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View Full Version : Yet another reminder: KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU VISIT!


J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:04 AM
As I was looking over the criminal arraignment calendar for yesterday afternoon, the first case on the list caught my eye:

2 Counts of Possession of a deadly weapon under 12020(a)(1)
2 Counts of carrying a loaded weapon 12031 (IIRC)
1 Count of carrying a concealed weapon (can't remember the exact penal code section right now)

This got my blood boiling because of the lack of any charges about being a convicted felon, brandishing, assault, etc..he was only charged with having the firearms. So I looked at the complaint. The two counts of possession of a deadly weapon were for a "rifle", and a "handgun". They also added the enhancement for the pistol not being registered to him which made the case a felony.

Turns out he's from AZ, was visiting and got pulled over at a DUI checkpoint with a loaded pistol on the floorboard and a loaded rifle in the trunk. Now the poor guy is facing charges in a state where he doesn't even live, that could affect his right to ever possess a firearm again. All because he chose to be ignorant of the law where he was visiting. Everything he did would have been perfectly legal in Tucson where he's from. There is something seriously wrong with this.

So this warning goes out to everyone...KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU VISIT!

Cali-Shooter
11-02-2010, 9:09 AM
Only in CA. That's the sad truth about this disgrace of a US state.

Glock22Fan
11-02-2010, 9:10 AM
Yes, a friend of mine drove from Utah right down to San Diego with a loaded revolver sitting near his feet. I spotted it when he called in to see me on his way home. He was astounded that this could be illegal anywhere in the United States.

Luckily he didn't get caught.

CalBear
11-02-2010, 9:29 AM
Yes, a friend of mine drove from Utah right down to San Diego with a loaded revolver sitting near his feet. I spotted it when he called in to see me on his way home. He was astounded that this could be illegal anywhere in the United States.

Luckily he didn't get caught.
So if he were caught. Would he get a felony enhancement because the gun wasn't in the CA DOJ registry? And would this felony then take away his gun rights in Utah?

The whole concept of having such radically restrictive gun laws in some states makes no sense. Obviously it's a big mistake in any situation to assume the law in another state is the same as yours, but I can totally see how one would assume the RKBA protects such actions. Then again, anyone who assumes this probably hasn't had enough encounters with the nanny state of CA.

Sajedene
11-02-2010, 9:33 AM
Ouch. That sucks. And yes, it is never safe to assume - especially when one comes to this state.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:33 AM
The whole concept of having such radically restrictive gun laws in some states makes no sense.

Tell me about it. I live in AZ and work in CA. I can almost feel the iron curtain come down around me every morning when I cross the border. It's one of the most stupid things I know of.

NiteQwill
11-02-2010, 9:33 AM
I don't get how they can ding him for no registration. :confused: He's not even a resident of this state or a state that REQUIRES registration. No where does CA state law require visitors to register their guns.

Seems like that portion can easily be thrown out in court. All the other stuff, well, sucks to be him.

Gray Peterson
11-02-2010, 9:33 AM
JD, Forward this information to CGF with names in specific. PM hoffmang specifically please. Thanks.

-Gray

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:37 AM
Will do...if I can find the info. The guy retained one of the local hacks and I talked to him. He said he already worked something out with the DA for deferred prosecution. Not sure exactly what that means in this case...

dantodd
11-02-2010, 9:38 AM
It occurs to me that the enhancement for unregistered handguns is an equal protections issue as ANY non-resident will automatically get the enhancement for even the most technical of violations.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:45 AM
Yeah well, they do that kind of stuff all the time in Imperial county...as an example they give tickets for tinted windows to cars with AZ plates. Tinted front windows are legal in AZ. I've even seen one for no front license plate on cars with AZ plates. AZ doesn't even issue front plates to cars registered there. Some of the LE in CA is so damn conceited and haughty it makes me sick sometimes. Although the Bailiff in the courtroom (Imperial county sheriff deputy and former lieutenant) said he would have just told the guy to unload his weapons and lock up the pistol...

fiddletown
11-02-2010, 9:45 AM
Only in CA. ...No, not only in California. The guy would have been in trouble in New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and, I believe, Massachusetts -- just to name four States off the top of my head.

There are also some States in which it would be illegal to have a loaded handgun in the car without a CCW recognized in that State. For example, open carry is legal in Washington State, but if the gun is loaded in the car, it's considered "concealed"; and you'll need a permit recognized in WA.

There are also, I believe, some States in which a loaded rifle in the trunk would be a problem.

Yes, there's a hodgepodge of laws from State to State. That's one of the prices we pay for a federal system in which States have some autonomy.

Gray Peterson
11-02-2010, 9:46 AM
Will do...if I can find the info. The guy retained one of the local hacks and I talked to him. He said he already worked something out with the DA for deferred prosecution. Not sure exactly what that means in this case...


@%#$%^#$%@#$%@^@$^ :mad: Has he actually signed anything yet? Because there's some serious problems with the current statutes as it stands. Deferred prosecution=conviction for most purposes.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:47 AM
There are also some States in which it would be illegal to have a loaded handgun in the car without a CCW recognized in that State. For example, open carry is legal in Washington State, but if the gun is loaded in the car, it's considered "concealed"; and you'll need a permit recognized in WA.



Alabama has this exact same law as well

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:49 AM
I don't think he signed anything. Yesterday they just did the arrignment and set out a pretrial until like January. Maybe I'll talk to the defense attorney some more, I haven't spoken with the defendant, and he signed a 977 waiver yesterday since he lives in Tucson and doesn't want to keep driving out here...so I don't think I'll get a chance to talk to him. I also have to be careful about getting involved since I'm a court employee I could potentially get in trouble...

I know it gets me all tied in knots too.

Gray Peterson
11-02-2010, 9:51 AM
I don't think he signed anything. Yesterday they just did the arrignment and set out a pretrial until like January. Maybe I'll talk to the defense attorney some more, I haven't spoken with the defendant, and he signed a 977 waiver yesterday since he lives in Tucson and doesn't want to keep driving out here...so I don't think I'll get a chance to talk to him. I also have to be careful about getting involved since I'm a court employee I could potentially get in trouble...

Hand him a piece of paper with a phone number on it:

(800) 556-2109

nicki
11-02-2010, 9:54 AM
We have serious cases that will change the landscape, unless this guy cut a deal where he keeps his rights, stall.

There are definite issues regarding not only equal protection, but right to travel in addition to 2nd amendment issues.

Nicki

Maestro Pistolero
11-02-2010, 9:55 AM
GO GET 'EM GRAY!

thrillhouse700
11-02-2010, 9:56 AM
Would be nice if the whole nation gets one set of gun laws on a federal level. All this crap is, is revenue generator. Greed and power **** the little guy. I hope this ends well for the AZ man.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 9:58 AM
I think I'm gonna contact his attorney about it today.

glockman19
11-02-2010, 10:12 AM
CA is notorious for piling on charges that can revoke your 2A rights.

Wherryj
11-02-2010, 10:20 AM
As I was looking over the criminal arraignment calendar for yesterday afternoon, the first case on the list caught my eye:

2 Counts of Possession of a deadly weapon under 12020(a)(1)
2 Counts of carrying a loaded weapon 12031 (IIRC)
1 Count of carrying a concealed weapon (can't remember the exact penal code section right now)

This got my blood boiling because of the lack of any charges about being a convicted felon, brandishing, assault, etc..he was only charged with having the firearms. So I looked at the complaint. The two counts of possession of a deadly weapon were for a "rifle", and a "handgun". They also added the enhancement for the pistol not being registered to him which made the case a felony.

Turns out he's from AZ, was visiting and got pulled over at a DUI checkpoint with a loaded pistol on the floorboard and a loaded rifle in the trunk. Now the poor guy is facing charges in a state where he doesn't even live, that could affect his right to ever possess a firearm again. All because he chose to be ignorant of the law where he was visiting. Everything he did would have been perfectly legal in Tucson where he's from. There is something seriously wrong with this.

So this warning goes out to everyone...KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU VISIT!

You might want to add that he was caught at what amounts to a very questionable violation of his 4th amendment rights.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Are-Sobriety-Checkpoints-Legal?&id=177292

This guy is having a very bad, very un-Constitutional day.

Gray Peterson
11-02-2010, 10:23 AM
I think I'm gonna contact his attorney about it today.

Not you think, you will. I'm not kidding here. Make sure he calls the Helpline.

-Gray

CharlieK
11-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Only in CA. That's the sad truth about this disgrace of a US state.

Yep

fiddletown
11-02-2010, 10:29 AM
Would be nice if the whole nation gets one set of gun laws on a federal level. ...That is an entirely different question.

There are a lot of reasons why we might want to be leery of even further expansion of federal power. But that's another issue for another discussion.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 10:31 AM
You might want to add that he was caught at what amounts to a very questionable violation of his 4th amendment rights.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Are-Sobriety-Checkpoints-Legal?&id=177292

This guy is having a very bad, very un-Constitutional day.

Well here's the thing. He wasn't actually popped at the checkpoint. He was passed through the checkpoint because he wasn't DUI, then he was pulled over a short distance after. His attorney was talking about a bad stop, lack of PC and all that. I don't know if they saw the pistol at the checkpoint, but I kind of doubt it. It's all really shady...

Ron-Solo
11-02-2010, 10:35 AM
A simple loaded weapon will not get you a 12020 PC charge. There is more to this than simple possession of loaded weapons. Think about it for a second.

The enhancement for not being registered should be easy to get dismissed during pre-trial procedings, but the other stuff may be a bit tougher.

Personally, I think the regulation of firearms should be stripped away from the states and there should be one set of laws for the entire US. My rights as a citizen should not change because I cross from one state to another.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 10:44 AM
A simple loaded weapon will not get you a 12020 PC charge. There is more to this than simple possession of loaded weapons. Think about it for a second.


This is what I thought at first too. When I saw the 12020(a)(1) charges I thought it was some kind of zip gun or something he rigged. But the complaint said "rifle" and "handgun". Nothing special about them. I think this is a case of the DA throwing s***t at the wall to see what sticks...

Ron-Solo
11-02-2010, 10:54 AM
This is what I thought at first too. When I saw the 12020(a)(1) charges I thought it was some kind of zip gun or something he rigged. But the complaint said "rifle" and "handgun". Nothing special about them. I think this is a case of the DA throwing s***t at the wall to see what sticks...

The complaint is a general summary, but this doesn't make sense. It doesn't say assault weapon so it probably isn't a threaded barrel issue on a handgun. In 32 years of LE, I've never seen a standard handgun fall under 12020(a)(1) PC and a rifle would have to fall under the "short barrel' definition.

It would be interesting to see the descriptions of the guns on the police report to see what it says.

Something's missing, but I can't figure out what. :confused:

jdberger
11-02-2010, 10:55 AM
JD - PM sent.

glockman19
11-02-2010, 10:59 AM
A simple loaded weapon will not get you a 12020 PC charge. There is more to this than simple possession of loaded weapons. Think about it for a second.

The enhancement for not being registered should be easy to get dismissed during pre-trial procedings, but the other stuff may be a bit tougher.

Personally, I think the regulation of firearms should be stripped away from the states and there should be one set of laws for the entire US. My rights as a citizen should not change because I cross from one state to another.

Happy to see we agree on thsi issue.

bwiese
11-02-2010, 11:03 AM
A simple loaded weapon will not get you a 12020 PC charge. There is more to this than simple possession of loaded weapons. Think about it for a second.

Maybe, maybe not.

Charging gun crimes is a pig's breakfast of random crap. Wholly outside of OLL vs. AW stuff, we've heard of charges for legal Mossy 500 cruisers as SBRs, people charged for simple possession of hicap mags, seizures for unregistered gun status (on long guns!), etc. Oftentimes charges seem to be just placeholders "we gotta put something there, this looks close".

E Pluribus Unum
11-02-2010, 11:03 AM
2 Counts of Possession of a deadly weapon under 12020(a)(1)
2 Counts of carrying a loaded weapon 12031 (IIRC)
1 Count of carrying a concealed weapon (can't remember the exact penal code section right now)


PC12025



It is said they even enforced it; they wanted something for the stats...

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 11:08 AM
The complaint is a general summary, but this doesn't make sense. It doesn't say assault weapon so it probably isn't a threaded barrel issue on a handgun. In 32 years of LE, I've never seen a standard handgun fall under 12020(a)(1) PC and a rifle would have to fall under the "short barrel' definition.

It would be interesting to see the descriptions of the guns on the police report to see what it says.

Something's missing, but I can't figure out what. :confused:

This is what I've been thinking the whole time. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the police report...

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 11:10 AM
Well, after all this it looks like the case may get dismissed. Can't say how I know...anyway I'll keep you guys posted on what happens

wellerjohn
11-02-2010, 11:11 AM
As I was looking over the criminal arraignment calendar for yesterday afternoon, the first case on the list caught my eye:

2 Counts of Possession of a deadly weapon under 12020(a)(1)
2 Counts of carrying a loaded weapon 12031 (IIRC)
1 Count of carrying a concealed weapon (can't remember the exact penal code section right now)

This got my blood boiling because of the lack of any charges about being a convicted felon, brandishing, assault, etc..he was only charged with having the firearms. So I looked at the complaint. The two counts of possession of a deadly weapon were for a "rifle", and a "handgun". They also added the enhancement for the pistol not being registered to him which made the case a felony.

Turns out he's from AZ, was visiting and got pulled over at a DUI checkpoint with a loaded pistol on the floorboard and a loaded rifle in the trunk. Now the poor guy is facing charges in a state where he doesn't even live, that could affect his right to ever possess a firearm again. All because he chose to be ignorant of the law where he was visiting. Everything he did would have been perfectly legal in Tucson where he's from. There is something seriously wrong with this.

So this warning goes out to everyone...KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU VISIT!

Poor guy that sucks.

Scotty
11-02-2010, 12:08 PM
California isn't the only place where you can get into similiar trouble.

There have been people arrested when they are traveling with guns and miss a flight in NYC and have to stay overnight at a hotel.

Connor P Price
11-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Interstate violations of peoples rights like this give us a great opportunity to set some very positive legal precedent. Nobody knows that better than Gray.

paul0660
11-02-2010, 12:18 PM
I always make sure I know the gun laws and age of consent when I travel.

bruss01
11-02-2010, 12:38 PM
I always make sure I know the gun laws and age of consent when I travel.

Roger that, there's more than one kind of gun that can land you in trouble!

gobler
11-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Could it have been the Taurus Judge that got the 12020(a)(1) charges?

BTW we DO have a law that applies to all states.. it's the 2nd A. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". :mad:

rodeoflyer
11-02-2010, 12:54 PM
(800) 556-2109

Munk
11-02-2010, 3:39 PM
So glad to hear that the poor shmuck the OP was talking with is going to have his charges dropped...


Yeah well, they do that kind of stuff all the time in Imperial county...as an example they give tickets for tinted windows to cars with AZ plates. Tinted front windows are legal in AZ. I've even seen one for no front license plate on cars with AZ plates. AZ doesn't even issue front plates to cars registered there. Some of the LE in CA is so damn conceited and haughty it makes me sick sometimes. Although the Bailiff in the courtroom (Imperial county sheriff deputy and former lieutenant) said he would have just told the guy to unload his weapons and lock up the pistol...

Many of these can be fought off. The front plate just goes away usually, and the tint issue can be argued easy in court.

The windshield and front driver's side and passenger's side windows cannot receive any aftermarket tinting.
If the rear window of a vehicle is tinted, the vehicle must have outside rearview mirrors on both sides.

It it's a factory or dealer offering, then it can be as dark as the factory offered. Showing that this was an option at the time of purchase, and wasnt added as an aftermarket can get these tickets thrown out....

However, I know that some cops love to tag out of state people for petty crap like this because it's difficult or impossible for the person to come back from out of state and fight the ticket, even if the ticket is nonsense.

J.D.Allen
11-02-2010, 3:59 PM
Many of these can be fought off. The front plate just goes away usually, and the tint issue can be argued easy in court.

I have seen charges like this stick on occasion. remember for traffic matters you don't get free counsel and there's no jury trial. The court commissioner or referee makes the decision. You can appeal it to a three judge panel but it's all such a pain in the a@@ that most people just pay the ticket. I get so mad at the cops that do this though. It's usually CHP...

POLICESTATE
11-02-2010, 4:21 PM
BTW we DO have a law that applies to all states.. it's the 2nd A. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". :mad:

:thumbsup: Now if the government would actually follow the ultimate law of the land...

nicki
11-02-2010, 4:37 PM
The reality is many of us travel inter and intra state.

If we have a RKBA and the prime purpose is self defense in case of confrontation and it is a fundamental right subject to strict scrutiny review, then perhaps Congress should re affirm our rights and provide us means to seek damages for states that violate our rights.

If I had my way I would do it under "privileges and immunities" since I really would prefer to avoid the "Commerce Clause" even though I would have to use that to hedge bets.

Traveling with guns in your car opens up many legal minefields, no one should have to risk losing their rights over accidental/unintentional violations of oppressive laws.

Most people I have talked with regardless of wheter they are right/left feel that laws should have an inherent fairness about them and how they are applied.

Nicki

craneman
11-02-2010, 5:25 PM
Personally, I think the regulation of firearms should be stripped away from the states and there should be one set of laws for the entire US. My rights as a citizen should not change because I cross from one state to another.
__________________
I'm with you on this 100%.