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Kestryll
06-14-2006, 7:13 PM
I just found this on the BATFE site.
It looks to me like even if someone mods a C&R it still is classed as a C&R.

Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms, and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).] Surplus military firearms are generally prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3). However, 18 U.S.C. § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles, shotguns, and handguns classified as curios or relics; provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Nonsporting handguns are those pistols and revolvers that do not meet size and safety prerequisites, or which do not accrue a qualifying score on ATF Form 4590, "Factoring Criteria for Weapons." Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.

From this url:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/061201curios.htm

NeoWeird
06-14-2006, 7:25 PM
My understanding of it is that a C&R remains a C&R, even when sporterized, because the frame is the firearm and when it is 50+ years or older, it is grandfathered as a C&R. Changing anything on it doesn't change it's relic status.

However, C&R rifles that are Curios, for example an AR-15 anniversary model, loses its C&R status if you were to, for example, change the upper. C&Rs that are C&Rs by configuartion and not by age CAN loses their C&R status. That is at least how I understood it.

Yute
06-14-2006, 7:32 PM
Hmm very interesting, thanks - been looking for that clause for a while!

Question though, say i rebarrel a garand with a new commerical barrel - I guess this means its still C&R right?

socal57chevy
06-14-2006, 7:51 PM
Yep...Thanks for posting the info.

radioactivelego
06-14-2006, 8:18 PM
This has me wondering about Class II/III C&R like, for example, SBR Mosin's...

NeoWeird
06-14-2006, 9:35 PM
Again, this is how I understand it and it may be wrong.

Hmm very interesting, thanks - been looking for that clause for a while!

Question though, say i rebarrel a garand with a new commerical barrel - I guess this means its still C&R right?

Well it depends on when your Garand was made. If it is a recent'y made reproduction that it won't matter as it's not a C&R to begin with; where as if it is 50+ years old (as most CMP rifles are) than it doesn't matter what you do to it as it will still be 50+ years old and will be a C&R. So changing the barrel does not change it's C&R status in regards to age.

However, if you have a C&R newly made Garand (like a WWII commemerative model) that you rebarrel in .308 you just negated it's C&R status. It is not 50+ years old, and as such is not a relic, and you altered to to osmething other than it's original Curio factory condition (being chambered for the original .30-06) so you have now negated it as a C&R rifle.


This has me wondering about Class II/III C&R like, for example, SBR Mosin's...

All rifles that are SBRs require you pay the tax except in the case of C&Rs that were SBRs in their original factory condition. If Germany had a special calvary/carrier reigment and they issued them 12" K98s to make them easier to carry on horseback then you could leglally own the SBR k98 without paying the federal tax stamp.

I am not entirely sure how it all applies to California law, but I would assume that if it was not registered with the DOJ than you could not legally own it as California also has length requirments on longguns, C&R or not. It would be like trying to import a C&R rifle that was banned by feature into California; it doesn't matter if it's legal at a federal level, the CA DOJ says no so we can't have them.

VeryCoolCat
06-18-2006, 5:10 PM
I know Non Sporterized 922 Compliant SKSs are not C&R anymore.

EOD Guy
06-18-2006, 5:42 PM
Again, this is how I understand it and it may be wrong.

All rifles that are SBRs require you pay the tax except in the case of C&Rs that were SBRs in their original factory condition. If Germany had a special calvary/carrier reigment and they issued them 12" K98s to make them easier to carry on horseback then you could leglally own the SBR k98 without paying the federal tax stamp.



That is not true. Any NFA firearms require transfer paperwork and payment of the transfer tax. C&R status has no effect on the NFA status.

photog
06-18-2006, 6:23 PM
I know Non Sporterized 922 Compliant SKSs are not C&R anymore.


???????

???????

Kali says if its a federal C&R, its a Kali C&R.

You don't lose C&R status by leaving it "non-sporterized" i.e. original military configuration.

If its under 50y.o., and you sporterize the gun THEN its not C&R anymore, and thats at the federal level, ergo the Kali level too.

jmlivingston
06-18-2006, 8:38 PM
Kali says if its a federal C&R, its a Kali C&R.


Um, well sorta.... California doesn't define C&R, it's strictly a Federal definition. There's no such thing as a "California C&R", and in fact they simply acknowledge the Federal definition and in some instances allow specific exemptions to state law to occur for transactions involving Federally defined C&R firearms. I.e. true PTP transfer of long-guns which are over 50 years old as well as exempting purchases of Pistols from the 10-day wait when the purchase is made with an FFL03 and a COE.

John

MaxQ
06-19-2006, 1:57 AM
I just found this on the BATFE site.
It looks to me like even if someone mods a C&R it still is classed as a C&R.

From this url:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/061201curios.htm

As much as I'd really like to agree with you, I have a completely opposite interpretation.

Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).]

This just says that once a surplus military firearm, always a surplus military firearm (like the BATFE's once an MG, always an MG). It doesn't say that once a surplus military firearm is C&R, it's always C&R.

Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.

This last line is consistent with the BATFE determination that any non-original configuration surplus military firearms are not C&Rs, including bare frames and receivers. If you sporterize an existing C&R, it's no more a C&R than a bare receiver built up into a sporter configuration. I looked into this again a few months ago when Century had some dirt cheap MAS49 receivers. Everything I found led to the same conclusion - if it's not in it's original military config, it's not C&R. Of course, you can sporterize a C&R rifle, but then you're supposed to log it out of your bound book, as it's no longer a C&R.

ATF Rul. 85-10 has the info on frames, receivers and C&R configuration. I don't have a link handy, but it's on pages 130-131 of the 2005 Fed Fire Reg Ref Guide (White). The two parts that are relevant are:

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curio or relics.

Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items.


and from the last paragraph:

Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics unless they are assembled in their original military configuration, and applications for permits to import such firearms will not be approved.

So, a sporting firearm that uses a surplus military receiver is still considered a surplus military firearm, but it isn't considered a curio and relic.

saki302
06-19-2006, 4:47 AM
Anyone know the legality of C&R pistols with original shoulder stocks here- i.e. broomhandle Mauser with stock, ro Artillery Luger with stock? Federally, they are exempt from SBR registration.. State wise..?

-Dave

jmlivingston
06-19-2006, 6:15 AM
So, a sporting firearm that uses a surplus military receiver is still considered a surplus military firearm, but it isn't considered a curio and relic.

But that doesn't preclude qualifying a rifle as C&R via the over-50 rule, does it?

John

MaxQ
06-19-2006, 12:53 PM
John, interesting point. I had thought that all non-assembled firearms (military or not) were not C&R eligible, based on what I remembered from the green book (2000 Fed Guide). I couldn't find this info in the white book (2005), so I dug out my green book, and in comparing them, I found that two paragraphs have been omitted. If anyone has both books handy, compare green book page 119, item 8c, with white book page 160, item 7c. Both discuss licensed collector's activities, and the verbiage in the green book is similar to what I quoted before from ATF Ruling 85-10.

The two paragraphs state:

However, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration.

Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they are not of special interest or value as collectors' items. Specifically, they do not meet the definition of curio or relic in 27 CFR 178.11 as firearms of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons.

Now, nowhere in there was there any indication that this didn't apply to 50+ year old non-military rifles, so I took it to mean all C&Rs (erring on the side of caution). I couldn't find any similar wording in the 2005 white book. So, did the BATFE change its mind? Did someone forget to include those paragraphs in the 2005 revision? I don't know. I haven't seen any opinions on the C&R boards that any bare frames are C&R eligible. Also, my C&R experience is mostly with military C&R rifles, and the only non-military C&Rs that I remember have been complete rifles, and the question never came up.

Thoughts, anyone?

glen avon
06-19-2006, 1:12 PM
As much as I'd really like to agree with you, I have a completely opposite interpretation.[snip]So, a sporting firearm that uses a surplus military receiver is still considered a surplus military firearm, but it isn't considered a curio and relic.

I agree with you

762cavalier
06-21-2006, 9:31 PM
[QUOTE][Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation/QUOTE]

actually it seems to me that the last three words of the law are the ones that have the most weight. they say "qualify for importation" the law does not cover mods to a C&R. I think this is why atf allows the CA "legal" yugo 59/66 to have the grenade launcher removed and replaced. IT is also why you need to comply with the 922r 10 or less rule to build AK's from kits. As ak's are not readily adaptable for sporting purposes according to atf. maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree but I have read the rule many times and it still seems as though the 50 yr rule supercedes the original config. rule for changing a guns parts.the 50 year rule is addressed first so it has more weight in law so it would seem.