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View Full Version : "Gun show loophole"...what is it?


Dreaded Claymore
11-02-2010, 6:13 AM
When I hear anti-gun types talk about guns, I keep hearing about the "gun show loophole." I have only a vague idea of what precisely people mean when they say this, what I usually hear is that no background check is conducted for private party transfers.

Can you guys please tell me:

1. What exactly do anti-gun types mean when they say "gun show loophole?"

2. Does the "gun show loophole," as anti-gunners define it, actually exist?

Thank you so much, in advance.

G-forceJunkie
11-02-2010, 6:17 AM
In other states, people can buy and sell firearms with no waiting period or background check, typically private party to private party sales. So, one could (Criminals included) go to a gunshow, cash in hand, and walk out with a firearm, bypassing the background check and "cooling off" waiting period.

jester
11-02-2010, 6:36 AM
Its a "term" used by the media to scare the stupid..

creekside
11-02-2010, 7:02 AM
When I hear anti-gun types talk about guns, I keep hearing about the "gun show loophole." I have only a vague idea of what precisely people mean when they say this, what I usually hear is that no background check is conducted for private party transfers.

The term 'loophole' only makes sense in the context of an unspoken assumption. That unspoken assumption is that all firearms transfers to or between unlicensed private persons should in some way involve the government. This could be through an instant background check, a reporting of the transaction for registration purposes (as with the "Dealers Record of Sale" process for private party transfers aka PPTs in California), or some third method.

Imagine if the only way you could buy a laptop computer in the United States from a retailer was to show identification, pass an 'instant laptop background check' to make sure that you are not among the people who aren't legally allowed to have laptops (yes, this can be a valid condition of probation or parole for some computer criminals and sex offenders), then have the retailer maintain a paper trail associating your name with the laptop.

Sales of laptops between private persons would then be a "laptop loophole." We could then "close the laptop loophole" by requiring that the buyer and seller file a "Laptop Record Of Sale" with a third party doing the "laptop background check" and possibly reporting to the government that the SN of the laptop is now in the new owner's name.

Sound ludicrous? Only because it is. Because laptops are expensive and warranties are valuable, there is often a voluntary process where the new owner reports their ownership to the manufacturer, and/or transfers an extended warranty when selling the laptop later. This is voluntary, not required by law.

There is no legal bar to selling your laptop for cash, through EBay or Craigslist or to a guy you met at the bar. "Closing the laptop loophole" would make this illegal. There are countries in which it is illegal to own, buy, sell or transfer laptops, modems and even fax machines without reporting it to the government. We tend to call these repressive regimes and/or dictatorships.

Note that when you sell a car from one private person to another, you both report the fact of the sale to the DMV. However, you don't normally make the buyer prove at the point of sale via a background check that s/he is eligible to buy a car.


1. What exactly do anti-gun types mean when they say "gun show loophole?"

Ask them. Drop an E-mail to Brady and/or LCAV.


2. Does the "gun show loophole," as anti-gunners define it, actually exist?

Do pro-life people think that abortion is murder, or do pro-choice people think that women have a right to control their own bodies? Are homosexuals doomed to hell, or should gays have the right to marry? Should 'special rights' be given to special groups, or should the government act to protect the civil rights of the minority? Should 'law and order politicians' be 'tough on crime' or should they work to empower the community and overcome discrimination and prejudice instead?

The term 'gun show loophole' is politically charged language at least as heavily charged as all of the above, if not more so.

rromeo
11-02-2010, 7:08 AM
Just like the fast food loophole, which allows you to purchase a cheeseburger and milkshake without leaving your vehicle.

Barabas
11-02-2010, 7:16 AM
There's no such thing as a loophole. Loophole assumes that the legislators intended one thing and wrote another. The people who write the laws are supposed to be smarter than you or I, at least they sure try to convince us of that every election cycle. There is no such thing as spirit of the law, only word of law. If they can't figure out how to regulate a particular activity, that's not our problem to solve.

So long as it remains lawful commerce, I will continue to participate in it.

CharlieK
11-02-2010, 7:20 AM
There is no "gunshow loophole" anymore than than there is a "guitar loophole". That's right, believe it or not, anyone can sell their guitar to anyone they like...no background check, no cooling off period, no government bureaucrat crawling up your rectum. Shocking, isn't it? Guitar reform now!!!

Do you know what kind of damage a Les Paul upside the head can do? Hey, it's for the children.

Wherryj
11-02-2010, 7:59 AM
Just like the fast food loophole, which allows you to purchase a cheeseburger and milkshake without leaving your vehicle.

It's rather ironic that you would mention this. Our government seems to be working towards closing the "fast food" loophole.

Part of "healthcare reform" is a law stating that physicians must record height and weight of all patients seen, then report it as a BMI. Medicare has had a requirement for "full vital signs", including height/weight, for quite a while, but now the push is to mandate electronic health records. The main reason for the EHR is to allow the insurer/government or anyone else "authorized" to the data to "mine" it.

I wouldn't worry about that fast food loophole. It appears that our masters are working on it. :rolleyes:

bjl333
11-02-2010, 8:07 AM
BOO !!! Thats what they are trying to do, trying to scare everyone into voting for more gun laws.

chiefcrash
11-02-2010, 8:09 AM
The way I like to think of it is: if there is a "gun show loophole", then driving 65MPH on the freeway must be the "speeding loophole"...

Either way, you're following what the laws says you can do...

russ69
11-02-2010, 8:33 AM
It does not exist. You have to follow the rules of your state. Some states allow a face to face transfer of firearms without using a firearms dealer. A gun show has no special privileges, the law of the land exists no matter where the transaction takes place.

Thanx, Russ

Blackhawk556
11-02-2010, 9:00 AM
Should it be called the, "No background check for PPT at gun shows loophole" then??
Will this fly?

They say its a loophole cus you don't have to go through a background check if you buy a gun through a private party.
The antis say it's a loophole because even a person with a long criminal record can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun from a private party without having the govt "check" on them

SgtDinosaur
11-02-2010, 9:32 AM
In free states it is common for people who want to sell a firearm to take it to a show and find a buyer. This is pefectly legal in those states, both at the show and otherwise. There is no loophole; that's all rhetoric. I bought two firearms this way in both Dallas and Atlanta.

Dexster
11-02-2010, 10:18 AM
Another thing that I haven't seen pointed out that at they will still check your DL to make sure that you aren't from another state prior to selling you the firearm. If someone that lives in Nevada wants to go to a gun show and buy a pistol they can do it... It's no different then how they can do handshake transfers without any cool-off period just the background check.

As stated multiple time it's in compliance of the law of the state and it's a way for states like our own to try and raise concerns at a federal level to influence other states laws... Another way to make our state look like we are filled with a bunch of hippies.

huck
11-02-2010, 10:32 AM
There is no "gunshow loophole" anymore than than there is a "guitar loophole". That's right, believe it or not, anyone can sell their guitar to anyone they like...no background check, no cooling off period, no government bureaucrat crawling up your rectum. Shocking, isn't it? Guitar reform now!!!

Do you know what kind of damage a Les Paul upside the head can do? Hey, it's for the children.


It's the accordion loophole that I want stopped.

Milsurp Collector
11-02-2010, 11:03 AM
When I hear anti-gun types talk about guns, I keep hearing about the "gun show loophole." I have only a vague idea of what precisely people mean when they say this, what I usually hear is that no background check is conducted for private party transfers.

Can you guys please tell me:

1. What exactly do anti-gun types mean when they say "gun show loophole?"

2. Does the "gun show loophole," as anti-gunners define it, actually exist?

Thank you so much, in advance.

Search is your friend http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=302112&highlight=loophole

jdberger
11-02-2010, 11:06 AM
Great explanation, Creekside.

rromeo
11-02-2010, 11:06 AM
A common thing out here is for sellers to ask for a concealed handgun permit, or voter ID card as proof of not being a felon.

CharlieK
11-02-2010, 1:04 PM
It's the accordion loophole that I want stopped.

Ha!

schnellfeuer300
11-02-2010, 1:19 PM
It's the accordion loophole that I want stopped.

I personally am pushing for them to close the Mobius strip loophole.

Librarian
11-02-2010, 1:44 PM
I personally am pushing for them to close the Mobius strip loophole.

Of course. We'll plug it with a Klein bottle.

schnellfeuer300
11-02-2010, 2:50 PM
Of course. We'll plug it with a Klein bottle.

Just don't use a Klein bagel, or else you'll open the Klein bagel loophole.

russ69
11-02-2010, 3:46 PM
Of course. We'll plug it with a Klein bottle.

You guys are way too smart, it hurts me to admit I know what you are talking about.

Thanx, Russ

bohoki
11-02-2010, 4:49 PM
its the same inflamitory term as the "gun buy back"

how can one buy something back that they never owned

Smokeybehr
11-02-2010, 4:53 PM
Of course. We'll plug it with a Klein bottle.

I see the geeks are in a rare form this afternoon.

If you don't know what a Klein bottle is, Google is your friend.

Josh3239
11-02-2010, 5:02 PM
1. What exactly do anti-gun types mean when they say "gun show loophole?"

They are referring to the fact that there is no federal law that disallows two unlicensed individuals from conducting a private sale of firearms without a transfer dealer present. This is legal federally, however state laws may allow it or outlaw it. According to those people, California has closed the "gunshow loophole" because we require all sales of firearms to go through an FFL.

The use of the work "gun show" is simply used as an attack on gun shows. A private sale in a state that allows it can be conducted anywhere, it is nothing more than an attempt to make gun shows sound like a dangerous black market event.


2. Does the "gun show loophole," as anti-gunners define it, actually exist?

In states that allow private sale of firearms, technically yes. However, it isn't a loophole and it isn't just for gun shows. If something is legal it is legal, if buying a gun privately at a gun show is a "gun show loophole", that must make buying alcohol at a liquer store a "liquer store loophole" or buying a car at a dealership a "dealership loophole". The points they are trying to make is that the sale of guns without a dealer present is dangerous and gun shows are nothing more than a black market show.

Pont
11-02-2010, 5:56 PM
Excellent explanation.
You could also liken it to the "cash loophole" for re-selling iPhones. The only "blesssed" way to buy an iPhone is on contract, but there's nothing illegal about buying one without.

oldrifle
11-02-2010, 5:59 PM
A red herring.

wellerjohn
11-02-2010, 7:25 PM
When I hear anti-gun types talk about guns, I keep hearing about the "gun show loophole." I have only a vague idea of what precisely people mean when they say this, what I usually hear is that no background check is conducted for private party transfers.

Can you guys please tell me:

1. What exactly do anti-gun types mean when they say "gun show loophole?"

2. Does the "gun show loophole," as anti-gunners define it, actually exist?

Thank you so much, in advance.

Misinformation and lies... Brady style

ale014
11-02-2010, 8:26 PM
A red herring.

Yup just some fancy college...wait no high school, yeah high school rhetoric that anti-gun people like to say.

It pretty much got covered by everyone else.

This required FFL law is probably the only law i agree with, well mostly, last thing i want is to register my weapons and find that a year later i have to turn it over because the law says i have to; hope Britain and Australia get their guns back! we DO NOT want to be in their current state of gun laws ouch...(my $.02 )

Anchors
11-02-2010, 8:43 PM
Furthermore, you can buy C&R long guns face to face in California. So if a criminal really wanted to legally buy a gun before he did something illegal with it (circular logic?!) he could just buy one like that.

But honestly, do anti-gun people REALLY think the kid buying a gun to shoot a rival drug dealer or do a drive-by is getting it from a real firearms dealer?
Seriously?

Why would he do that when he can go buy a throwaway on the street for less money and with no trail whatsoever? This is the same logic as saying "Well, now that meth is illegal, no one will do it. The lawful meth users won't be able to get it anymore, because it's so illegal..."

Dumb.

/Rant.

five.five-six
11-02-2010, 8:49 PM
Its a "term" used by the media to scare the stupid..


^ that

rromeo
11-05-2010, 8:57 AM
A loophole is the kind of law that allows a former two-term governor to be elected governor again, after the state passes a two-term limit.

stormy_clothing
11-05-2010, 1:21 PM
a loop hole is what people who have given up there freedoms call people who still have them. The return phrase is of course *** hole