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View Full Version : A fundamental 2A and unreasonable excise taxes


Some Guy
11-01-2010, 3:31 PM
Around the time Obama was elected, there were chain emails and references to a 500% excise tax on firearms and ammunition. This would price many people out of the RKBA. In a post McDonald America could a huge excise tax fly?

safewaysecurity
11-01-2010, 3:55 PM
It flies as long as Obama gets to stack the courts =). No it wouldn't. It would be like taxing certain books because their message is dangerous... it's goal is meant to prevent individuals from exercising of a core right. After Nordyke and other cases I'm looking forward to litigation against the time tables,conditions, and costs of CCW permits. Because with Strict Scrutiny in Nordyke I don't think they would pass constitutional muster.

dantodd
11-01-2010, 4:20 PM
Interesting as this is really just NFA taken to its logical extreme. Argument reductio ad absurdum

nicki
11-01-2010, 4:51 PM
I can't argue with the government collecting taxes for legitimate government programs, but the use of excise taxes as a form of backdoor prohibitions have threatened the very existance of all of our rights.

NFA lawsuits will have to be carefully crafted and the lawsuits will have to be one section at a time.

The original NFA would have included handguns, we were lucky that Congress removed handguns from the original law.

The next 10 years will decide if we will have our guns. Perhaps by 2025 we may get back full autos. By then we will probably have the first plasma rifles in the 40watt range and our guns will be "old school".


Nicki

dantodd
11-01-2010, 5:33 PM
The potential inclusion of handguns when they are the most prevalent form of firearm for self defense now may work in our favor. It shows the arbitrary nature if the law and that the arms covered are now only not in common use because if their inclusion.

littlejake
11-01-2010, 6:30 PM
The right to keep and bear arms existed before there was a Constitution... It is one of those unalienable rights of man that we are endowed with.

The 2nd Amendment says the R2KABA Shall not be infringed.

Associate SCOTUS Justice Scalia, in writing the majority opinion in DC v Heller, put to rest the argument that the first clause of the 2A limited that right to a collective right. He basically said, the first clause does not limit the second clause; and the second clause is the operational clause. Hence, he concluded it is an individual right.

I contend that any tax or fee on a fundamental right is unconstitutional.

Just as poll taxes were struck down, so too must all taxes and fees that encumber the R2KABA must also fall.

Uriah02
11-01-2010, 6:42 PM
However much I and many of use here dislike NFA, take into account that when the stamp was established it was the same price it is today. Hoping the calculator on dollartimes.com is correct, $200.00 in 1934 had the same buying power as $3,271.95 in 2010.
While it would be politically hazardous for any politician to do this it would be technically correct.

rabagley
11-01-2010, 8:27 PM
I contend that any tax or fee on a fundamental right is unconstitutional.

Just as poll taxes were struck down, so too must all taxes and fees that encumber the R2KABA must also fall.

This. Just as the government cannot tax institutions of religious worship because the power to tax is the power to destroy, neither can they tax the right to keep arms or the right to bear arms.

A fee that costs much more than the actual administrative cost of a nondiscriminatory license is unconstitutional. A discriminatory license (except for carefully crafted boundaries of discrimination that are clearly in the public interest) is obviously completely out of bounds.

Some Guy
11-01-2010, 8:58 PM
Keep in mind there are already excise taxes on firearms, ammunition, bows, and arrows.

J-cat
11-01-2010, 9:07 PM
In order for taxes to pass constitutional muster, they must have a revenue raising purpose, not a punitive one.

N6ATF
11-01-2010, 9:19 PM
That's the great thing about taxes, they go both ways.

dantodd
11-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Just as poll taxes were struck down, so too must all taxes and fees that encumber the R2KABA must also fall.

Do you know SPECIFICALLY why poll taxes are illegal?

franklinarmory
11-02-2010, 7:00 AM
Keep in mind there are already excise taxes on firearms, ammunition, bows, and arrows.
Yeah, and let me be the first to tell you that the form is a real pain in the A55!

I'm okay with paying the tax (10% on pistols, 11% on rifles,) but it's obvious some Washington technocrat created the form. They demand that you break out the collection & write off periods to as small as every two weeks! Why does Washington need to know that much detail?

Vote for your conservative candidates today and 500% excise taxes will be a non-issue. (..for at least the next two years!)

yellowfin
11-02-2010, 7:17 AM
It doesn't take much for a tax to be destructive. A tax of 10% or so nearly wiped out the boat industry in the US in the 80's. In addition, compliance costs and dead weight loss vastly magnify the true damage of a tax.

littlejake
11-02-2010, 8:38 AM
Do you know SPECIFICALLY why poll taxes are illegal?

The intent of poll taxes was to disenfranchise a segment of citizens. The targeted group was based upon race.

It can be argued that taxes and fees on arms denies a fundamental right to a segment of the populace.

nicki
11-02-2010, 10:22 AM
The excise tax on fireams is supposed to be used to maintain game habitat. This is reasonable for "sporting arms".

Of course this brings up the issue of "non sporting arms". Perhaps a future gun case?

Nicki

Wherryj
11-02-2010, 10:59 AM
The excise tax on fireams is supposed to be used to maintain game habitat. This is reasonable for "sporting arms".

Of course this brings up the issue of "non sporting arms". Perhaps a future gun case?

Nicki

The government in this state has said many times that UBRs have "no sporting use", thus shouldn't they be exempt from the excise tax to preserve game habitat?
:confused: