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View Full Version : Is this typical of 91/30 accuracy?


rojocorsa
10-31-2010, 3:47 PM
Part of it could be me as well. I shot this from supported prone at 100 yds using PPU 182gr FMJBT. The crown on my rifle is more square than it is round. :p

The total size of the paper is 196 inches squared. It's 14"x14" roughly... The sight on my Mosin likes to shoot it to the left (haven't corrected that yet). I was using 6 o'clock hold.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6602/vintovkalkl002.jpg

BayAreaShooter
10-31-2010, 3:51 PM
IMO you should be able to get better accuracy out of a mosin, but im new to the mosin game. I have been able to get 3-4 of 5 in the black at 100 yards but I have to hold at the bottom of the target with the front site all the way at the bottom of the rear posts. I am sure a Mosin expert will chime in soon.

rojocorsa
10-31-2010, 3:55 PM
I have more book knowledge than field knowledge, so I wanted second opinions. I'm sure that because Mosins come in all sorts of conditions, it's probably kinda hard to judge them by an objective benchmark.



Though, I suspect I might actually flinch a little when I shoot it. How can I fix that.

BayAreaShooter
10-31-2010, 4:07 PM
I know more about flinch while shooting pistols than rifles but in the pistol world it consists of a lot of dry firing or .22's. The only advice I can give you is the slowly consistently pull the trigger and let the gun surprise you when it goes off.

jamesob
10-31-2010, 4:11 PM
unless the barrel is shot out, it's all you.

mosinnagantm9130
10-31-2010, 4:49 PM
In my experience, an "average" 91/30 should be capable of 3-4 MOA, that is, 3-4" groups at 100 yards. I'd try it benchrested, that should give you a better idea of the accuracy.

Mosins are also ammo picky, it might not shoot well with 182 grn, but it might with 150 grn, and things like that. In addition to testing it from the bench, you could try different types of ammo. Odds are that 91/30 could get much better accuracy.

I also developed a flinch after getting mosinitus, I fixed it with about 1,000 rds of .22 downrange:D

olhunter
10-31-2010, 4:59 PM
That's pretty bad.

Is it counter-bored? If so, the crown is irrelevant. If not, re-crown it. Pretty inexpensive even if you have someone else do it.

You can try different ammo and a very solid rest, but some just don't shoot.

I wouldn't spend much time or money on it. They're only $69 at aimsurplus. Just get another one! Or shoot at 25 yds. lol....

Edit -

Though, I suspect I might actually flinch a little when I shoot it. How can I fix that.

I know more about flinch while shooting pistols than rifles but in the pistol world it consists of a lot of dry firing or .22's. The only advice I can give you is the slowly consistently pull the trigger and let the gun surprise you when it goes off.

What BayAreaShooter said. And you have to practice that. A lot. But a Mosin is not a great gun for that. You're anticipating the recoil and yanking the trigger just to get it over with. Once you develop a flinch, it's REALLY HARD to get rid of it. Practice your trigger control with a .22.

Here's a good drill for determining whether you're flinching and also to get rid of it.

Have a buddy next to you randomly loading live and fired rounds into the chamber while you shut your eyes or look away. Then shoot. If it's the dead round, you'll notice the flinch. When you work on it and it just goes 'click' without the twitch, you're on your way.

1970msp
10-31-2010, 5:14 PM
This is just my opinion but when I shoot mine it makes a significant difference (not as accurate for me) if I don't have the bayonet attached.

Peter.Steele
10-31-2010, 5:14 PM
Yeah, that's pretty awful, actually. I've got a 1929 91/30 that shoots fist-sized groups, easily, at 100 yards. My 1944 PU shoots sub-MOA, so long as I'm doing my part.

My rifles both like the 1970's Polish light ball the best. It's ... what is it, 147 grain? 148? Something like that. Can't remember for sure. I do know that neither of them like heavy ball at all. I haven't tried anything other than the Polish light ball with my Finn. My carbines, on the other hand, seem to like the heavy ball better.

As for your sights being off low and to the right, try shooting with the bayonet fixed. These rifles were sighted in with bayonets fixed, and Soviet doctrine at the time was to have the bayonet fixed at all times, unless the soldier was in a vehicle for transport or the rifle was to be racked for a long period of time. Having the bayonet fixed or not fixed affects the vibration characteristics of the barrel. My M44 and the 1929 91/30 are both dramatically off to the left with the bayonet unfixed. Fixed bayonets, fixed point of impact. (My 91/30 PU, the Finn 91/30, and the M38 of course, were set up without a bayonet.)

CSACANNONEER
10-31-2010, 5:24 PM
I have more book knowledge than field knowledge, so I wanted second opinions. I'm sure that because Mosins come in all sorts of conditions, it's probably kinda hard to judge them by an objective benchmark.



Though, I suspect I might actually flinch a little when I shoot it. How can I fix that.

I can shoot .5 moa at 1000 yards with other guns. But, with the 3 Mosins I still own, I can't shoot 5 moa at 100 yards. I have a real problem shooting them. Even dry firing, I really flinch with every Mosin I've tried. I've pretty much given up on them and moved toward K31s instead.

Milsurp Collector
10-31-2010, 5:47 PM
Though, I suspect I might actually flinch a little when I shoot it. How can I fix that.

I think your observation is right on the money. I'm not going to be Mr. Macho Man and pretend that I don't mind the recoil of a Mosin. Of all my rifles, my Mosin carbines hurt the most to shoot. If you are anticipating that recoil it is going to make you flinch and throw off your aim.

I use a Past recoil pad for most of my rifle shooting.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?tabid=14&categoryid=9210&categorystring=10611***688***&brandId=1125

I will not shoot my Mosins without it. It eliminates all of the recoil pain, so you won't flinch and you can practice longer.

I was reading some of the customer reviews of the Past pads at MidwayUSA and other people noticed that using one improved their accuracy.


Really tamed the recoil of my ultra mag. My groups were never tighter.

This is an AWESOME product! But it took me awhile to realize how effective it was cause I thought I would look like a wimp, BUT it sure did reduce my group size!!! I thought I had pretty good control but obviously was still anticipating recoil & once I started using this shield regularly the difference was astounding. The recoil pad really does make a major difference & even my stoutest (30-06 Garand & 7.62X54R) were tamed.. I felt NOTHING! As a result my shooting improved greatly! Get one NOW! Great for small people & females too. You will NOT be disappointed...

This thing really works great. I believe that nothing is perfect, well the only thing that would make the recoil pad perfect would be to have it put itself on you. I used this one for the past 3 weeks before writing the review. I shoot a 300wsm and 30/06 and both used to leave my shoulder black and blue for almost a week after a day at the range, Not to mention my groups would start to fall off as the day went on due to me flinching. Well now i would can take all 3 of my heavy hitters to the range and shoot as much as i want. I also cut my avg group size in half. I am going to go over my load data again and do some more development. I am betting that my poor groups where from me flinching from the recoil. Past could give you some kind of a money back guarantee, it is that good.


The comment about the bayonet is also valid. The rifle was zeroed with the bayonet fixed. After you solve the flinch problem see if the rifle shoots better with the bayonet fixed.

rojocorsa
10-31-2010, 6:22 PM
I don't have the bayonet.


I've shot from the bench with similar groups as well. OK, I noticed they were a little closer.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs609.snc4/58903_429116121287_732281287_5604515_1349580_n.jpg

Again, same rifle, same distance, and same ammo. I do want to try some light ball, but I don't have any right now.


Is this second picture acceptable? I must add that I was aiming for the lower corned intentionally. Well, keep in mind that my sight is off to the left. But I was aiming low.

BTW, I am pretty sure that I do not jerk the trigger. I've known about that since I got my rifle merit badge a long time ago.


I think it's probably me needing more practice. I notice that I flinch just a little when the primer is too hard and I have to re-cock. Just a little.

And the only way to fix that is by shooting .22? What happens if you shoot the Mosin more, until it feels right?

cruddymutt
10-31-2010, 6:33 PM
I was always taught that when the weapon fires it should be a surprise. My friend flinches when he shoots his Mosins and that advice helped him.

CSACANNONEER
10-31-2010, 6:37 PM
I think your observation is right on the money. I'm not going to be Mr. Macho Man and pretend that I don't mind the recoil of a Mosin.

I'm positive that my flinch is not from anticipating recoil. I can go from a 50BMG to a Mosin to a light weight 300WM and, the only time I flinch in trying to pull the aweful Mosin trigger.

Dr.Mauser
10-31-2010, 6:42 PM
As stated before, if the barrel is shot out (which it may be) then its the gun.

rojocorsa
10-31-2010, 7:34 PM
I don't think the barrel is shot out. That thing passes the "bullet test" and I can clearly see the rifling inside.

Dr.Mauser
11-01-2010, 2:23 PM
But what is the gauge? Those rifles saw YEARS of combat and then storage, you'll never know.

mosinnagantm9130
11-01-2010, 6:45 PM
I don't think the barrel is shot out. That thing passes the "bullet test" and I can clearly see the rifling inside.

Is there any pitting in the bore?

WWII collector
11-01-2010, 6:47 PM
This seemed to help me and my 11 grandson will shoot any of my rifles now.

http://shooterpads.com/

rojocorsa
11-01-2010, 8:45 PM
But what is the gauge? Those rifles saw YEARS of combat and then storage, you'll never know.

That, I wouldn't know...

Is there any pitting in the bore?

There is some. But then again, I hear people all the time saying that their sweetest mil-surp is beat to hell and had tons of pitting. The thing about all these rifles, I think is that they are all unique in their own special way. These old guns have their quirks.

lagann
11-03-2010, 10:00 AM
The later group that you got when you shot bench rested i think is about right for an off the shelf mosin 91/30. Mines might have been a little better before i accurized it though :p

Read this http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu75.htm

So....if you dont mind messing with the collectors value of your 91/30...i really suggest doing that.

Thats what i did to my big5 mosin and now i get about 3-4 moa groups consistently bench rested.

Just so that i wont be all talk no show...i have attached a pic of a group of my 91/30 out of many i have done with similar results.

I do have to mention that my 91/30 shoots waaay high at 100 yards. I have to hold it six o clock of the whole target....will be doing a modification on the front sight in the future.

I do think the groups could get better as me as a shooter improve though....and also once i do a trigger job for it, which usually includes polishing some trigger parts.

Also keep in mind that you want to clean the barrel as clean as you can....without going overboard. Initial cleaning (after i received it) was with mineral spirits, then followed with soaking the entirety of the barrel (used a cork to plug the barrel) with hoppes 9, then did the same with CLP. After i started shooting, I used J-B NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND with excellent results. My bore is pretty shiny now :)

Disclaimer: Do everything at your own risk!! Though its a cheap gun....so who cares if you mess it up! just buy a new one!

Hope that helps.

Edit- Forgot to add that i did free float the barrel by sanding the stock (the part where the barrel meets the stock) down. Also putting a piece of cork at the end of the barrel helps for some but also doesnt for some. Just have to try it yourself to see if your specific rifle likes it. Last thing i want to add is that when you bed the stock and free float the barrel....it takes some time for the barrel to settle. So you will get inconsistent groups at the beginning.

foesgth
11-03-2010, 11:20 AM
Nagants have pretty nasty triggers. The only one that I have that shoots well I put a Timey trigger and bedded the action. It is MOA or perhaps less with some good ammo. Take a look at this it will help. (http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinnaganttrigger/index.asp)

Wildeman_13
11-03-2010, 11:27 AM
Mine shot that bad at first as well. I suggest you bed the stock and cork the barrel and you will see a huge improvement in your groups. The rest is you and the recoil. ;P

How to bed a rifle stock:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu75.htm

Corking a barrel is really just finding the thinnest cork material you can, and laying small bits under the barrel along the handguard. a tiny bit goes a long way. You are trying to get a snug fit with no room for vibration. 91/30s don't care if the bayonet is on or not from all I have seen. But I am no expert there. The M44s do care about the bayonet being out tho.

pullnshoot25
11-03-2010, 2:39 PM
It looks like you are flinching just a bit. I recommend the exercises listed above (loading dummies, etc) and possibly tuning up the rifle a bit (doesn't hurt). Tuning would include minor sanding inside the stock, putting some thin cork under the barrel, maybe even getting that baby counterbored :)

plinker
11-03-2010, 7:36 PM
My 91/30 also had problems with consistency, large spread. I did a Mosin Trigger Job after some Google research on various sites and the results where very positive.
Polished all applicable parts and reduced pull weight.

eighteenninetytwo
11-03-2010, 7:54 PM
I'm going to suggest something different. I suggest leaving the rifle alone and practicing initially either with a 22 or dry fire. Then when you're confident you are not the problem you can look at the rifle after that.

lagann
11-03-2010, 10:00 PM
I'm going to suggest something different. I suggest leaving the rifle alone and practicing initially either with a 22 or dry fire. Then when you're confident you are not the problem you can look at the rifle after that.

or he can just ask someone who he knows is a pretty good shot, shoot his mosin.

rojocorsa
11-03-2010, 10:10 PM
I'm going to suggest something different. I suggest leaving the rifle alone and practicing initially either with a 22 or dry fire. Then when you're confident you are not the problem you can look at the rifle after that.

I guess I'll keep doing dry fire. Once I can "refresh" my spending money, I will be buying a CZ-452.




or he can just ask someone who he knows is a pretty good shot, shoot his mosin.

I would like to see that and do that, acutally.






Also, am I in the wrong for assuming that prone is more stable than a bench?

rojocorsa
11-03-2010, 10:12 PM
I think working from the bench is boring, but next time I'll go--I'll try it and see if I did any different...

knucklehead0202
11-03-2010, 10:22 PM
that's more typical of enfield accuracy. the first 5 or so fairly close, then they look like a shotgun.

rojocorsa
11-03-2010, 11:23 PM
that's more typical of enfield accuracy. the first 5 or so fairly close, then they look like a shotgun.

You're joking, right? I always thought Lee-Enfields would be more accurate than 91/30s...

rojocorsa
11-03-2010, 11:36 PM
I've actually wanted to cork my Mosin, but the Box of Truth article isn't really specific on how to do it correctly. It says what to do, but not specifically.

Timbob55
11-04-2010, 7:29 AM
In my limited experience I have found them to be quite variable.

For instance, I have 2 M44's, one laminate and one not. The laminate shoots just fine, the wooden one I can't get on paper.

So, as with any MILSURP gun, it is a crap shoot.

But it's fun!

eighteenninetytwo
11-04-2010, 8:34 AM
Knucklehead. Your comment re "Enfield accuracy" is simply way off the mark. Even into the 1960's Lee enfields (and let's remind ourselves that they are a design from the 1890s) were the rifles of choice for long distance shooting around the world. The fact is that ANY rifle can shoot badly if not looked after or set up well and milsurps in general are more susceptible than most to this. The feature you describe is typical of any misurp which isn't bedded symmetrically because after a few rounds the wood starts to heat and if touching the barrel it affects the barrel harmonics in an asymmetric manner.

knucklehead0202
11-04-2010, 9:41 PM
Knucklehead. Your comment re "Enfield accuracy" is simply way off the mark. Even into the 1960's Lee enfields (and let's remind ourselves that they are a design from the 1890s) were the rifles of choice for long distance shooting around the world. The fact is that ANY rifle can shoot badly if not looked after or set up well and milsurps in general are more susceptible than most to this. The feature you describe is typical of any misurp which isn't bedded symmetrically because after a few rounds the wood starts to heat and if touching the barrel it affects the barrel harmonics in an asymmetric manner.

the choice for long-distance shooting around the world huh? which world would this be? there have been accurate enfields, but it's certainly not the world standard. if you want a REAL world example, check the status of military silhouette shoots. swede mausers, schmidt-rubins, 1917 enfields, 1903 springfields. occasionally, down the list a ways, is a lee-enfield or two, for those brave and confident enough to try it on. i knew i would elicit a comment or two with that one, and i am an enfield owner, but i'm also not into fooling myself. they're neat, but nowhere close to being the best. sorry.

Peter.Steele
11-04-2010, 10:57 PM
the choice for long-distance shooting around the world huh? which world would this be? there have been accurate enfields, but it's certainly not the world standard. if you want a REAL world example, check the status of military silhouette shoots. swede mausers, schmidt-rubins, 1917 enfields, 1903 springfields. occasionally, down the list a ways, is a lee-enfield or two, for those brave and confident enough to try it on. i knew i would elicit a comment or two with that one, and i am an enfield owner, but i'm also not into fooling myself. they're neat, but nowhere close to being the best. sorry.




They're spiffy enough guns, but they've got such a whippy barrel, and they don't do so well when it comes to high round counts, either.

FS00008
11-05-2010, 12:12 AM
the choice for long-distance shooting around the world huh? which world would this be? there have been accurate enfields, but it's certainly not the world standard. if you want a REAL world example, check the status of military silhouette shoots. swede mausers, schmidt-rubins, 1917 enfields, 1903 springfields. occasionally, down the list a ways, is a lee-enfield or two, for those brave and confident enough to try it on. i knew i would elicit a comment or two with that one, and i am an enfield owner, but i'm also not into fooling myself. they're neat, but nowhere close to being the best. sorry.

Yea uh... you're full of it buddy. Yea, Swede Mausers are more accurate, but Enfields are extremely accurate also.

FS00008
11-05-2010, 12:13 AM
Paul, if I get down there this weekend I'll bring you some Polish Light Ball for you to try.

mosinnagantm9130
11-05-2010, 2:09 PM
the choice for long-distance shooting around the world huh? which world would this be?

Australia, for one. Enfields do quite well in 1000 meter matches.

Milsurp Collector
11-05-2010, 5:12 PM
If anyone wants to improve the trigger on their Soviet Mosin there is a guy in Finland selling M39 trigger and sear sets for $35 shipped. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?176826-WTS-Bolt-on-trigger-job-for-Mosins

rojocorsa
11-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Paul, if I get down there this weekend I'll bring you some Polish Light Ball for you to try.


Thanks, dude. I appreciate it.

SixPointEight
11-06-2010, 12:41 PM
I can shoot .5 moa at 1000 yards with other guns. But, with the 3 Mosins I still own, I can't shoot 5 moa at 100 yards. I have a real problem shooting them. Even dry firing, I really flinch with every Mosin I've tried. I've pretty much given up on them and moved toward K31s instead.

You know...I have the same problem. I've shot .308's with no flinch fine, and even a 50 beowulf. However I go to shoot my mosin, and I flinch even if I'm dryfiring at home. I think it's the terrible trigger pull.

rojocorsa
11-07-2010, 5:37 PM
As far as Lee-Enfield vs. Mosin accuracy...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5261152&postcount=77

...

gorblimey
11-08-2010, 12:45 AM
The stock trigger can be improved quite a bit without replacing parts. There's a nice page or two out there describing the process, though I lost the link.

Have you slugged the bore? Please post the numbers, if so.

rojocorsa
11-08-2010, 7:45 AM
I just learned what "slugging the bore" is last week.

I'm not even sure that I have the proper equipment to do that or measure that chunk of lead when it comes out.

pullnshoot25
11-08-2010, 7:49 AM
I just learned what "slugging the bore" is last week.

I'm not even sure that I have the proper equipment to do that or measure that chunk of lead when it comes out.

Wooden dowel, a bit of lead and a calipers will work perfectly. I am certain that a Calgunner would be able to help you out :)

Peter.Steele
11-08-2010, 7:59 AM
Wooden dowel, a bit of lead and a calipers will work perfectly. I am certain that a Calgunner would be able to help you out :)


Don't forget the grease. A little bit of heavy axle or wheel bearing grease, something like that.

pullnshoot25
11-08-2010, 8:05 AM
Don't forget the grease. A little bit of heavy axle or wheel bearing grease, something like that.

I stand corrected!