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r6raff
11-02-2010, 2:08 PM
I have done a bit of searching but I still a couple questions. I have seen people shooting steel targets at distances as close as 25yards with 223/556 semi auto rifles. Ammo appeared to be m193 fmj. Is this craziness?

I just picked up a couple 8x8 1/2" AR500 steel plates that i want to use for target shooting, however I typically shoot on the move at distances between 100-15yards. I would prefer to stay on my primary (ar15 shooting xm193) until about 30yards or so then transition to my secondary (9mm 115g fmj) Would this be an unsafe scenario? i will be suspending my plates with chain, allowing the steel to have play when struck.

Any suggestions would be nice, as well as any reality checks. I was also thinking of setting up multiple targets and switching to cardboard/paper targets at the closer distances for safety, however, I would love some calgun input. Thanks guys!

Captain Crunch
11-02-2010, 2:13 PM
shoot m855 greenies , they will go through Ar500 . Someone on here did a comparison of the xm193 vs m855 against steel plates

jak77
11-02-2010, 2:29 PM
I don't think the op wants holes in his plates. I'm gonna assume he wants to use them as long as possible. For your question op, I'm not sure so Ill let someone more knowledgeable answer this question.

Divernhunter
11-02-2010, 2:44 PM
If it is really AR500 plate a 223 will not go thru if the plate can move. I have some 1.5" AR500 and the surface does not even get hardly scratched with 223/308/30-06 green or any other in 223 and ball in the .308 cal. Heck my 50bmg with AP rounds does not penatrate it. But when it is propped up on the bank it will move it a couple of feet.

Nathan Krynn
11-02-2010, 2:45 PM
I was at a competition last weekend with my wife and father. It was all carbines, 90% Ar-15's.

There was a stage with AR500 plates 35 yards away. My father and I each got hit twice standing in line for that stage and my wife was sitting 30 feet from us reloading at the bench and tonight I have to pick shrapnel out of her leg (starting to get infected and she didnt let me know there was still a piece in there). The venders booth area about 50 yards away got hit a few times.

Plain and simple it is not safe to hit steel at close range with a rifle round.

Divernhunter
11-02-2010, 2:46 PM
If it is really AR500 plate a 223 will not go thru if the plate can move. I have some 1.5" AR500 and the surface does not even get hardly scratched with 223/308/30-06 green or any other in 223 and ball in the .308 cal. Heck my 50bmg with AP rounds does not penatrate it. But when it is propped up on the bank it will move it a couple of feet.

"I" would not shoot at less than 100-200 yards. It only take one coming back at you to kill you.

r6raff
11-02-2010, 2:49 PM
Yes, I would like these plates to last. Maybe at te end of their life I will try and drill holes with some green tip, however I have seen some video where 855 was unable to fully penetrate ar500 3/8" thick plates at 100yards. Did make one hell of a dent though and the m193 didn't even scratch it.

I was also thinking of using bthp ammo for this, in theory it should fragment better and thusly, create a safer shooting scenario... In Theory... I just want to maintain a safe shooting environment for myself and others in the area, while maximizing my shooting experience.

I look forward to more insight from the awesome guys here on calguns

Dexster
11-02-2010, 2:51 PM
I agree about the close range shooting steel, I've had 2 close calls with others doing it. I wouldn't risk it anything closer than 100 yrds and even at that distance I would be in the prone.

A lot of the risk can be negated by putting angle on the plate but the risk vs reward isn't really there in my opinion.

r6raff
11-02-2010, 2:57 PM
Thank you Nathan and Diver, exactly what I was looking for, some first hand experience, not just scuttlebutt that I hear from everyone else. Glad to hear you, your father and your wife are ok. Question though, what was the mounting fashion they used? Fixed, poppers or suspended? I ask, because that seems like a lot of shrapnel flying around and an all around unsafe environment. We are recreational shooters, I don't want crap flying back at me.

Nathan Krynn
11-03-2010, 6:48 AM
Basically they were on poles about 5' up angled. It wasn't whole rounds coming back it was shrapnel.

Kind of hard to see but this is the only video of this stage I could find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94i_k6e6eBw&p=8AE553047D5E87FF&playnext=1&index=3

Nathan Krynn
11-03-2010, 7:01 AM
This one you can see where the bench is that my wife and I took some in the leg while reloading. You see it on the left you you can get an idea from this and the last video how far it was, I think it was father then 35 yards. The line where my father and I were hit was where the camera was on the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idlp2jQyu04&p=8AE553047D5E87FF&index=7&feature=BF

The venders booth was across the range and they got all sorts of shrapnel.

THT
11-03-2010, 7:09 AM
Yes, I would like these plates to last. Maybe at te end of their life I will try and drill holes with some green tip, however I have seen some video where 855 was unable to fully penetrate ar500 3/8" thick plates at 100yards. Did make one hell of a dent though and the m193 didn't even scratch it.

I was also thinking of using bthp ammo for this, in theory it should fragment better and thusly, create a safer shooting scenario... In Theory... I just want to maintain a safe shooting environment for myself and others in the area, while maximizing my shooting experience.

I look forward to more insight from the awesome guys here on calguns

I've done some testing of my own with mild steel as well as AR500 plates. At 50 yards M193 will punch a hole in 3/8" thick mild steel; M855 will not. This stands to reason as M193 has better penetration ability under 300 yards relative to M855. At 100 yards, neither will crater 3/8" thick AR500 that was waterjet cut. If your steel was cut with a plasma cutter, the temper near the edges will be ruined and the plate not as durable. If the plate can move, a 3/8" thick AR500 plate can take a hit from .50BMG however the plate will deform. With a 155gr AMAX moving at 3000fps, the steel doesn't crater or otherwise deform either.

r6raff
11-03-2010, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the imagery Nathan. you said the plates were fixed and angled up? That seems to go against everything I have heard. What I have read was that you either want the surface completely perpendicular to the shooter to make sure you get complete fragmentation, or have the plate slightly angled downward to direct ricochets towards the ground. If they were angled up, then I can see why you all were peppered so much as the frags were being lobbed at you guys.

Either way, im thinking of just keeping my steel engagements to a minimum of 75yards and use cardboard for the closer distances. i think out of curiosity, I will build a barrackade out of 1" ply wood with a shoot window and see at what range I get predictible fragmentation ricochet. My nature is one of curiosity, so the only logical thing to do is test this myself ;) Behind a nice wall and in full gear, plus an extra pair of underwear :cool:

I remember reading something about that THT, that was an interesting find. I need to find that test/study and read through it again, the ballistics patterns of different projectiles are fascinating to me, especially when they zig when you think they will zag...

THT
11-03-2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks for the imagery Nathan. you said the plates were fixed and angled up? That seems to go against everything I have heard. What I have read was that you either want the surface completely perpendicular to the shooter to make sure you get complete fragmentation, or have the plate slightly angled downward to direct ricochets towards the ground. If they were angled up, then I can see why you all were peppered so much as the frags were being lobbed at you guys.

Either way, im thinking of just keeping my steel engagements to a minimum of 75yards and use cardboard for the closer distances. i think out of curiosity, I will build a barrackade out of 1" ply wood with a shoot window and see at what range I get predictible fragmentation ricochet. My nature is one of curiosity, so the only logical thing to do is test this myself ;) Behind a nice wall and in full gear, plus an extra pair of underwear :cool:

I remember reading something about that THT, that was an interesting find. I need to find that test/study and read through it again, the ballistics patterns of different projectiles are fascinating to me, especially when they zig when you think they will zag...

Ballistic testing is barrels of fun. I did some buckshot patterning with nearly 10 loads and a couple 12ga shotguns and while my shoulder looked like hamburger the next day, I had a blast.

Kerplow
11-03-2010, 11:07 AM
Anyone know what the steel gong at the 100 yd range at angeles is made of? That thing gets drilled all day, every day and I imagine it wouldn't be there if people were getting hit by shrapnel. I know it is suspended by chain, not sure of the angle.

I was shooting one of the round plates at 200 a couple weeks ago and getting miffed when I kept missing. I took a closer look and realized there was a gaping hole in it!

Nathan Krynn
11-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Normally it is AR500 and at my range at 100yards we never had any problem. It is when they did this shoot and they were close in and I don't think angled correctly that we had a problem. I have heard you can get as close as 15 yards but I just don't think it is safe as my experience has shown. I do think these were not mounted correctly for this type of shooting.

r6raff
11-03-2010, 1:08 PM
Thanks again Nathan, you have had some "good" experiences and I appreciate you sharing them with me. I think I will go the safe route, but i will do some testing, mainly to satisfy that curious demon inside me that always wants to know why:43:

wildcard
11-03-2010, 1:15 PM
Make sure your steel is angled downward and always shoot it from a side angle.
Also make sure that spectators are behind the line of fire rather than the ricochet.

Handguns i'd get up and personal.. rifles are a 75 yd deal. No steel bullets.