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Shiboleth
10-30-2010, 4:59 PM
What are the laws regarding the loaning of a legally owned handgun to a non-prohibited person for a short-term basis, say a month or so?

Thanks for any info.

rromeo
10-30-2010, 5:06 PM
A month is okay, "or so" isn't.

AK4me
10-30-2010, 5:08 PM
yea, 30 days.

lorax3
10-30-2010, 5:25 PM
The person you are loaning the handgun too must have an HSC unless you stay in the immediate vicinity the whole time.

See CalGuns Wiki on "Loaning Firearms (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Loaning_Questions)" for more details.

paul0660
10-30-2010, 5:51 PM
HSC, no more than 30 days, has to be a person known to you, and there is no requirement for the transfer to be face to face.

BayAreaShooter
10-30-2010, 8:02 PM
It seems you all got it covered pretty well.

M14 Junkie
10-30-2010, 8:20 PM
Here's a curve ball question to add to the mix; you are legally separated from your wife, still legally married, and live in separate residences.

You are on title to both houses, you keep most of your guns with you where you live, but you leave one of your guns at the house your wife lives in, which you are on title.

Any problems with that? As I see it, it's just owning multiple residences and storing guns at both of them. Does your wife have to have a HSC?

wellerjohn
10-31-2010, 4:38 AM
Here's a curve ball question to add to the mix; you are legally separated from your wife, still legally married, and live in separate residences.

You are on title to both houses, you keep most of your guns with you where you live, but you leave one of your guns at the house your wife lives in, which you are on title.

Any problems with that? As I see it, it's just owning multiple residences and storing guns at both of them. Does your wife have to have a HSC?

The guns are community property and are owned by both of you, as long as she's not prohibited it should not be a problem.

M14 Junkie
10-31-2010, 10:06 AM
The guns are community property and are owned by both of you, as long as she's not prohibited it should not be a problem.

Thank you for your answer however, I am not sure that community property laws apply when you have a legal separation.

With that instrument, you are still technically married and neither party can re-marry without first obtaining a divorce.

But it separates financial responsibilty to each other and property.

The guns were not addressed in the legal separation and we have kept our properties in the name of our family trust so that in the event of our deaths, there is no probate or other such nonsense for our children OR each other to deal with.

My thinking is that since the property she lives in is STILL in my name also, that there should be no problem with permanently leaving one or more of my guns there for her to defend herself if neccessary. Even though I make my residence somewhere else.

Am I correct in assuming this?

She is NOT a prohibited person. And does not have a HSC.

paul0660
10-31-2010, 10:11 AM
HSC's are required for transfers of handguns (which includes loans). It doesn't sound to me like a transfer has taken place.

CSACANNONEER
10-31-2010, 10:24 AM
She is NOT a prohibited person. And does not have a HSC.

She doesn't need a HSC card if it's already her gun.

Peter.Steele
10-31-2010, 11:25 AM
Thank you for your answer however, I am not sure that community property laws apply when you have a legal separation.

With that instrument, you are still technically married and neither party can re-marry without first obtaining a divorce.

But it separates financial responsibilty to each other and property.

The guns were not addressed in the legal separation and we have kept our properties in the name of our family trust so that in the event of our deaths, there is no probate or other such nonsense for our children OR each other to deal with.

My thinking is that since the property she lives in is STILL in my name also, that there should be no problem with permanently leaving one or more of my guns there for her to defend herself if neccessary. Even though I make my residence somewhere else.

Am I correct in assuming this?

She is NOT a prohibited person. And does not have a HSC.




Legal separation doesn't really work that way in California. You can't go to a judge and say 'okay, we want to have a legal separation.'

Legal separation will generally not come into play until / unless an action has been filed for a dissolution. At that point, the accumulation of community property, etc., will end, and the two parties are essentially going to be considered separated by the judge. There will be a specific date assigned to the separation by the judge. That date will be based on what the judge finds to be 'clear and convincing evidence' of when the two parties separated with the intent to not get back together. (Note: this different from 'separated without an intent to get back together.')

There's some pretty substantial case law on this issue. I've been doing some research on this one - I'm volunteering for a friend in the public defender's office in my county, one of his cases is dealing with a community property issue.

GWbiker
10-31-2010, 11:49 AM
What are the laws regarding the loaning of a legally owned handgun to a non-prohibited person for a short-term basis, say a month or so?

Thanks for any info.

My opinion - NEVER loan out a gun, short term or long term to anyone. A firearm is not a video game, CD, laptop computer, etc... If your gun is misused by another person and someone gets injured, the authorities plus a gang of Lawyers will look for you.

paul0660
10-31-2010, 12:07 PM
the authorities plus a gang of Lawyers will look for you.

And if you followed the rules, nothing happens.

CSACANNONEER
10-31-2010, 12:12 PM
My opinion - NEVER loan out a gun, short term or long term to anyone. A firearm is not a video game, CD, laptop computer, etc... If your gun is misused by another person and someone gets injured, the authorities plus a gang of Lawyers will look for you.

I'd never loan a laptop to anyone. They might use it in a crime. OMG, how about loaning a bicycle or skate board to someone who uses it as a get-away vehicle. If you loan skis to someone, they might break a leg. If you can't trust someone, don't loan them anything. If you don't feel comfortable loaning someone your chainsaw and chipper at 2am, don't do it. If you don't want to loan your firearms, don't. But, you really need to take off your TFH and feel the wind in your hair once in a while.

M14 Junkie
10-31-2010, 1:04 PM
Legal separation doesn't really work that way in California. You can't go to a judge and say 'okay, we want to have a legal separation.'

Legal separation will generally not come into play until / unless an action has been filed for a dissolution. At that point, the accumulation of community property, etc., will end, and the two parties are essentially going to be considered separated by the judge. There will be a specific date assigned to the separation by the judge. That date will be based on what the judge finds to be 'clear and convincing evidence' of when the two parties separated with the intent to not get back together. (Note: this different from 'separated without an intent to get back together.')

There's some pretty substantial case law on this issue. I've been doing some research on this one - I'm volunteering for a friend in the public defender's office in my county, one of his cases is dealing with a community property issue.

Again, thanks to all attempting to answer my question but, Peter Steele, your missing my point entirely and kinda going off on a tangent that does not address the question I asked at all...

I HAVE a legal separation for some 6 years now. However, in the case of residential property, EVEN IF it is named as going to one party or the other IN the instrument- you both STILL OWN IT AND ARE LEGALLY ON TITLE TO IT UNTIL ONE OR THE OTHER FILES A QUITCLAIM TO SAID PROPERTY. My legally separated wife CANNOT take a second mortgage out, refinance the house, or sell it, without my signature, and neither can I.

FURTHERMORE; you can still LEGALLY file joint tax returns (or not) being legally separated if you want to.

MY question is only, since I am legally on title to the property that my wife lives in, and STILL TECHNICALLY MARRIED IN THIS STATE do the regulations pertaining to a "loaning of a firearm" pertain here? If I choose to store one or more of my guns there and she just happens to use it to legally defend herself in the home?

And regardless of what you have inferred about a legal separation, Peter Steele, YOU ARE STILL TECHNICALLY MARRIED IN THIS STATE EVEN WITH A LEGAL SEPARATION. AND WOULD BE IN VIOLATION OF STATE LAW SHOULD YOU MARRY AGAIN WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING A DISSOLUTION OF MARRIAGE (DIVORCE). THere is a HUGE difference between a divorce and a legal separation in California.

Mostly, it's a separation of finances & property thing. This is mine, that's yours, and if you go out and charge $90,000 on a credit card, it's your problem and not mine.

That much I know for sure.

Shiboleth
10-31-2010, 4:26 PM
HSC, no more than 30 days, has to be a person known to you, and there is no requirement for the transfer to be face to face.

Thanks, I thought that was the case but I just wanted confirmation first. I wasn't sure whether the 30 days applied to family or just any loan.

Peter.Steele
10-31-2010, 4:27 PM
Again, thanks to all attempting to answer my question but, Peter Steele, your missing my point entirely and kinda going off on a tangent that does not address the question I asked at all...

I HAVE a legal separation for some 6 years now. However, in the case of residential property, EVEN IF it is named as going to one party or the other IN the instrument- you both STILL OWN IT AND ARE LEGALLY ON TITLE TO IT UNTIL ONE OR THE OTHER FILES A QUITCLAIM TO SAID PROPERTY. My legally separated wife CANNOT take a second mortgage out, refinance the house, or sell it, without my signature, and neither can I.

FURTHERMORE; you can still LEGALLY file joint tax returns (or not) being legally separated if you want to.

MY question is only, since I am legally on title to the property that my wife lives in, and STILL TECHNICALLY MARRIED IN THIS STATE do the regulations pertaining to a "loaning of a firearm" pertain here? If I choose to store one or more of my guns there and she just happens to use it to legally defend herself in the home?

And regardless of what you have inferred about a legal separation, Peter Steele, YOU ARE STILL TECHNICALLY MARRIED IN THIS STATE EVEN WITH A LEGAL SEPARATION. AND WOULD BE IN VIOLATION OF STATE LAW SHOULD YOU MARRY AGAIN WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING A DISSOLUTION OF MARRIAGE (DIVORCE). THere is a HUGE difference between a divorce and a legal separation in California.

Mostly, it's a separation of finances & property thing. This is mine, that's yours, and if you go out and charge $90,000 on a credit card, it's your problem and not mine.

That much I know for sure.


First off, I really wasn't specifically addressing your questions. I was responding more or less to someone else. The information is still applicable, however.

California does not do legal separation, as such. Until you file a dissolution action, community property rules presumptively apply. Once the dissolution action is in progress, the judge will determine the actual date of separation based on the preponderance of the evidence concerning when the marriage was irrevocably broken, and when the couple made the decision to split up.

So, I guess the point is that until the filing for dissolution there is a presumption of community property, therefore it's not lending or borrowing. It's an asset that is jointly owned between the two of you, so long as it was acquired during the marriage. She owns it just as much as you do.

The taxes and remarriage thing are irrelevant here. What matters is the community property issue. The case law is pretty well settled. Also, please don't think that a quitclaim is going to mean a damn thing. You could have one signed by her and notarized by Jesus, the pope and the president and it won't mean anything.

Shiboleth
10-31-2010, 4:33 PM
My opinion - NEVER loan out a gun, short term or long term to anyone. A firearm is not a video game, CD, laptop computer, etc... If your gun is misused by another person and someone gets injured, the authorities plus a gang of Lawyers will look for you.

Well I'm the one the gun is being loaned to, and I'm quite responsible. Besides which, I don't see how someone lawfully loaning a gun, or anything for that manner, to someone assumes liability for it's criminal misuse. But IANAL so I could be wrong.

Open Carry Jack
10-31-2010, 5:53 PM
What about holding a gun for someone? A friend of mine is moving to another state where handgun permits are required, and she asked me to hold her pistol until she can go through the application process. I will be keeping it in my gun safe. I'm not sure how long I will have it.

GrizzlyGuy
10-31-2010, 6:21 PM
What about holding a gun for someone? A friend of mine is moving to another state where handgun permits are required, and she asked me to hold her pistol until she can go through the application process. I will be keeping it in my gun safe. I'm not sure how long I will have it.

Welcome to Calguns. In this case she would be loaning the handgun to you. You need to have a handgun safety certificate and the duration of the loan is limited to 30 days. See here:

Can I loan a handgun to an adult who has a Handgun Safety Certificate? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_loan_a_handgun_to_an_adult_who_has_a_Han dgun_Safety_Certificate.3F)

KylaGWolf
10-31-2010, 6:22 PM
Open Carry Jack you need an HSC and then have them put it in a lock box that you don't have the key to then you don't have access to the gun therefore the the 30 rule would not apply.

M14 Junkie
10-31-2010, 6:45 PM
[QUOTE]California does not do legal separation, as such.
I'd really like to understand precisely WTH you mean by that.
Are you saying that the document that I have, filed and recorded in a County of California Superior Court, Family Law Division, that has a box checked next to "Judgement; Legal Separation" and with a case# assigned to it, is what? A made up document?
Also, please don't think that a quitclaim is going to mean a damn thing. You could have one signed by her and notarized by Jesus, the pope and the president and it won't mean anything.
Again, what do you mean by this? If you go ahead and file the signed & notarized Quitclaim Deed with the County, it better damn well mean something. If you don't FILE the notarized document, THEN it really doesn't mean anything.

GWbiker
10-31-2010, 7:11 PM
Well I'm the one the gun is being loaned to, and I'm quite responsible. Besides which, I don't see how someone lawfully loaning a gun, or anything for that manner, to someone assumes liability for it's criminal misuse. But IANAL so I could be wrong.

Of course you're a responsible person - you just told me that but even if you were my next door neighbor in Tucson Arizona, I still would not loan to you one of my firearms. Use of my gun inside a shooting range in my presence is another matter.

I worked in law enforcement for 20 years but what the hell do I know.

You people have no idea of the social and legal responsibilities that come with owning a firearm. NOW I know why you guys are always getting new gun laws shoved up your a**.

Shiboleth
10-31-2010, 9:05 PM
Of course you're a responsible person - you just told me that but even if you were my next door neighbor in Tucson Arizona, I still would not loan to you one of my firearms. Use of my gun inside a shooting range in my presence is another matter.

I worked in law enforcement for 20 years but what the hell do I know.

You people have no idea of the social and legal responsibilities that come with owning a firearm. NOW I know why you guys are always getting new gun laws shoved up your a**.

Wow, good to see you know everything there is to know about "us people" from a couple internet posts. Do tell, what legal responsibilities are we unaware of?

Peter.Steele
10-31-2010, 9:13 PM
I'd really like to understand precisely WTH you mean by that.
Are you saying that the document that I have, filed and recorded in a County of California Superior Court, Family Law Division, that has a box checked next to "Judgement; Legal Separation" and with a case# assigned to it, is what? A made up document?

Separation doesn't necessarily quite work the same way in California that it does in some other places. The intent behind the concept in CA appears to be primarily for the purpose of dividing property, stopping the accumulation of community assets, and the establishment of separate maintenance, generally in preparation for or as part of a larger action for dissolution. So, yes, there is the concept of legal separation, but it seems to be, in general, a part of a larger action.

In some other states, it's not necessarily a preliminary to or part of a divorce.




Again, what do you mean by this? If you go ahead and file the signed & notarized Quitclaim Deed with the County, it better damn well mean something. If you don't FILE the notarized document, THEN it really doesn't mean anything.

A quitclaim is utterly meaningless between spouses, or between business partners, absent the demonstration of some specific and satisfactory compensation. (Of course, the point of a quitclaim generally is that it's not a sale ... it's the 'quitting' of a 'claim' to something.)

Evidence Code 662 is overcome by Family Code 721(b), from which comes a requirement that spouses deal fairly with one another, and from which also comes a presumption of undue influence where one spouse receives a substantially greater benefit from an interspousal transaction. See In re Marriage of Haines, 33 Cal.App 4th 277.

M14 Junkie
10-31-2010, 9:49 PM
[QUOTE]Separation doesn't necessarily quite work the same way in California that it does in some other places. The intent behind the concept in CA appears to be primarily for the purpose of dividing property, stopping the accumulation of community assets, and the establishment of separate maintenance, generally in preparation for or as part of a larger action for dissolution. So, yes, there is the concept of legal separation, but it seems to be, in general, a part of a larger action.

Thank you, but that's the part that I knew. So, I can leave a gun with my wife which I bought before the separation, because even under the separation it's still considered community property, but not one that I bought after the separation?
A quitclaim is utterly meaningless between spouses, or between business partners, absent the demonstration of some specific and satisfactory compensation. (Of course, the point of a quitclaim generally is that it's not a sale ... it's the 'quitting' of a 'claim' to something.)

This would be the case even if said property was specifically named as being relinquished to one party from the other in the legal separation?

Peter.Steele
10-31-2010, 10:16 PM
Thank you, but that's the part that I knew. So, I can leave a gun with my wife which I bought before the separation, because even under the separation it's still considered community property, but not one that I bought after the separation?


I would say no, but that's not meant to be taken as legal advice. Once there's been a separation, then there has been a division of property already made. At this point, so far as I understand what you're telling me, since there's already an order of separation / order of separate maintenance, there is no longer any community property. Everything is either his or hers, including any pistols. It's either his separate property or her separate property, at this point.

Unless there's some details in your situation that I don't know about.


This would be the case even if said property was specifically named as being relinquished to one party from the other in the legal separation?


Was the quitclaim signed before the separation order or as a result of it?

In Haines a man owned the marital residence before they were married. At some point, for some reason, he added her name to it. Anyway, when their marriage went downhill, but before they filed for divorce, he got her to sign a quitclaim, returning sole title of the property to him. The trial court agreed with this - based on EC 662, title to property goes to whoever has their name on the paperwork, absent some damn good evidence why not.

On appeal, however, the quitclaim was thrown out, because of what I mentioned earlier. FC 721(b), fair dealings between spouses, etc.

Read the case.
(http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1542105409760829265&q=33+Cal.App+4th+277&hl=en&as_sdt=2002) It's worth taking the time to read, and goes into a lot of good detail on the history of community property and how it relates to California. It's written in a (relatively) jargon-neutral way, too.

M14 Junkie
10-31-2010, 11:27 PM
I signed the quitclaim after the separation was final but she never recorded it.

The property remains under both of our names under the title of the XX family trust, as so remain all of the real estate we acquired before the separation.

I was just asking that since the house she lives in is also in my name, jointly in the family trust, why could I not leave one or more of my guns there for her protection? Or rather to "store" a couple of them there, without having the 30 day limit and HSC requirement applying.

I mean you can legally keep weapons at any property that you own, right?

Provided of course, that nobody who is living there is a felon, or a 5150 case, or other prohibited type person.

CSACANNONEER
11-01-2010, 9:56 AM
Of course you're a responsible person - you just told me that but even if you were my next door neighbor in Tucson Arizona, I still would not loan to you one of my firearms. Use of my gun inside a shooting range in my presence is another matter.

I worked in law enforcement for 20 years but what the hell do I know.

You people have no idea of the social and legal responsibilities that come with owning a firearm. NOW I know why you guys are always getting new gun laws shoved up your a**.

So, since you worked in LE for a while, you must know everything to do with the laws of this country, right? That is one of the biggest problems with some LEOs. They think they always know what the hell they are talking about.

Anyway, I borrow and loan firearms with LEOs who have 30-40 years of service under their belt. I guess your 20 years of service make you smarter/more informed than them. Give me a break! BTW, I will again say that if one does not feel comfortable loaning anything, they should not do it. For you to imply that there is a different moral or social responsibility when one loans a firearm than when one loans a vehicle or something else that can cause injury, goes to show that you have the basic beliefs of an anti. I'm surprised anyone with your very elitist views on firearms has been allowed to live in AZ.