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View Full Version : ZEROING (SIGHTING IN) Riflescope advice (first time) REM 700 SPS Tactical + pictures


Martan
10-30-2010, 8:19 PM
Hello All,
I just came back from the range with my new Remi 700 SPS Tactical 308 Win equiped with Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 Tactical scope.
The pictures under are my very first shots from bolt action rifle and I was trying to zero my scope at 100 yards. The groups are pretty bad I know, but that's why I'm posting it here for comments. I was only using Harris bipod and the rifle was shouldered the whole time. I guess the better idea would be using at least a rear sand bag for zeroing, am I right? The ammo I used was new 147gr. FMJ I bought at gun show. From the groups I was shooting it's hard to tell whether I should adjust the cope more or leave it alone.

Another question I have perhaps someone can answer, how far can you get with 16x max. power scope I have and still have decent groups? I know it all depends on the shooter and practice..., but just a ballpark.
Thanks for all the input.

I also had a box of 20 rounds Hornady 168gr BTHP Moly ammo, but since I had 200 rounds of the other one, I thought zeroing and practicing with cheaper ammo gets me more trigger time.
BTW, the rifle still has a factory X-trigger and Hogue stock.

The best group I had is the orange one on this target.

http://martan.homelinux.net/gallery_public/var/calguns/target1.jpg


http://martan.homelinux.net/gallery_public/var/calguns/target2.jpg

rero360
10-30-2010, 8:44 PM
Its hard to tell just by the groups and not seeing your form to know if the large groups are purely from the ammunition or bad form on your part.

I would say though by looking at the three groups on the bottom target that you need to work on firing every shot at the bottom of your natural respitory pause, and by the red and green groups up top you need to work on pulling the trigger straight back and not jerk it to either side. The large triange group is a combination of both.

If we look at the two with the quaters next to them, thats basically what you want, then its just a matter of fine tuning your form and the equipment to tighten the groups up more. I would also suggest start shooting 5 round groups as well as they will tell you more about what you, the rifle and the ammo are doing.

Also consider buying a box or two of each type of weight bullets, shoot some 5 round groups with each and that will tell you what weight bullet your rifle likes best, like mine likes 175 and 155 SMKs but throws 168s like a shotgun.

Martan
10-30-2010, 8:52 PM
Its hard to tell just by the groups and not seeing your form to know if the large groups are purely from the ammunition or bad form on your part.

I would say though by looking at the three groups on the bottom target that you need to work on firing every shot at the bottom of your natural respitory pause, and by the red and green groups up top you need to work on pulling the trigger straight back and not jerk it to either side. The large triange group is a combination of both.

If we look at the two with the quaters next to them, thats basically what you want, then its just a matter of fine tuning your form and the equipment to tighten the groups up more. I would also suggest start shooting 5 round groups as well as they will tell you more about what you, the rifle and the ammo are doing.

Also consider buying a box or two of each type of weight bullets, shoot some 5 round groups with each and that will tell you what weight bullet your rifle likes best, like mine likes 175 and 155 SMKs but throws 168s like a shotgun.

Hi, thank you, I appreciate that very much. The triangular group was the very first one and after that one I moved the cross hair by a click or two. One thing I noticed that the trigger pull was a little heavy, now I understand I guess what's all that hype with Jewell or Timney, but anyway, I should be able to to much better with trigger I have.

What do you think about using just a shoulder when zeroing ? Do you recommend something more stable?
Next time I'll also try 5 round groups as you recommend, makes sense.

Honeydos
10-30-2010, 8:58 PM
Hello All,
I just came back from the range with my new Remi 700 SPS Tactical 308 Win equiped with Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 Tactical scope.
The pictures under are my very first shots from bolt action rifle and I was trying to zero my scope at 100 yards. The groups are pretty bad I know, but that's why I'm posting it here for comments. I was only using Harris bipod and the rifle was shouldered the whole time. I guess the better idea would be using at least a rear sand bag for zeroing, am I right? The ammo I used was new 147gr. FMJ I bought at gun show. From the groups I was shooting it's hard to tell whether I should adjust the cope more or leave it alone.

Another question I have perhaps someone can answer, how far can you get with 16x max. power scope I have and still have decent groups? I know it all depends on the shooter and practice..., but just a ballpark.
Thanks for all the input.

I also had a box of 20 rounds Hornady 168gr BTHP Moly ammo, but since I had 200 rounds of the other one, I thought zeroing and practicing with cheaper ammo gets me more trigger time.
BTW, the rifle still has a factory X-trigger and Hogue stock.

The best group I had is the orange one on this target.

http://martan.homelinux.net/gallery_public/var/calguns/target1.jpg


http://martan.homelinux.net/gallery_public/var/calguns/target2.jpg


I have the same rifle and shoot dimes at 100 with 168GR BTHP from the bench

shouldered. Give the 168BTHP's a try. BTW the Xmark trigger is adjustable.

Martan
10-30-2010, 9:01 PM
I have the same rifle and shoot dimes at 100 with 168GR BTHP from the bench

shouldered. Give the 168BTHP's a try. BTW the Xmark trigger is adjustable.

I will, but I think in my case the problem is not just ammo selection. But good to know 168gr works well, thanks.

Juice5610
10-30-2010, 9:15 PM
First and foremost check out CAPRC.com and ask this question there.

You need match ammo in order to get nice tight groups. Gun show surplus ammo is **** compared to match ammo. Hand loads is what you want to do, buy reloading equipment and learn how to use it. If your serious about shooting bolt action rifles if not you need to pony up and buy some match ammo black hills is good. A rear bag would definitely help you out. (link below). as far as magnification 10x is good to 1,000 yards + you should be fine at 16x. As for your groups better ammo would help alot also practice your breathing and trigger control. Xmark trigger is **** I tossed mine and got a timney trigger from midwayusa.com it is awesome.

link to rear bags(I use the tab rear bag and like it alot)
http://www.triadtactical.com/Bean-Bags-Shooting-Rests/

Check out caprc.com (check out the second link in my sig)

rero360
10-30-2010, 9:17 PM
I would suggest zeroing the rifle set up exactly the way you plan on doing most of your shooting. If you plan on doing most of it from the prone then all you need is the bipod and a rear bag or a thick glove for your support hand (heavy leather or something similar) this will keep your hand from getting sore and fatigued and will prevent your pulse from entering into the rifle. I was battling that myself today as I forgot my rear bag at home.

If those are all your rounds and you didn't throw any off of the targets then I would say everything should be nice and snug, but it doesn't hurt to go thru and make sure all bolts and screws and nice and tight.

I also find shooting from the prone to be much easier as you get your entire body behind the rifle so nothing really moves during recoil, allowing me to see my own impacts, generally 200 yards and out. Maybe I just don't have good form shooting from the bench but I know I shoot like crap that way and don't like it, not as fast for folow up shots.

If you do shoot prone, the best way to make sure you are doing it properly is the follow this video, it shows it perfectly. u8rkt1HRWdo

Martan
10-30-2010, 9:35 PM
First and foremost check out CAPRC.com and ask this question there.

You need match ammo in order to get nice tight groups. Gun show surplus ammo is **** compared to match ammo. Hand loads is what you want to do, buy reloading equipment and learn how to use it. If your serious about shooting bolt action rifles if not you need to pony up and buy some match ammo black hills is good. A rear bag would definitely help you out. (link below). as far as magnification 10x is good to 1,000 yards + you should be fine at 16x. As for your groups better ammo would help alot also practice your breathing and trigger control. Xmark trigger is **** I tossed mine and got a timney trigger from midwayusa.com it is awesome.

link to rear bags(I use the tab rear bag and like it alot)
http://www.triadtactical.com/Bean-Bags-Shooting-Rests/

Check out caprc.com (check out the second link in my sig)

Thank you !, This is all good advice. I'm a little confused with the scope magnification, these groups were all shot with max. of my scope, which is 16x and I thought I need more. I can't imagine shooting somewhat tight groups with 10x at 1000 yds. What do you normally use for 100 yards?

I'll definitely buy a rear bag, thanks for the links.
As far as reloading, I gave it a lot of thought, if I lived in the house and had a nice size garage, I wouldn't think twice, but I'm in a townhouse with one small car garage and I'm not sure I want to reload and play with gunpowder in the bedroom or a living room. I'm not even sure how much space you need for that, I'll have to read more on reloading.

I also went through some threads dedicated to triggers and many people prefer jewell over timney, so you like your timney a lot? It's surely less expansive than jewell.

Martan
10-30-2010, 9:45 PM
I would suggest zeroing the rifle set up exactly the way you plan on doing most of your shooting. If you plan on doing most of it from the prone then all you need is the bipod and a rear bag or a thick glove for your support hand (heavy leather or something similar) this will keep your hand from getting sore and fatigued and will prevent your pulse from entering into the rifle. I was battling that myself today as I forgot my rear bag at home.

If those are all your rounds and you didn't throw any off of the targets then I would say everything should be nice and snug, but it doesn't hurt to go thru and make sure all bolts and screws and nice and tight.

I also find shooting from the prone to be much easier as you get your entire body behind the rifle so nothing really moves during recoil, allowing me to see my own impacts, generally 200 yards and out. Maybe I just don't have good form shooting from the bench but I know I shoot like crap that way and don't like it, not as fast for folow up shots.

If you do shoot prone, the best way to make sure you are doing it properly is the follow this video, it shows it perfectly.

I was shooting sitting from the bench and I'm not sure I like it too much. I'd like to try prone next time with the rear bag. The video is good, the guy had a perfect 5 round group there, nice.
I'll work on the breathing, thanks for your help.

oni
10-30-2010, 9:46 PM
You can't go wrong with a Timney or Jewell. I own a Timney and its awesome.

I can't comment on a Jewell as I have never shot one.

I have my reloading setup in my bedroom. See picture

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_U1yhk2pqKxM/TCWRlx7m3VI/AAAAAAAADG0/qIGMNZ_fNQw/s1280/IMG_0001.JPG

Juice5610
10-30-2010, 10:08 PM
I now use 15x at 100 sometimes I use 22x but I used 10x for everything for a good while. As far as the trigger goes the timney is rock solid I've never had a problem with mine but have personally seen 2 jewels give the owners trouble at the range. They just seem a bit more finicky.


The best advice I can give you would be to go to this at Angeles shooting range you will have to sign up at CAPRC in order to rsvp. Keep your eye out about a week before Jan 23rd so you can claim your spot for the course of fire. They fill up pretty fast.

Sunday, Jan 23rd Course of Fire "A" New Precision Rifle Shooter Introduction
(http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38)

Go with 100 rounds of this
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-308-Rem-175gr-MATCH.html

and ask as many questions as you possibly can. Also go on youtube and start looking at videos for reloading ammunition. Then buy this and read it 2 or 3 times
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/49th-edition.php

Juice5610
10-30-2010, 10:10 PM
Watch some of these

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reloading+match+ammo&aq=0

Martan
10-30-2010, 10:22 PM
You can't go wrong with a Timney or Jewell. I own a Timney and its awesome.

I can't comment on a Jewell as I have never shot one.

I have my reloading setup in my bedroom. See picture


You know what? That's not bad at all, I thought it would more space demanding and "messy" as well, but if this is what it takes, I might really go for it, THANK YOU.
This is why I like this forum.

Martan
10-30-2010, 10:29 PM
I now use 15x at 100 sometimes I use 22x but I used 10x for everything for a good while. As far as the trigger goes the timney is rock solid I've never had a problem with mine but have personally seen 2 jewels give the owners trouble at the range. They just seem a bit more finicky.


The best advice I can give you would be to go to this at Angeles shooting range you will have to sign up at CAPRC in order to rsvp. Keep your eye out about a week before Jan 23rd so you can claim your spot for the course of fire. They fill up pretty fast.

Sunday, Jan 23rd Course of Fire "A" New Precision Rifle Shooter Introduction
(http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38)

Go with 100 rounds of this
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-308-Rem-175gr-MATCH.html

and ask as many questions as you possibly can. Also go on youtube and start looking at videos for reloading ammunition. Then buy this and read it 2 or 3 times
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/49th-edition.php

That's a very nice range, I'd love to go there, but I'm in Bay Area and on top of it we have a new 3 weeks old baby on our hands, so I'm a little busy these days :sleeping: . One day.....

I'll do more research on triggers and looks like the upgrade would help. Less money for diapers, I'll have to potty train him soon :-))

As far as reloading, what brand and press would you recommend? RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit seems like a good choice, what do you think?

Juice5610
10-30-2010, 10:44 PM
MANY love and swear by their RCBS rock chucker. I love and swear by my Redding Big boss II. Here's my set up. I built the bench myself in my spare bedroom.

http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Juice5610/2010-10-01_23-15-21_460.jpg

http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Juice5610/2010-10-20_18-02-43_514.jpg

crappy pics I know lol

rero360
10-30-2010, 10:54 PM
I have the same bench, only mine appears to be slightly wider and I don't have to peg board in the back, they're probably within inches of each other spec wise. I got a RockChucker mounted on mine.

Martan
10-30-2010, 11:04 PM
MANY love and swear by their RCBS rock chucker. I love and swear by my Redding Big boss II. Here's my set up. I built the bench myself in my spare bedroom.


crappy pics I know lol

You're right, really crappy pictures :D , but really good advices, I'll let it slide this time , lol. Good job on the bench.
Well, I have $400 worth of gift cards in Cabellas, I thought I would use them on range-finder, but I might just go for a reloading equipment. Decisions decisions....

X-NewYawker
10-30-2010, 11:09 PM
Also, invest in a sandbag or a actual benchrest and a small rear sandbag that is loosely filled. -- wring out and set up your rifle using steadiest support -- before going to bipod which always opens the groups up:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/_MG_9211.jpg

You have to know how well you rifle shoots a particular bullet with as many variables as possible eliminated -- this is "base accuracy" of the gun -- and then you can start adding variable -- offhand, bipod, etc...

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/P1000671.jpg

Juice5610
10-30-2010, 11:11 PM
Unless your shooting in blm land or hunting range finders are a wast in my honest opinion because most if not all ranges have known target ranges or if you know how you can range using your reticle and some simple math. Check out the reloading youtube vids and get the lyman handbook. Make yourself some ammo and go practice practice practice!

IsaacGlass
10-30-2010, 11:19 PM
That's a very nice range, I'd love to go there, but I'm in Bay Area and on top of it we have a new 3 weeks old baby on our hands, so I'm a little busy these days :sleeping: . One day.....

I'll do more research on triggers and looks like the upgrade would help. Less money for diapers, I'll have to potty train him soon :-))

As far as reloading, what brand and press would you recommend? RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit seems like a good choice, what do you think?

Which Bay Area range do you shoot at?

Nov Cow Palace Gun Show, pickup some AE 168gr OTM @ $15.99 box. They are accurate out to 300yds. But within 100yds they can shoot sub moa :D
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/feda76251m1a.jpg

Martan
10-30-2010, 11:37 PM
Which Bay Area range do you shoot at?

Nov Cow Palace Gun Show, pickup some AE 168gr OTM @ $15.99 box. They are accurate out to 300yds. But within 100yds they can shoot sub moa :D
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/feda76251m1a.jpg

I shoot in Livermore where I shoot trap as well , but Chabot range is not far either, I'm in San Ramon, so either way, not too far.
Thanks for the tip on ammo, I'll try it.

IsaacGlass
10-30-2010, 11:46 PM
I shoot in Livermore where I shoot trap as well , but Chabot range is not far either, I'm in San Ramon, so either way, not too far.
Thanks for the tip on ammo, I'll try it.

I sometimes headed out to Chabot on Friday mornings, this is the only time they open up the 200 yds section to the public. Check it out sometimes.

Martan
10-31-2010, 1:14 AM
I sometimes headed out to Chabot on Friday mornings, this is the only time they open up the 200 yds section to the public. Check it out sometimes.

Time to check it out, I've never been to other range around here, always use Livermore.

Pryde
10-31-2010, 2:20 AM
OK,
First off, there's no need to listen to all the BS about needing a bag (use a sock filled with rice if you have to), better trigger, spending more money whatever. It is your ammo. You are not going to shoot tiny groups with surplus 147gr ammo. Period. Even with the best surplus ammo, I can not shoot anything tighter than an inch and a half out of my factory Accuracy International gun. Using handloads I can stack a 10 shot group into a hole the size of a dime. If you wanna maximize your accuracy potential you're gonna need to either start reloading or start buying $1.50 a round match ammo.

Plenty of people out there can shoot lights out using a stock SPS with match quality ammunition with a stock trigger. They just aren't doing it with surplus/gunshow ammo.

ETA: For the guys with the reloading setups, FYI it's not exactly a great idea to tumble your brass indoors. Get a lead test kit at Home Depot and swab your work area around your tumbler, you'd be surprised what you find.

Air
10-31-2010, 7:48 AM
OK,
First off, there's no need to listen to all the BS about needing a bag (use a sock filled with rice if you have to), better trigger, spending more money whatever. It is your ammo. You are not going to shoot tiny groups with surplus 147gr ammo. Period. Even with the best surplus ammo, I can not shoot anything tighter than an inch and a half out of my factory Accuracy International gun. Using handloads I can stack a 10 shot group into a hole the size of a dime. If you wanna maximize your accuracy potential you're gonna need to either start reloading or start buying $1.50 a round match ammo.

Plenty of people out there can shoot lights out using a stock SPS with match quality ammunition with a stock trigger. They just aren't doing it with surplus/gunshow ammo.

ETA: For the guys with the reloading setups, FYI it's not exactly a great idea to tumble your brass indoors. Get a lead test kit at Home Depot and swab your work area around your tumbler, you'd be surprised what you find.

Yup.

Juice5610
10-31-2010, 9:28 AM
OK,
First off, there's no need to listen to all the BS about needing a bag (use a sock filled with rice if you have to)

ETA: For the guys with the reloading setups, FYI it's not exactly a great idea to tumble your brass indoors. Get a lead test kit at Home Depot and swab your work area around your tumbler, you'd be surprised what you find.


#1 If you cant spare 20 bucks for a rear bag you have the wrong hobby. (not a personal attack don't get all calguns on me)

#2 your making assumptions ;)

rero360
10-31-2010, 11:11 AM
One alternitive that will allow you to tumble indoors without the worry of lead dust contamination is use a rotary tumber with warm soapy water and stainless steel media. There is a huge 30+ page thread on SH about it, 4 hours of tumbling with the above, and the results are like factory new brass, inside and out including the primer pockets, I plan on switching to that set-up soon.

The basics is, its been discovered that 4 to 5 pounds of the media, one gallon of water, a 9mm case worth of lemon shine, and a 44mag case worth of liquid detergent and 4 hours of tumbling will result in getting 3 to 4 pounds of brass completely spotless. You just need to build a drying rack for them when you pull them out.

The problem with rice in a sock is that the rice will retain moisture and rot, as well as draw insects. Sand also will retain moisture, leading to a heavy rear bag and mildew. Any sort of hard plastic pellets, like the kind they use for injection molding, would work great, or something along those lines. Like everything else though, you can get extremely creative with the rear bag or just buy an already made one, both are fine, just keep in mind what sort of environment it may be exposed to and what effects those elements may have on the bag.

X-NewYawker
10-31-2010, 11:56 AM
Yeah. The rear bag is your elevation control. A bag NOT filled to the brim, you can squeeze it with your off hand to raise or lower the rear of the rifle -- it's great when you have that bipod in front --

Pryde
10-31-2010, 12:53 PM
#1 If you cant spare 20 bucks for a rear bag you have the wrong hobby. (not a personal attack don't get all calguns on me)

#2 your making assumptions ;)

#1 I was kind of half-kidding, the point is that the ammo is the culprit.

Juice5610
10-31-2010, 1:31 PM
#1 I was kind of half-kidding, the point is that the ammo is the culprit.

agreed

Martan
10-31-2010, 1:40 PM
agreed

Well, if it's the ammo as you all say, I'm not that bad for the very first time, with cheap ammo and from the shoulder :D
I know I know, there is a lot more to it than that....
I ordered the rear bag and also reloading equipment. I went for RCBS Supreme master kit, Cabelas has a discount , $289.99 for the whole kit, I think it's a great price and reviews are excellent.

Juice5610
10-31-2010, 3:34 PM
get a rcbs charge master TRUST ME!

Martan
10-31-2010, 3:48 PM
get a rcbs charge master TRUST ME!

Dispenser or Scale ? Or, there is a combo as well.
It costs some money, but down the road I might, I'll start with the kit and see how it goes. Is case tumbler a good thing? Frankford Arsenal makes one you can get for little over $50.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/frankford-arsenal-quick-n-ez-case-tumbler.html

Jonathan Doe
10-31-2010, 3:49 PM
I don't do cheap ammo for practice and good ammo for defense/ tactical things. My rifles only shoot Federal or Lake City match ammo or my match reloads only. Once I find out which load my rifle shoots the best, I usually stck to that load. When I find out which factory match ammo shoots the best, I usually buy several cases at a time. I won't have to worry about ammo then.

rero360
10-31-2010, 4:01 PM
Dispenser or Scale ? Or, there is a combo as well.
It costs some money, but down the road I might, I'll start with the kit and see how it goes. Is case tumbler a good thing? Frankford Arsenal makes one you can get for little over $50.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/frankford-arsenal-quick-n-ez-case-tumbler.html

I have the cabela's vibratory tumbler, been using it for a few years but I've decided to go the rotory tumbler with the stainless steel media route. $178 buck for the Thumbler tumbler model B and it should be around $50 for the 5 pounds of media that is needed.

here is the thread I was talking about regarding this set up http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1513345&nt=21&page=1

going that route does have a higher initial expense but it should save money in the long run. Plus any lead dust on the brass will be put into solution with the water and poured down the drain instead of becoming airborne with the dry media dust with vibratory tumblers.

Juice5610
10-31-2010, 4:37 PM
Dispenser or Scale ? Or, there is a combo as well.
It costs some money, but down the road I might, I'll start with the kit and see how it goes. Is case tumbler a good thing? Frankford Arsenal makes one you can get for little over $50.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/frankford-arsenal-quick-n-ez-case-tumbler.html

The combo. Yes a case tumbler is a good thing. Here's the kit

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=414369

Martan
10-31-2010, 9:16 PM
The combo. Yes a case tumbler is a good thing. Here's the kit

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=414369

One more question I have. This thread turned into a reloading debate, but one last thing. When I was shooting yesterday, I saved all the brass from the 147 gr. Winchester ammo I bought at gun show. The box was labeled NEW, so I assume those were not reloads, the price was also little higher than reloads.
The question is, can I save that brass and reload it with new 168gr. bullets and powder?

phish
10-31-2010, 9:22 PM
Winchester brass is good stuff, hang onto it.

AlliedArmory
10-31-2010, 9:26 PM
I would say get a rear bag and try it out with some match ammo.

My R700 was able to do 0.65" my 1st time out with FGMM at 100 yrds and I am a very novice bolt shooter. This is with a 10x scope too.

When I use regular 150gr my groups range from 0.75" to 3".

Federal GMM 168gr can be found for about $20 a box. Best value for match ammo if you do not reload it yourself.


And to answer your question, hang on to your brass.

Martan
10-31-2010, 9:33 PM
Great, thanks everybody, the sky is clearing... great help.

G-forceJunkie
10-31-2010, 11:01 PM
Just an FYI, I like to use a white gym sock filled about a fist size of pea 3/16" pea gravel and the end tied in a knot. Heavier than plastic pellets, won't hold moisture like sand or rice. Try a fish store, they have all sorts of gravel for fishtanks. Fancy colors are optional.