 2:56 PM
If you don't have a lock in the bag how do you transport it from your trunk into the range?

I use the lock when transporting from trunk to range.
The only time it wasn't locked in transport was when I was going from the garage to my home. Going to the range with the lock on the bag has stopped them from checking my firearm. I also think going frequently has made things easier. I just hand them my ID, and range card, tell 'em I need a lane, and I scoot around all the n00bs.

Been having a problem with the air conditioning lately. The left side lanes 3-10 I believe have an AC vent at the 12 and 20 ft lines ( I think). My targets are getting blown around (floating) by the AC vent.

bwiese
11-21-2010, 3:25 PM
Remember that until '04 we could not have OLLs either.

Actually we coulda had OLLs by July of 2001 and we were too stupid to not wake up and smell the coffee til 2005.

Liberty1
11-21-2010, 5:19 PM
FUD???

Direct the RO to look at the CHP FAQ - http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html

...Ammunition may be kept in the same container..., but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well...

Anti-Hero
11-22-2010, 8:55 AM
I carry loaded mags in my range bag 99% of the time, and have never once been hassled at the Gun Room. I guess I've just been lucky.

Shenaniguns
11-22-2010, 8:58 AM
I carry loaded mags in my range bag 99% of the time, and have never once been hassled at the Gun Room. I guess I've just been lucky.



Saturday was the first time they ever said anything to me ever.

darksands
11-22-2010, 9:11 AM
Do they still have a limit on the number of rounds allowed in a mag while on the line?

Yes, 5 rounds at a time.

Shenaniguns
11-22-2010, 9:13 AM
Yes, 5 rounds at a time.


When did that start?

darksands
11-22-2010, 9:19 AM
When did that start?

Orange County Sherrif's range in Aneheim has always had that rule for civilians as long as I have been there. LEO can have a full magazine.

The range is inexpensive and they provide free targets. Not crowded and usually free of undesireables.

CSDGuy
11-22-2010, 9:21 AM
Yes, 5 rounds at a time.

When did that start?
And how are they going to enforce it when they don't have an RO inside, on the line itself?

Helpful_Cub
11-22-2010, 9:21 AM
Actually I did training at FTATV and they said the same thing. I even got into an agruement with one of the trainers over it because you would not be able to legally do Open Carry if you can't have ammo in magazine that's not in the gun. So this kind of bad knowledge is even being taught as law. :(

CSDGuy
11-22-2010, 9:22 AM
Orange County Sherrif's range in Aneheim has always had that rule for civilians as long as I have been there. LEO can have a full magazine.

The range is inexpensive and they provide free targets. Not crowded and usually free of undesireables.
This isn't the OCSD's range that we're talking about. It's The Gun Room in Elk Grove.

darksands
11-22-2010, 9:29 AM
This isn't the OCSD's range that we're talking about. It's The Gun Room in Elk Grove.

Yes, the discussion did get a bit off topic there.

Swift Justice
11-22-2010, 10:49 AM
I've never been hassled about loaded mags at TGR, but I keep my loaded mags, ammo, glasses, ear muffs, etc. in a separate bag from the pistols when I go.

Also, was not aware of the only 5 rounds in a mag rule. Never heard it from any of the RO's before and don't recall reading it on the sign in sheet. Went there last week and loaded my pre-ban G17 mags to capacity and happily shot until I was out of ammo...observing the "slow fire" rule of course :62:.

I think a lot of the attitude you get depends on when you go and how you act. I go on my furlough days in the morning, there are few people around and if you look like you are responsible then they tend to not bother you. If you go when its busy (try getting a lane the day after thanksgiving or Christmas) or if you go in looking gangsta or with an attitude they tend to scrutinze you more.

Shenaniguns
11-22-2010, 11:25 AM
It also depends on who's at the counter, one guy 'warned' me while the other did not care. I was only transporting my guns for sale which was on top with no ammo near it while the other was under a thick foam pad that he chose to lift up without asking that had my holstered M&P unloaded/unchambered slide locked back next to two full mags and some loose Ranger-T.