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X-NewYawker
10-30-2010, 4:27 PM
Just read a round up of Bullpup rifles in the new issue of TACTICAL WEAPONS (where I write, full disclosure, but did not write this piece) and it made my wonder:

Why wasn't the ACR or SCAR designed as a freaking bullpup?

I mean, if you're going to try to replace the current M-16 series, why make a very similar gun -- what about a gas piston BP?
It seems like every other country appreciates the portability, short length with full length barrel performance, etc. of a 5.56mm bull pup rifle. In fact, the handling of the M-4 that is taught to current soldiers would be more effective with a bull pup. Is this sort of the same thing as when the army wouldn't leap from the M-1 to the AR-10 and settled for an M-14? Are there just to many spare parts around? Too many traditionalists?
I think that a company like H&K could have developed a bullpup that used 70-80% of the internal parts of the AR rifles to make it worth switching =--

what do you guys think of a bullpup battle rifle for our boys?

Flogger23m
10-30-2010, 4:32 PM
Completely guessing here - maybe it will be easier to train our soldiers on a weapon that shares a similar control layout?

A lot of other countries are not going with bullpups. Germany, Spain, Norway and Russia come to mind.

For what it is worth, it seems like people in France seem to prefer the AR-15 over the FAMAS.

X-NewYawker
10-30-2010, 4:33 PM
Completely guessing here - maybe it will be easier to train our soldiers on a weapon that shares a similar control layout?

A lot of other countries are not going with bullpups. Germany, Spain, Norway and Russia come to mind.

For what it is worth, it seems like people in France seem to prefer the AR-15 over the FAMAS.

Just wondering -- who are this people in France and why would we care what they like?
:)

pyro3k2
10-30-2010, 4:34 PM
that is what we call a good idea, and last time I checked the military doesn't work on those infact consider yourself on report for even having this idea. LOL j/k.

The AUG has a very good rep.

ke6guj
10-30-2010, 4:36 PM
what about when you need to fire from the offside shoulder? Most bullpups you'd be eating brass or getting cut by a reciprocating bolt. So that means that you give up about half of your cover/concealment options since you couldnt switch over to the left shoulder so you could peek out to the left with a minimum of exposure.

bomb_on_bus
10-30-2010, 4:36 PM
ever try working on one?

Flogger23m
10-30-2010, 4:38 PM
Just wondering -- who are this people in France and why would we care what they like?
:)


Just people who own guns.

As for why to care, I guess it shows that people don't prefer ARs just due to patriotism considering they are from another country?

Like I said, I am just guessing here. :)

rromeo
10-30-2010, 4:42 PM
Just wondering -- who are this people in France and why would we care what they like?
:)

The M16 is capable of surviving getting dropped.

hitman13
10-30-2010, 4:43 PM
Bull pups generally suck for leftys and rightys having to shoot LH.

KCDS
10-30-2010, 4:51 PM
well when traditional designs have a kaboom, they blow off your fingers
when bullpups have a kaboom, they blow off your face

Boltz
10-30-2010, 4:53 PM
I've always wondered the same question too since I have always been fascinated with them. For the southpaw issue, you already have the Kel Tec RFB and FN F2000 that forward eject. The only thing I can think of is that mag changes are easier on a AR platform.

bob7122
10-30-2010, 4:55 PM
look at the p.90 the bullets drop down not to the side it is possible

sevensix2x51
10-30-2010, 4:57 PM
and how would you short stock a bullpup? :confused::willy_nilly:

theyre cool and all, but the standard rifle lends itself to a better trigger.

Fjold
10-30-2010, 4:59 PM
Bull pups generally suck for leftys and rightys having to shoot LH.

Fixed it.

Bhobbs
10-30-2010, 5:57 PM
look at the p.90 the bullets drop down not to the side it is possible

That's because the P90 uses a very small case(5.7x28 vs 5.56x45) and can be top fed. Even then it uses a mag that rotates the round into feeding position. For that to work with 5.56 the mag would hang over the side of the rifle. Unless you like rifles with no sights then you would have to side feed the 5.56 round into the rifle.

Droppin Deuces
10-30-2010, 6:17 PM
Doesn't the FN2000 "eject" out the front? That's 5.56x45.

sevensix2x51
10-30-2010, 6:19 PM
Doesn't the FN2000 "eject" out the front? That's 5.56x45.

no. i think it "poops" out the front, like the keltec.... :D

Droppin Deuces
10-30-2010, 6:21 PM
Poop indeed.

GeYKe_RyeUs

CSACANNONEER
10-30-2010, 6:21 PM
Just wondering -- who are this people in France and why would we care what they like?
:)

Don't we all like buying surplus rifles that have never been fired and only dropped once?

MrPlink
10-30-2010, 6:24 PM
Yep F2000 just drops shells out of the front.

I think the answer lies in mostly what's been posted.

shtr45acp
10-30-2010, 6:29 PM
had a chance to get an AUG back about 15yrs ago, and passed. I shouldnt have. Your idea just might float, for a while, but the real test would be the proving grounds of the military. Unfortunately, putting up all the gelder needed to get your concept to that point would be cost prohibitive. Add the bias already established for the BP design and the perverbial goose would be cooked before it was put in the oven. Piston driven modified AR15 idea is a good idea that may float, if given proper stocking and some respect for the lefties.

valleyrat
10-30-2010, 6:31 PM
X-NewYawker- Care to share the names of some of the articles you have written? Issues/dates would be helpful.

Peter.Steele
10-30-2010, 6:38 PM
Completely guessing here - maybe it will be easier to train our soldiers on a weapon that shares a similar control layout?

A lot of other countries are not going with bullpups. Germany, Spain, Norway and Russia come to mind.

For what it is worth, it seems like people in France seem to prefer the AR-15 over the FAMAS.



C'mon, dude. You know better than to bring France into it. It's like the inverse Godwin!

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/images/smilies/is2.gifhttp://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/images/smilies/is2.gifhttp://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/images/smilies/is2.gifhttp://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/images/smilies/is2.gifhttp://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/images/smilies/is2.gif




what about when you need to fire from the offside shoulder? Most bullpups you'd be eating brass or getting cut by a reciprocating bolt. So that means that you give up about half of your cover/concealment options since you couldnt switch over to the left shoulder so you could peek out to the left with a minimum of exposure.

This. I'm left handed. I can't shoot most bullpup rifles at all, unless they're configured in advance for a lefty. And if my rifle breaks on the battlefield and I need to pick up someone else's rifle to keep in the fight ... then I'm pretty well screwed, aren't I?

MrPlink
10-30-2010, 7:08 PM
This. I'm left handed. I can't shoot most bullpup rifles at all, unless they're configured in advance for a lefty. And if my rifle breaks on the battlefield and I need to pick up someone else's rifle to keep in the fight ... then I'm pretty well screwed, aren't I?

well I think the point made by bringing up modern FN bullpup designs is that they CAN be made naturally ambidextrous.

Peter.Steele
10-30-2010, 7:22 PM
well I think the point made by bringing up modern FN bullpup designs is that they CAN be made naturally ambidextrous.


At the expense of significant mechanical complexity.

You get one good blob of mud in that ejection port and then what happens?

Notblake
10-30-2010, 7:35 PM
It was explained well to me a while ago conversation went something like this.

Him: What is better about a bulpup?

me: overall legnth

him: and?

me: ummm

him: what is worse?

me: trigger pull, magazine position, General design restrictions including height over bore, charging handle placement, chamber to face proximity, weak side manipulation, accessory mounting real-estate and compatibility with existing systems, ease of maintenance, trigger pull again (it's a serious issue with most bullpups, its like trying to turn off a lightswitch from accross the room with a tape measure), and cost

Him: see why they arent more popular

me: makes sense...



the bottom line is: if overall legnth is of UTMOST imporatance bullpup is the way to go, however, roles that call for 10" barreled guns don't typically need to have the capabilities of a 20" gun, and vise versa.

sleepur606
10-30-2010, 8:29 PM
Poop indeed.

GeYKe_RyeUs

This looks like it could be very easily prone to getting clogged with shtuff during a firefight in muddy/boggy conditions. I don't want my gun jamming because there's not a direct outlet for the cartridge cases.

Also, in a situation such as the above F2000, there's not a real possibility for the advantages of an open bolt rifle. Not that it's important, but it's a nice option/addition.

X-NewYawker
10-30-2010, 9:34 PM
I lived in France awhile and private ownership of assault style rifles ( as Flogger said) was not big on any French citizen's list I met while there. In fact, except for the men who patrolled fields for vermin with SxS Shotguns, I didn't see one privately owned firearm while I was there.

Peter.Steele
10-30-2010, 9:45 PM
I lived in France awhile and private ownership of assault style rifles ( as Flogger said) was not big on any French citizen's list I met while there. In fact, except for the men who patrolled fields for vermin with SxS Shotguns, I didn't see one privately owned firearm while I was there.

I've got a British friend who lives in Kent. Not sure what his procedure was, but he owns several M16 / M4 type weapons, which are kept in France. I believe they're stored at a club there, but not positive.

X-NewYawker
10-30-2010, 9:48 PM
Not in his HOUSE in England, that's for sure!

I agree with the criticisms of many BPS (I loved my AUG because it was so cool but I was always terrified my hands were so close to the muzzle) The point is, many countries went to a bullpup, have accommodations for leftys, etc., and it seems odd that the attempt to make all new assault rifle for the army consists of two slight modifications to a gas piston AR.

Djskrilla89
10-30-2010, 10:19 PM
well when traditional designs have a kaboom, they blow off your fingers
when bullpups have a kaboom, they blow off your face

Most Bullpups have a massive bolt carrier and trunnion so that doesn't happen.
I know the AUG hasn't had any reported face meltings in the last 35 years or so.

It was explained well to me a while ago conversation went something like this.

Him: What is better about a bulpup?

me: overall legnth

him: and?

me: ummm

him: what is worse?

me: trigger pull, magazine position, General design restrictions including height over bore, charging handle placement, chamber to face proximity, weak side manipulation, accessory mounting real-estate and compatibility with existing systems, ease of maintenance, trigger pull again (it's a serious issue with most bullpups, its like trying to turn off a lightswitch from accross the room with a tape measure), and cost

Him: see why they arent more popular

me: makes sense...

Training, training, training, training, training, training. You can't switch from an M4 and go straight to a bullpup thinking everything you've learned will translate over. I guarantee that follow-up shots are way easier, due to how the weight is distributed.

I do agree with the trigger (MSAR), but I bought a metal plate that removes the plastic on plastic friction in the trigger pack making it way better.

I know we could make a great Bullpup design. Of course that means money, training(lots of training), new contracts, did I say money? ..Especially these days with our ever dwindling budget. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I'm not Biased or defending bullups in general. I shoot my buddie's M4, I qual twice a year with the M16, and I own a MSAR. My MSAR is SO COMFORTABLE.

huckberry668
10-30-2010, 10:23 PM
Just read a round up of Bullpup rifles in the new issue of TACTICAL WEAPONS (where I write, full disclosure, but did not write this piece) and it made my wonder:

Why wasn't the ACR or SCAR designed as a freaking bullpup?

what do you guys think of a bullpup battle rifle for our boys?

Ergonomics. I'm sure the smaller size would be of benefit in some applications. Personally, I haven't seen a bullpup with a good gun-smithable trigger or allows you to change magazine fast. Think how you'd change a mag on an AR (non-bullet-button-bull-crap-CA AR)without taking your shooting hand off the grip.

Djskrilla89
10-30-2010, 10:34 PM
Mag change with the Aug/Msar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBbJhv39IUM

huckberry668
10-30-2010, 10:40 PM
Mag change with the Aug/Msar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBbJhv39IUM

that's pretty good and fast. However it still requires mag change in 2 separate steps instead of 1 with AR.

Djskrilla89
10-30-2010, 10:58 PM
that's pretty good and fast. However it still requires mag change in 2 separate steps instead of 1 with AR.

Austria doesn't like having their mags drop free for some reason.

If only we made our own Bullpup.. :tt1:

Gallows
10-30-2010, 11:15 PM
Never handled a Bullpup but I would really like to. For some reason it looks like it would be awkward to handle, obviously I'm not talking from experience. Hahaha.

PEBKAC
10-31-2010, 12:45 AM
Reaction side/southpaws shooting bullpups seems it could be a problem.

Though honestly the bit that worries me most is the trigger.

Though I would guess in both cases with sufficient "engineering around the problem" ala Porsche (engineering around the fact the engine is in a terrible place for decades eventually yielding a pretty great car) you could eventually end up with a half decent gun.

That said there is something about a 20 inch barrel in a comparatively tiny gun that just feels good man. And I still want a FAMAS. ;)

This is all largely speculation on my part though, having never fired a bullpup or driven a Porsche, but rather simply listening to those who have.

Cuda440
10-31-2010, 10:29 AM
I think that a company like H&K could have developed a bullpup that used 70-80% of the internal parts of the AR rifles to make it worth switching

You probably couldn't use many AR parts in a bullpup rifle, the entire FCG would need to be redesigned for the relocated trigger and safety selector, and the AR bcg requires a buffer and tube behind it to function, so you would'nt be able to save any length.

sd1023x
10-31-2010, 11:00 AM
Just wondering -- who are this people in France and why would we care what they like?
:)

If you read the september issue of Small Arms Review, it seems the French Army is in the process of trying to find a replacement for the FAMAS G1.

FAMAS G1 has its fair share of problems, barrel only shoots 55gr, and really only digests a proprietary steel case ammunition reliably. The G2 can shoot SS109, but only the French Navy for some reason rock those. They are currently looking for a replacement that take AR magazines, HK 416, Sig 556, can't remember if F2000 is in the running.

Going on, the troubled history of the SA80 is pretty well known, but not sure if the SA80 was well made to begin with, would it have had all the problems?

The Steyr Aug, everything I've heard about this weapon (mostly from Australia) that it is a great battle rifle. Decent accuracy, reliable, but one thing, the ergos leave a little bit to be desired and it probably would be a radical departure for the US military to adopt and retrain en masse.

FN F2000, probably the best of the new generation of BPs, but the price is high, and would like to see more battlefield data on how it holds up.

Fjold
10-31-2010, 11:13 AM
This looks like it could be very easily prone to getting clogged with shtuff during a firefight in muddy/boggy conditions. I don't want my gun jamming because there's not a direct outlet for the cartridge cases.

Also, in a situation such as the above F2000, there's not a real possibility for the advantages of an open bolt rifle. Not that it's important, but it's a nice option/addition.

And if you are shooting up (from the ground to a third floor window for example) it looks like the ejection port could possibly clog.