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ERdept
11-01-2010, 12:34 PM
Haven't shot the AR in a loooooong time.


Just wanna get it clear. The substitution of the "Monsterman" brand grip allows me to use my High cap mags?

civilsnake
11-01-2010, 12:37 PM
Haven't shot the AR in a loooooong time.


Just wanna get it clear. The substitution of the "Monsterman" brand grip allows me to use my High cap mags?

As long as the rifle has no other "evil features" then yes, you can use your preban magazines. No flash hiders, no collapsible/telescoping stock, etc. Other rules regarding length and barrel length still apply.

X-NewYawker
11-01-2010, 12:38 PM
If you have no other evil features -- flash hider, vertical foregrip, collapsible stock.

Featureless:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/P1010092.jpg

Then you can use any legally acquired hi caps you already have in it

ERdept
11-01-2010, 1:08 PM
Then I can get rid of the "bullet button" too? I have the Daniel Defense basic model, This........

http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=267

Is this considered a flash hider? Is the Battle comp a flash hider?

What do you suggest as a replacement for the "Flash hider" if this is it?

Also what about the bayonet mount?

SarcoBlaster
11-01-2010, 1:12 PM
Then I can get rid of the "bullet button" too?
Yes. On a featureless build, you can use a standard magazine release and legally owned high capacity magazines.

Is this considered a flash hider? Is the Battle comp a flash hider?
The muzzle device seen on the upper you linked is an A2 "birdcage" flash hider, so that would be a definite no-no on a featureless build.

As far as the legalities of the Battlecomp muzzle brake, the jury is still out on that one. You have one side saying it is legal because it's marketed as a compensator, but the other side is saying it's illegal because it does perceptibly reduce flash whether it's marketed as a compensator or not.

What do you suggest as a replacement for the "Flash hider" if this is it?
I put a YHM muzzle brake on mine. At $30 or so, it's not terribly expensive if I decide I don't like it and want to replace it with something else.

BKTJ
11-01-2010, 1:18 PM
For the muzzle device, its best not to have one. Just use a screw on muzzle protector. Unless you can prove your muzzle device is not a flash hider.

crob
11-01-2010, 2:13 PM
If you have no other evil features -- flash hider, vertical foregrip, collapsible stock.

Featureless:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/P1010092.jpg

Then you can use any legally acquired hi caps you already have in it

Was that rifle in the Tactical Weapons story about the border patrol aux?

civilsnake
11-01-2010, 2:27 PM
Then I can get rid of the "bullet button" too? I have the Daniel Defense basic model, This........

http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=267

Is this considered a flash hider? Is the Battle comp a flash hider?

What do you suggest as a replacement for the "Flash hider" if this is it?

Also what about the bayonet mount?

First off, you MUST REMOVE THE BULLET BUTTON IF YOU WANT TO USE HICAPS!! Attaching a magazine with capacity greater than 10 to a fixed mag rifle (bullet button) makes an instant assault weapon in this state.

The order is: remove/replace all evil features (pistol grip, telescoping stock, flash hider, vertical grip), remove 10-round magazine, attach MonsterManGrip (or similar grip device like Hammerhead), remove bullet button. Then and only then can you use your hicaps.

That upper you posted has an A2 flash hider and a forward vertical grip, both of which are no-nos. Bayonet lug is fine.

The BattleComp is iffy ground. While not advertised as a flash suppressor, it does reduce flash signature, so you're taking a chance, albeit a small one. I would stick with a more traditional muzzle brake, but that's just me. It's a comfort level thing.

deadcoyote
11-01-2010, 2:30 PM
Just a heads up. It was explained to me previously, perhaps innaccurately, that DOJ left the MMG/featureless type build issue with detachable mag up to the DA of whatever jurisdiction you live in. I'm actally in a bit of a kerfluffle right now as I just bought a exile machine grip and 5 hi cap mags to convert my rifle from the current BB configuration (i'm excluded so the mags were purchased legally). My DA's office informed me last week that they consider featureless builds to be AW's, while they are ok with BB builds. I attempted to explain my understanding of the laws, they simply said detachable mag is
AW regardless of anything else. I'm hoping to make a second run this week with the flow chart, see if I can gain some traction.:chris:

MonsterMan
11-01-2010, 2:35 PM
FUD. Featureless rifles are no different than any mini-14 (or sililar) that you would buy at any gun store. Ask him to show you the penal code that back up their opinion.

X-NewYawker
11-01-2010, 2:37 PM
Was that rifle in the Tactical Weapons story about the border patrol aux?

Bingo!
Sharp eyes. You get a "no-prize"

MonsterMan
11-01-2010, 2:38 PM
Oh, the doj has refused to give an opinion on any product that is meant for off list rifles. Not just mmg's.

X-NewYawker
11-01-2010, 2:38 PM
Just a heads up. It was explained to me previously, perhaps innaccurately, that DOJ left the MMG/featureless type build issue with detachable mag up to the DA of whatever jurisdiction you live in. I'm actally in a bit of a kerfluffle right now as I just bought a exile machine grip and 5 hi cap mags to convert my rifle from the current BB configuration (i'm excluded so the mags were purchased legally). My DA's office informed me last week that they consider featureless builds to be AW's, while they are ok with BB builds. I attempted to explain my understanding of the laws, they simply said detachable mag is
AW regardless of anything else. I'm hoping to make a second run this week with the flow chart, see if I can gain some traction.:chris:

I guess you don't mean you JUSt bought hi-caps...

deadcoyote
11-01-2010, 2:41 PM
Yes I just bought the mags, I noted in the post I'm excluded in the penal code (LEO). It was a fully legit purchase. Now I just need to convince the DA's office featureless isn't illegal.:confused:

MonsterMan
11-01-2010, 2:44 PM
Send them the flow chart. They may not be familiar as to what a featureless rifle really is.

X-NewYawker
11-01-2010, 2:46 PM
Yes I just bought the mags, I noted in the post I'm excluded in the penal code (LEO). It was a fully legit purchase. Now I just need to convince the DA's office featureless isn't illegal.:confused:

Whew!
:)

sevensix2x51
11-01-2010, 2:48 PM
Yes I just bought the mags, I noted in the post I'm excluded in the penal code (LEO). It was a fully legit purchase. Now I just need to convince the DA's office featureless isn't illegal.:confused:

sounds like, if all else fails, your da's office is going to have to use a seat donut for the CGF footprint that they will be suffering from, should they actually try to apply their interpretation of the law.. :)

deadcoyote
11-01-2010, 2:49 PM
Oh, the doj has refused to give an opinion on any product that is meant for off list rifles. Not just mmg's.

I'm not trying to slam MMG, or anything like that. I had just been previously informed by my FFL to get the DA's approval before using a MMG or exile machine hammerhead. Obviously its not working out quite like I planned. I'll let you know how it works out for me.

deadcoyote
11-01-2010, 2:53 PM
If one of the Calguns legal beagles PM's me a link to some kind of case decision or some other DOJ ruling showing me I'm in the clear 100% I wouldnt mind just doing my featureless build and being the test monkey for our county. My lower is CMMG and my upper's a Colt HBAR 20" A2 with a target crown so I'm good to go along with my A2 stock.

PS, sorry to hijack the MMG thread.

MonsterMan
11-01-2010, 3:00 PM
Go to the MMG website an click the "legal info" link. There is a PDF that Chuck Michel put together for the DOJ outlining how and why the grip is legal. The DOJ never answered the letter.

I would provide a link for you but I am at work and only have my phone.

MonsterMan
11-01-2010, 3:01 PM
As far as any cases, they never makebit to trial. They are all dropped and rifles are given back to their owners. If you hear of something let me know. :)

deadcoyote
11-01-2010, 3:13 PM
Just typed something up at work and have attached the flowchart and a BB flyer i received from Calguns to distribute to other LEO's/shooters. I'm hoping my calm and rational request will be answered in by thursday. I'll let you all know.

ERdept
11-01-2010, 5:38 PM
K, im debating between the VLTOR ARM-1S and the Sully stock.

deadcoyote
11-03-2010, 2:41 PM
Our DA's office responded today, have stated featureless is ok after viewing the flowchart. I even gave them some extras to try to help out. Good to know!

SuperSet
11-03-2010, 2:45 PM
Excellent news! I'm hoping that that kind of documentation (i.e. the DA response) can be widely distributed within LE circles.

civilsnake
11-03-2010, 2:51 PM
K, im debating between the VLTOR ARM-1S and the Sully stock.

Well the Sully is a shorty stock, and the vltor just has a lot of piece. Why not just an A2 for a lot less money?

Exile Machine
11-03-2010, 3:29 PM
Our DA's office responded today, have stated featureless is ok after viewing the flowchart.

Not to thread-jack but would you be willing to post their response? Was it a hardcopy or email?

-Mark

xibunkrlilkidsx
11-03-2010, 5:12 PM
Wait if he is LEO cant he get his AR registered(something from the Capt?) and use the rifle with all its evilness?

deadcoyote
11-03-2010, 5:35 PM
My chief doesn't give dept letters, they replied to me in an intra department e-mail and I'd rather not post its contents here. They simply admitted it was a mistake and told me to build away.