PDA

View Full Version : My CCW Application Experience


skroeker
10-30-2010, 9:48 AM
Hello, My name is SaraMae. I'm new to CalGuns. I wanted to share my experience in applying for my CCW permit - which was just yesterday.

Here is a little history first. I am a 28 year old women and have been open carrying throughout San Diego. I'm only 120 pounds.

In the past, I had a bad experience while in traffic. A male biker followed me through town and pulled up beside me, telling me to pull over because he claimed I damaged his bike. I cracked my window and told him I won't pull over and that he should just call the police. At the next stop light he began assaulting my car violently attempting to get in. He was screaming at me to get out of the vehicle. I was crying and scared for my life because I knew it wouldn't be long before this 230 pound man could get inside. I estimated he was that big because the boot marks on my car were about 14 inches and he was just plain big. Through the tears I was screaming at him to get away from me. I thought he was trying to kill me. So, I immediately ran a red light, did a U turn to start heading towards the police department - anything to get away from him before he could break into my car. I saw an officer and honked my horn and flashed my lights to get his attention. The police officer got out and I jumped out to trembling in fear and crying my eyes out. The biker had gone. He was no where to be found.

After receiving training by attending a Front Site hand gun course and getting repeated training from my husband who is a Marine Corps marksmanship instructor, I felt comfortable and aware enough to open carry at the mall, the coffee shop, Home Depot - basically anywhere that is lawful to carry. I haven't encountered any problems by doing this.

I decided I wanted to get my CCW permit because I prefer to not draw more attention to myself and I don't want to be mistaken for an off duty police officer by a unknown criminal. When I open carry the most common question is, "are you a police officer?"

A San Diego Sheriff's clerk is the one who conducts your first hour long interview. He looked over my paperwork. He asks me why I feel I need a CCW permit. I explain to him that I open carry already and would prefer to have the permit for the following reasons:

1. I believe that my personal safety is at risk and do not want to become a victim.
2. I'm a business women and I like to wear nice jewelry to my appointments and meetings. Sometimes that involves carrying cash.
3. I do fashion modeling and sometimes the shoot locations are not always in safe locations - like the Garment District in Downtown LA. If you've ever been there, it's a pretty dangerous location. Also, the shoots can take place in the earliest AM or very late PM.

The clerk told me straight up that one of the reason why they probably won't approve me for a CCW permit is because I tend to wear expensive jewelry. At the interview, I wore a nice suit and very little jewelry- the same thing I would wear to any business meeting. In response, to him, I calmly asked him, "so are you saying I shouldn't wear my wedding ring which is also expensive?" He told me that that was my choice and I explained to him " I choose for people to know I'm married." I shouldn't be afraid or live in fear like that. I felt like he was saying I should hide and be afraid of who is around me.

He then said that the my modeling on the side isn't enough to merit a CCW permit either. I was thinking- as a United States Citizen with a clean record, pays her taxes, had a college degree in Justice, is a licensed pilot and a volunteer at the local police department isn't enough to be issued a CCW? How responsible must one be? He gave me an example of some famous singer who was approved for a CCW permit because she documented death threats and had someone stalking her. So do I need something bad to happen to me before the San Diego Sheriff's Department will let me protect myself? I prefer to not follow that singers example. I am interested in prevention.

During the hour-long interview I felt like I was treated like I had a criminal record or couldn't be trusted with a concealed weapon. I maintained myself and calmly conversed with the clerk by using simple logic. I have a feeling that they were trying to get me angry in hopes I would react in a negative manner. Has anyone else had similar experiences? I would like to collect as much information as possible in order to be prepared for my second interview. Thank you.

CSDGuy
10-30-2010, 9:54 AM
That's apparently part of their application screening process. The clerk tries to convince you that you don't have sufficient good cause so you then don't actually turn your application in. That's effectively a denial that they wouldn't have to keep stats on.

The Shadow
10-30-2010, 10:00 AM
Has anyone considered recording a CCW interview? When I say recording, I mean openly placing your handy little digital recorder in front of the interviewer as the interview begins. Do they record the interview? Something to consider.

skroeker
10-30-2010, 10:05 AM
Shadow: That is exactly what I was thinking about doing for the next interview. I really wished I had recorded my first interview. I don't know what the law states about recording a conversation. I have no problem recording the next interview though.

Papa "J"
10-30-2010, 10:09 AM
I recently got my CCW in San Diego a couple of months ago. I had nothing short of a positive experience.

Everything I was told that needed to be done was in the time I was told.

The clerk I dealt with was very friendly and professional.

I never felt like I was being questioned or treated like a criminal.

Window_Seat
10-30-2010, 10:10 AM
Take a look here:

San Diego CCW Discussion thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=352786)

San Diego CCW Initiative page (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative/125-san-diego)

CGF: Announcing Carry Initiative, Ventura County Suit (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=353861)

And WELCOME to the board! The info above will brief you on what is happening.

Has anyone considered recording a CCW interview? When I say recording, I mean openly placing your handy little digital recorder in front of the interviewer as the interview begins. Do they record the interview? Something to consider.

Here's an idea worth http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif

I would imagine that they might be recording, but I would also imagine they would either prohibit you from recording them in the interview if they were asked or knew about it.

I would bring my VDR with me.

Erik.

Gray Peterson
10-30-2010, 10:19 AM
Hello, My name is SaraMae. I'm new to CalGuns. I wanted to share my experience in applying for my CCW permit - which was just yesterday.

Here is a little history first. I am a 28 year old women and have been open carrying throughout San Diego. I'm only 120 pounds.

In the past, I had a bad experience while in traffic. A male biker followed me through town and pulled up beside me, telling me to pull over because he claimed I damaged his bike. I cracked my window and told him I won't pull over and that he should just call the police. At the next stop light he began assaulting my car violently attempting to get in. He was screaming at me to get out of the vehicle. I was crying and scared for my life because I knew it wouldn't be long before this 230 pound man could get inside. I estimated he was that big because the boot marks on my car were about 14 inches and he was just plain big. Through the tears I was screaming at him to get away from me. I thought he was trying to kill me. So, I immediately ran a red light, did a U turn to start heading towards the police department - anything to get away from him before he could break into my car. I saw an officer and honked my horn and flashed my lights to get his attention. The police officer got out and I jumped out to trembling in fear and crying my eyes out. The biker had gone. He was no where to be found.

After receiving training by attending a Front Site hand gun course and getting repeated training from my husband who is a Marine Corps marksmanship instructor, I felt comfortable and aware enough to open carry at the mall, the coffee shop, Home Depot - basically anywhere that is lawful to carry. I haven't encountered any problems by doing this.

I decided I wanted to get my CCW permit because I prefer to not draw more attention to myself and I don't want to be mistaken for an off duty police officer by a unknown criminal. When I open carry the most common question is, "are you a police officer?"

A San Diego Sheriff's clerk is the one who conducts your first hour long interview. He looked over my paperwork. He asks me why I feel I need a CCW permit. I explain to him that I open carry already and would prefer to have the permit for the following reasons:

1. I believe that my personal safety is at risk and do not want to become a victim.
2. I'm a business women and I like to wear nice jewelry to my appointments and meetings. Sometimes that involves carrying cash.
3. I do fashion modeling and sometimes the shoot locations are not always in safe locations - like the Garment District in Downtown LA. If you've ever been there, it's a pretty dangerous location. Also, the shoots can take place in the earliest AM or very late PM.

The clerk told me straight up that one of the reason why they probably won't approve me for a CCW permit is because I tend to wear expensive jewelry. At the interview, I wore a nice suit and very little jewelry- the same thing I would wear to any business meeting. In response, to him, I calmly asked him, "so are you saying I shouldn't wear my wedding ring which is also expensive?" He told me that that was my choice and I explained to him " I choose for people to know I'm married." I shouldn't be afraid or live in fear like that. I felt like he was saying I should hide and be afraid of who is around me.

He then said that the my modeling on the side isn't enough to merit a CCW permit either. I was thinking- as a United States Citizen with a clean record, pays her taxes, had a college degree in Justice, is a licensed pilot and a volunteer at the local police department isn't enough to be issued a CCW? How responsible must one be? He gave me an example of some famous singer who was approved for a CCW permit because she documented death threats and had someone stalking her. So do I need something bad to happen to me before the San Diego Sheriff's Department will let me protect myself? I prefer to not follow that singers example. I am interested in prevention.

During the hour-long interview I felt like I was treated like a criminal. I maintained myself and calmly conversed with the clerk by using simple logic. I have a feeling that they were trying to get me angry in hopes I would react in a negative manner. Has anyone else had similar experiences? I would like to collect as much information as possible in order to be prepared for my second interview. Thank you.

Whatever you do, do not withdraw your application. Insist on being denied if they feel you don't have good cause. I have a feeling that they will approve you. Just sayin....

skroeker
10-30-2010, 10:20 AM
Thank you for the links, Window Seat!

GrizzlyGuy
10-30-2010, 10:22 AM
Welcome to Calguns! FYI, Peruta v. County of San Diego (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Peruta_v._County_of_San_Diego) is a case that is currently in federal court that, when decided, will hopefully make things better down there.

Shadow: That is exactly what I was thinking about doing for the next interview. I really wished I had recorded my first interview. I don't know what the law states about recording a conversation. I have no problem recording the next interview though.

The relevant law is 632 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/632.html). Short summary: If the parties reasonably expect that the conversation may be recorded, it is legal to record it without consent. Since you would be placing your recorder in plain view and maybe even stating "I am going to record this interview" then both parties would certainly have that reasonable expectation and it would be legal to record.

Whether or not the officer chooses to continue with the interview under those circumstances is another question.

skroeker
10-30-2010, 10:23 AM
Peterson: Yes, I am going to provide all the doc's they requested and continue on. :D

The Shadow
10-30-2010, 10:24 AM
Shadow: That is exactly what I was thinking about doing for the next interview. I really wished I had recorded my first interview. I don't know what the law states about recording a conversation. I have no problem recording the next interview though.

I'd say do it and stand your ground if they have a problem with it. So long as they know they are being recorded, it isn't illegal, and short of not interviewing you, there's nothing they can do about it.

Take a look here:

San Diego CCW Discussion thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=352786)

San Diego CCW Initiative page (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative/125-san-diego)

CGF: Announcing Carry Initiative, Ventura County Suit (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=353861)

And WELCOME to the board! The info above will brief you on what is happening.



Here's an idea worth http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/icons/icon3.gif

I would imagine that they might be recording, but I would also imagine they would either prohibit you from recording them in the interview if they were asked or knew about it.

I would bring my VDR with me.

Erik.

Video would be great, but I would be satisfied with just an audio recording. I suppose you could use the excuse that you are video recording to demonstrate how painless the CCW process is and see how they react. A person might even consider carrying both and settling for the audio recording if the interviewer is strongly opposed to the video recording. One other thought, if you choose to turn off the recorder, ask the interviewer why they are opposed to being recorded and at least document their response. Every little bit helps.

thrillhouse700
10-30-2010, 10:38 AM
Thank you for sharing you experience. I wish you the best of luck.

skroeker
10-30-2010, 11:19 AM
Thank you!

wellerjohn
10-30-2010, 1:27 PM
Good Luck and welcome

OleCuss
10-30-2010, 1:34 PM
Welcome to CalGuns and I wish you great good luck with the licensing. It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing in every way.

skroeker
10-30-2010, 2:13 PM
I appreciate everyone's support and comments. I don't feel so alone on this. Thanks to all!

Rivers
10-30-2010, 2:35 PM
My interviews (initial and renewals) in SD have been by a woman who was very nice and worked with me. I had to have a handgun change on my permit a couple years ago and encountered a (for description purposes only, not judgmental) somewhat effeminate guy who offered up his own opinion. Basically, civilians shouldn't carry guns, only cops. The basic anti-gun drivel. As I didn't think he was worth the effort, I didn't complain about his attitude to his supervisors.

If you have a business and can document (read: bury them with justification or paperwork, make it hard for them to justify denying you), that's the easiest civilian tact today. If you aren't self-employed, stay in the fight and drop hints (like using a recorder) that you won't be easy to deny, that lawyers are around the corner. Be politely persistent and don't be as accepting of crappy attitudes like I did then. The times have changed and now the leverage is on our side.

Ford8N
10-30-2010, 2:38 PM
The clerk told me straight up that one of the reason why they probably won't approve me for a CCW permit is because I tend to wear expensive jewelry. At the interview, I wore a nice suit and very little jewelry- the same thing I would wear to any business meeting. In response, to him, I calmly asked him, "so are you saying I shouldn't wear my wedding ring which is also expensive?" He told me that that was my choice and I explained to him " I choose for people to know I'm married." I shouldn't be afraid or live in fear like that. I felt like he was saying I should hide and be afraid of who is around me.

BS!!!!! That's like blaming rape on a woman wearing sexy clothes. What an Misogynist A**HOLE!

He then said that the my modeling on the side isn't enough to merit a CCW permit either. I was thinking- as a United States Citizen with a clean record, pays her taxes, had a college degree in Justice, is a licensed pilot and a volunteer at the local police department isn't enough to be issued a CCW? How responsible must one be? He gave me an example of some famous singer who was approved for a CCW permit because she documented death threats and had someone stalking her. So do I need something bad to happen to me before the San Diego Sheriff's Department will let me protect myself? I prefer to not follow that singers example. I am interested in prevention.

It is documented that Muslim terrorists want to kill all Americans any time any where. That good enough...or do you have to be 'famous". Jerk.

During the hour-long interview I felt like I was treated like a criminal. I maintained myself and calmly conversed with the clerk by using simple logic. I have a feeling that they were trying to get me angry in hopes I would react in a negative manner. Has anyone else had similar experiences? I would like to collect as much information as possible in order to be prepared for my second interview. Thank you.

It's obvious he doesn't give a damn about you. Terrible public service...and the tax payer pays his wage.



Sorry about the rant but the double standard for issuing CCWs is begging for a law suit in this crappy state.

hoffmang
10-30-2010, 2:54 PM
Sorry about the rant but the double standard for issuing CCWs is begging for a law suit in this crappy state.

He's already being sued.

-Gene

postal
10-30-2010, 6:58 PM
Thanks for joining, and posting about your experience in the interview.

Good luck in the process. I'm going to apply soon.

I do have to wonder though.... what you *might* have done to the "biker"... perhaps not even realizing you did something.

I ride- been riding since 1993. Cant count how many times I've *almost* been killed by someone in a car. Most of them never noticed me even after the event.

When one of my friends tells me a biker broke off their side view mirror, or threw a quarter/marble/ball bearing/rock/porcelain at their windshield and whining to me about it.... I pretend to side with the friend saying "Dude.... that's messed up!" but secretly, I ***KNOW*** they did --something-- to the biker, and deserved what they got. Seen both sides, and I know pretty much anyone who rides only does those things when they almost got killed...

I'm curious though why you posted your weight of 120 pounds. Do you think that being "lighter" than the average overweight American, you percieve yourself to be more of a target? That someone with a smaller stature is in "more" need of CCW just because of their stature?

I'm only curious since I'm a 37 yr old male 5 ft 10... and have a *whopping* 15 pounds on you on a good day...

Should I include my weight on a ccw application to show my 'vulnerability' because I'm not borderline obese like 70% of the population?:D Just wondering if it was pertinent to the application, or your personal percieved vulnerability due to being 'unfat'.:p

darkwater
10-30-2010, 9:38 PM
When one of my friends tells me a biker broke off their side view mirror, or threw a quarter/marble/ball bearing/rock/porcelain at their windshield and whining to me about it.... I pretend to side with the friend saying "Dude.... that's messed up!" but secretly, I ***KNOW*** they did --something-- to the biker, and deserved what they got. Seen both sides, and I know pretty much anyone who rides only does those things when they almost got killed...


Two wrongs do not make a right...

dantodd
10-30-2010, 9:47 PM
I do have to wonder though.... what you *might* have done to the "biker"... perhaps not even realizing you did something.

I ride- been riding since 1993. Cant count how many times I've *almost* been killed by someone in a car. Most of them never noticed me even after the event.

It doesn't matter what she *might* have done to the biker. Unless she tried to kill him intentionally there is no call for his attacking her. Since you somehow thought that your experience riding a bike somehow matters, I've been riding on the street since 1984 though I don't any longer and I've been riding since 1975.

I'm only curious since I'm a 37 yr old male 5 ft 10... and have a *whopping* 15 pounds on you on a good day...

Should I include my weight on a ccw application to show my 'vulnerability' because I'm not borderline obese like 70% of the population?:D Just wondering if it was pertinent to the application, or your personal percieved vulnerability due to being 'unfat'.:p

I am unsure if you are actually incapable of understanding how size matters in a physical confrontation or if you are simply trying to be a *****. Please let me know which it is so I can respond properly.

Munk
10-30-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm curious though why you posted your weight of 120 pounds. Do you think that being "lighter" than the average overweight American, you percieve yourself to be more of a target? That someone with a smaller stature is in "more" need of CCW just because of their stature?

I'm only curious since I'm a 37 yr old male 5 ft 10... and have a *whopping* 15 pounds on you on a good day...

Should I include my weight on a ccw application to show my 'vulnerability' because I'm not borderline obese like 70% of the population?:D Just wondering if it was pertinent to the application, or your personal percieved vulnerability due to being 'unfat'.:p

She's saying that any physical confrontation with most people would result in her being at a physical disadvantage. Unless they are amazingly talented a martial arts, a 120lb person is INCREDIBLY likely to be on the losing end of such a fight. This makes her a prime target for victimization (small, yet carrying valuables).

If you wanted to, you could include the fact that you are physically incapable of defending yourself in a physical altercation against a vast majority of the population; usually the "old folks" good cause, but it applies to small people as well.



To the OP, listen to the legal minds here, keep on moving with it, and things will turn out alright.
(Yeah, the people of the fashion district are pretty damn scary, especially at dawn/dusk)

chewy352
10-31-2010, 12:01 AM
Welcome to Calguns. There is an open carry meet up this monday (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?82532-Weekly-San-Diego-OC-Meet-3)if you would like to attend.

When I picked up my application a year ago I was told that my reason, defense of self and family, was not sufficient and I would be denied. I then learned about open carry and carry everywhere I can. I would love to have the option though.

Stay strong and don't back down. The law is on your side.

N6ATF
10-31-2010, 1:04 AM
Not surprising coming from a sheriff who presided over the summary execution of an unarmed woman holding a baby. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=167834)

Gore seems to prefer you have your ring violently wrestled off your finger and bones to be broken and/or necklace ripped with enough force to injure your neck, likely ending your modeling career if not also your life.

Victim-disarming traitorous scum.

Dancer
10-31-2010, 1:40 AM
Papa "J"
Your smooth experience must have been because you had such a "good cause".
Business owner?

skroeker
10-31-2010, 6:24 AM
[QUOTE=chewy352;5217801]Welcome to Calguns. There is an open carry meet up this monday (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?82532-Weekly-San-Diego-OC-Meet-3)if you would like to attend.

Thank you for the invitation. That sounds great! I think I can make it.

Papa "J"
10-31-2010, 8:18 AM
Papa "J"
Your smooth experience must have been because you had such a "good cause".
Business owner?

I am a business owner. I do carry quite a bit of cash and inventory.

Do other business owners that are denied get a reason they are denied?

SPROCKET
10-31-2010, 9:09 AM
It sounds like she just admitted to performing a hit and run. Classy.

20002. (a) The driver of any vehicle involved in an accident resulting only in damage to any property, including vehicles, shall immediately stop the vehicle at the nearest location that will not impede traffic or otherwise jeopardize the safety of other motorists. Moving the vehicle in accordance with this subdivision does not affect the question of fault. The driver shall also immediately do either of the following:

(1) Locate and notify the owner or person in charge of that property of the name and address of the driver and owner of the vehicle involved and, upon locating the driver of any other vehicle involved or the owner or person in charge of any damaged property, upon being requested, present his or her driver's license, and vehicle registration, to the other driver, property owner, or person in charge of that property. The information presented shall include the current residence address of the driver and of the registered owner. If the registered owner of an involved vehicle is present at the scene, he or she shall also, upon request, present his or her driver's license information, if available, or other valid identification to the other involved parties.

Gray Peterson
10-31-2010, 9:21 AM
It sounds like she just admitted to performing a hit and run. Classy.

20002. (a) The driver of any vehicle involved in an accident resulting only in damage to any property, including vehicles, shall immediately stop the vehicle at the nearest location that will not impede traffic or otherwise jeopardize the safety of other motorists. Moving the vehicle in accordance with this subdivision does not affect the question of fault. The driver shall also immediately do either of the following:

(1) Locate and notify the owner or person in charge of that property of the name and address of the driver and owner of the vehicle involved and, upon locating the driver of any other vehicle involved or the owner or person in charge of any damaged property, upon being requested, present his or her driver's license, and vehicle registration, to the other driver, property owner, or person in charge of that property. The information presented shall include the current residence address of the driver and of the registered owner. If the registered owner of an involved vehicle is present at the scene, he or she shall also, upon request, present his or her driver's license information, if available, or other valid identification to the other involved parties.


In the past, I had a bad experience while in traffic. A male biker followed me through town and pulled up beside me, telling me to pull over because he claimed I damaged his bike. I cracked my window and told him I won't pull over and that he should just call the police. At the next stop light he began assaulting my car violently attempting to get in. He was screaming at me to get out of the vehicle. I was crying and scared for my life because I knew it wouldn't be long before this 230 pound man could get inside. I estimated he was that big because the boot marks on my car were about 14 inches and he was just plain big. Through the tears I was screaming at him to get away from me. I thought he was trying to kill me. So, I immediately ran a red light, did a U turn to start heading towards the police department - anything to get away from him before he could break into my car. I saw an officer and honked my horn and flashed my lights to get his attention. The police officer got out and I jumped out to trembling in fear and crying my eyes out. The biker had gone. He was no where to be found.


If he was a legit motorcyclist he wouldn't be doing the above underlined. Committing violence of this level as far as I'm concerned, someone like that needs to be put in a morgue. "Claims" don't mean ****, if they wanted a legitimate insurance claim he could have gotten their license plate and called it in.

dantodd
10-31-2010, 10:16 AM
It sounds like she just admitted to performing a hit and run. Classy.

Her car was hit and she was afraid of the person who hit it and tracked down a police officer. Doesn't sound like a hit and run to me. Plus, the officer she flagged down didn't seem to think it was a hit and run.

Liberty1
10-31-2010, 10:25 AM
It sounds like she just admitted to performing a hit and run. Classy...

:rolleyes:
Knowledge is also an element of 20002 CVC. Doesn't sound like she believed that it was legit.

http://www.articlesbase.com/self-defense-articles/carjackinghow-to-recognize-methods-and-scams-used-most-by-carjackers-795601.html

Liberty1
10-31-2010, 10:27 AM
It sounds like she just admitted to performing a hit and run. Classy...

:rolleyes:

Knowledge is also an element of 20002 CVC.


http://www.articlesbase.com/self-defense-articles/carjackinghow-to-recognize-methods-and-scams-used-most-by-carjackers-795601.html

GOEX FFF
10-31-2010, 10:29 AM
Her car was hit and she was afraid of the person who hit it and tracked down a police officer. Doesn't sound like a hit and run to me. Plus, the officer she flagged down didn't seem to think it was a hit and run.

Agreed.

Hit and run drivers don't knowingly drive to the nearest police department waving down officers.

Good luck SaraMae with the CCW, we're all in this together.

Maestro Pistolero
10-31-2010, 10:49 AM
I'm curious though why you posted your weight of 120 pounds. Do you think that being "lighter" than the average overweight American, you percieve yourself to be more of a target? That someone with a smaller stature is in "more" need of CCW just because of their stature?It goes directly to a disparity of force issue.

postal
10-31-2010, 9:52 PM
It goes directly to a disparity of force issue.

Hmmm.... interesting. I *thought* this might work for elderly/disabled... but didnt know for sure. Didnt think it held merit for normal healthy "slim" people.

Works for me too as I am about 135lbs before my 2nd cup of coffee... probably less actually....

Not many months ago we had a big debate on unarmed personal protection which boiled down to recommendations of martial arts training/tasers/pepper/cane/umbrella/concealed carry pit bull/ you name it....

And the same people here on THIS forum who admit you're at a huge disadvantage based on physical size, are the SAME PEOPLE ON THAT THREAD that say "go learn BBJ/boxing/wrestling/"tai bo".

*I* personally put on THAT THREAD- what if you're old, weak, small, disabled arthritic, what have you.....

And someone posted something along the lines of "even a one legged man in an A** kicking contest should do whatever they can." (go down fighting)

So to me, its funny that this particular thread has such different perspective of the same matter, and even from some of the same people. Did your answers change just because the OP is a female?

No one on this thread told her to take up martial arts....

Dantodd, see above... NO I'm not trying to be a "*****"- Just wanted clarification from some probably bad advice of a prior thread.
..........................

On to the biker-
He claimed she damaged the bike
possibly without her knowledge, and she fled the scene. Makes her the bad guy. After that point in time, anything the biker did, well- I understand. I wont say it's right or wrong, but I do say that I DO understand...

What if she really did damage his bike? She's at fault, fleeing the scene, leaving the repair bill to him for *HER* damages. How would all of you SAME PEOPLE feel if someone damaged YOUR CAR and drove off?

Perhaps she really DID damage his bike, and after she refused to pull over, he lost his temper and put his boot into her quarterpanel- after doing so, he felt they were "even" and left it at that. Again, I wont say I agree or disagree, but I understand.

For the rest of you..... DanTodd/others jumping on me for my take on the biker...

Would *YOU* care if someone killed you, or almost killed you by "accident" because they're yapping on their phone/texting compared to "on purpose"? After it happens to you a few dozen times, you stop seeing a difference. When you're driving, all of your attention should be focused on THAT task. We all know that a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and killing a biker by "accident" is still involuntary manslaughter at a MINIMUM- So I dont understand your point of contention. I woudlnt much care if someone killed me by "accident" compared to "on purpose". I'd still be dead-

And yes- I do believe that roadragers in cars have actually TRIED to kill me ON PURPOSE at least 3 times. Apparently some people are a little too jealous that splitting lanes is ok in California.

Still, I've not broken off mirrors or cracked windshields myself..... but I do UNDERSTAND.


Maybe some of you disagree.... but as far as I'm concerned, *my life* is worth more than *YOUR* windshield. Perhaps ponying up several hundred bucks to replace your windshield would give you reason to ponder *WHY* it got cracked, and *maybe* you'll be a better driver in the future and ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION when driving. Instead of paying for a new windshield....

Darkwater- "2 wrongs dont make a right".

A negative times a negative equals a positive.

Or you can go the biblical route and say "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth."


As I said... I've never broken off a mirror or cracked a windshield..... but I do understand.


-----------------

Perhaps on my own CCW app I should go this route as well- small stature/ easy target/disparity of force. Would be just one more viable reason for me.

Though perhaps I should leave out the 5 yrs of MMA?

RomanDad
10-31-2010, 10:11 PM
The clerk told me straight up that one of the reason why they probably won't approve me for a CCW permit is because I tend to wear expensive jewelry. At the interview, I wore a nice suit and very little jewelry- the same thing I would wear to any business meeting. In response, to him, I calmly asked him, "so are you saying I shouldn't wear my wedding ring which is also expensive?" He told me that that was my choice and I explained to him " I choose for people to know I'm married." I shouldn't be afraid or live in fear like that. I felt like he was saying I should hide and be afraid of who is around me.


You should have asked him if reserve police officers get ccws.... Thats their choice.

Ishoot
10-31-2010, 10:11 PM
Hmmm.... interesting. I *thought* this might work for elderly/disabled... but didnt know for sure. Didnt think it held merit for normal healthy "slim" people.

Works for me too as I am about 135lbs before my 2nd cup of coffee... probably less actually....

Not many months ago we had a big debate on unarmed personal protection which boiled down to recommendations of martial arts training/tasers/pepper/cane/umbrella/concealed carry pit bull/ you name it....

And the same people here on THIS forum who admit you're at a huge disadvantage based on physical size, are the SAME PEOPLE ON THAT THREAD that say "go learn BBJ/boxing/wrestling/"tai bo".

*I* personally put on THAT THREAD- what if you're old, weak, small, disabled arthritic, what have you.....

And someone posted something along the lines of "even a one legged man in an A** kicking contest should do whatever they can." (go down fighting)

So to me, its funny that this particular thread has such different perspective of the same matter, and even from some of the same people. Did your answers change just because the OP is a female?

No one on this thread told her to take up martial arts....

Dantodd, see above... NO I'm not trying to be a "*****"- Just wanted clarification from some probably bad advice of a prior thread.
..........................

On to the biker-
He claimed she damaged the bike
possibly without her knowledge, and she fled the scene. Makes her the bad guy. After that point in time, anything the biker did, well- I understand. I wont say it's right or wrong, but I do say that I DO understand...

What if she really did damage his bike? She's at fault, fleeing the scene, leaving the repair bill to him for *HER* damages. How would all of you SAME PEOPLE feel if someone damaged YOUR CAR and drove off?

Perhaps she really DID damage his bike, and after she refused to pull over, he lost his temper and put his boot into her quarterpanel- after doing so, he felt they were "even" and left it at that. Again, I wont say I agree or disagree, but I understand.

For the rest of you..... DanTodd/others jumping on me for my take on the biker...

Would *YOU* care if someone killed you, or almost killed you by "accident" because they're yapping on their phone/texting compared to "on purpose"? After it happens to you a few dozen times, you stop seeing a difference. When you're driving, all of your attention should be focused on THAT task. We all know that a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and killing a biker by "accident" is still involuntary manslaughter at a MINIMUM- So I dont understand your point of contention. I woudlnt much care if someone killed me by "accident" compared to "on purpose". I'd still be dead-

And yes- I do believe that roadragers in cars have actually TRIED to kill me ON PURPOSE at least 3 times. Apparently some people are a little too jealous that splitting lanes is ok in California.

Still, I've not broken off mirrors or cracked windshields myself..... but I do UNDERSTAND.


Maybe some of you disagree.... but as far as I'm concerned, *my life* is worth more than *YOUR* windshield. Perhaps ponying up several hundred bucks to replace your windshield would give you reason to ponder *WHY* it got cracked, and *maybe* you'll be a better driver in the future and ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION when driving. Instead of paying for a new windshield....

Darkwater- "2 wrongs dont make a right".

A negative times a negative equals a positive.

Or you can go the biblical route and say "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth."


As I said... I've never broken off a mirror or cracked a windshield..... but I do understand.


-----------------

Perhaps on my own CCW app I should go this route as well- small stature/ easy target/disparity of force. Would be just one more viable reason for me.

Though perhaps I should leave out the 5 yrs of MMA?

You probably shouldn't apply for your CCW with this kind of mindset. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you don't seem to "understand" that well enough to be rightfully issued one. Maybe when they research your application, they will come across this thread and realize the repressed anger you carry around. :rolleyes:

pitchbaby
10-31-2010, 10:29 PM
SaraMae... As I read your comments and those of others in SD who have had better experiences on this initial interview, one of the first things that started to become clear in my mind is that perhaps this interviewer has some sort of erroneous idea that a CCW holder should only come in one gender and size. Then to hear that he discouraged you based on your fashion decisions... HOLY CRAP... I guess it just goes to show the arrogance that certain members of the LE class have. I am glad that many of the LE types I know and made friendships with do not share this opinion, although I do know a few.

Tell the truth, fight for your rights in all the right ways. It will be worth it in the end. Even if that end has your name as a plaintiff in the current or new litigation against your sheriff.... the legal team here really puts their efforts where their mouth is.

Welcome to Calguns!

postal
11-01-2010, 12:05 AM
You probably shouldn't apply for your CCW with this kind of mindset. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you don't seem to "understand" that well enough to be rightfully issued one. Maybe when they research your application, they will come across this thread and realize the repressed anger you carry around. :rolleyes:

After everything I typed... this is all you could come up with?:rolleyes:
An internet expert wants to give a psych analysis on me based on a joke responce I came up with in 5th grade for when a teacher said "2 wrongs dont make a right"?:confused:


So it boils down to: *You* didnt like what I posted, and cant think of anything of any value or use whatsoever to post in disagreement in a serious arguement, so you went with a below the belt cheap shot instead.:nono:

chewy352
11-01-2010, 1:06 AM
Apparently some people are a little too jealous that splitting lanes is ok in California.

Still, I've not broken off mirrors or cracked windshields myself..... but I do UNDERSTAND.


Maybe some of you disagree.... but as far as I'm concerned, *my life* is worth more than *YOUR* windshield. Perhaps ponying up several hundred bucks to replace your windshield would give you reason to ponder *WHY* it got cracked, and *maybe* you'll be a better driver in the future and ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION when driving. Instead of paying for a new windshield....

I can only speak for myself but I do believe many others would agree that most bikers take lane splitting to the extreme by lane splitting at speeds over 25 mph. I have seen numerous bikers split lanes going well over 80 mph.

The other contention with bikers is the extreme speed in which they routinely ride. Even when I am being the most observant defensive driver, when my 3y/o is with me, I have looked away from the mirror for just a couple of seconds and then out of no where a motorcycle flies by.

So no I don't think it is about jealousy. I think it is about the dangerous and disrespectful way in which most bikers ride. If you would like to see automobile drivers attitudes change towards motorcycles then I suggest motorcyclist start thinking about how their driving affect people in cars. It is quite a start when your next to another car going 75 mph and out of no where a motorcycle splits you at 80-90 mph.

Of course I don't know you and I am no traffic safety expert so don't take this as an attack, it is just my personal observations and opinions.

wash
11-01-2010, 10:37 AM
I would like to say to SaraMae that she should really listen to and possibly contact Gray Peterson.

We've got the Calguns foundation CCW sunshine program that is designed to guide people through the CCW application process and Gray is a big part of that.

The police are trying to do everything they can to keep you unarmed but the law isn't on their side. If you make the right moves and have the right "good cause" they can't deny your application. Grey can tell you how to do it.

Good luck.

Veggie
11-01-2010, 11:00 AM
Didn't you know that by just being a women you are asking for trouble? Shame on you for artificially increasing your need for a weapon.

Operator
11-01-2010, 11:54 AM
............................

On to the biker-
He claimed she damaged the bike
possibly without her knowledge, and she fled the scene. Makes her the bad guy. After that point in time, anything the biker did, well- I understand. I wont say it's right or wrong, but I do say that I DO understand...

What if she really did damage his bike? She's at fault, fleeing the scene, leaving the repair bill to him for *HER* damages. How would all of you SAME PEOPLE feel if someone damaged YOUR CAR and drove off?

Perhaps she really DID damage his bike, and after she refused to pull over, he lost his temper and put his boot into her quarterpanel- after doing so, he felt they were "even" and left it at that. Again, I wont say I agree or disagree, but I understand.

For the rest of you..... DanTodd/others jumping on me for my take on the biker...

Would *YOU* care if someone killed you, or almost killed you by "accident" because they're yapping on their phone/texting compared to "on purpose"? After it happens to you a few dozen times, you stop seeing a difference. When you're driving, all of your attention should be focused on THAT task. We all know that a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and killing a biker by "accident" is still involuntary manslaughter at a MINIMUM- So I dont understand your point of contention. I woudlnt much care if someone killed me by "accident" compared to "on purpose". I'd still be dead-

And yes- I do believe that roadragers in cars have actually TRIED to kill me ON PURPOSE at least 3 times. Apparently some people are a little too jealous that splitting lanes is ok in California.

Still, I've not broken off mirrors or cracked windshields myself..... but I do UNDERSTAND.


Maybe some of you disagree.... but as far as I'm concerned, *my life* is worth more than *YOUR* windshield. Perhaps ponying up several hundred bucks to replace your windshield would give you reason to ponder *WHY* it got cracked, and *maybe* you'll be a better driver in the future and ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION when driving. Instead of paying for a new windshield....

Darkwater- "2 wrongs dont make a right".

A negative times a negative equals a positive.

Or you can go the biblical route and say "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth."


As I said... I've never broken off a mirror or cracked a windshield..... but I do understand.


-----------------

Perhaps on my own CCW app I should go this route as well- small stature/ easy target/disparity of force. Would be just one more viable reason for me.

Though perhaps I should leave out the 5 yrs of MMA?


Assault is not right or wrong to you? WHAT!?!?!

I really hope you are mis speaking. I really hope what you mean in all of this is that while you know that the Biker was wrong and also breaking the law, you can empathize with him because you too are a biker, and you have been in that situation, but you have not lost control and acted out in violence.

I'm not a biker, I'm not a cop, But If she had pulled over, and he had attacked her (like he did her car) for whatever reason, and I would have been the by standard, he would have been chewing on some .45's from the business end of my carry weapon.

If you think that because she "might" have done anything that it is OK for him to retaliate in that way. I hope someone takes your guns away.

And to the question if someone damaged my car and drove off?

I would call the police, and my insurance company. NOT chase down the little woman and beat her car. Cause I'm pretty sure thats WRONG!

I would like to take just a moment to remind you of a couple of laws that there is no justice for. They are Newtons Laws of Motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion). -- In summary, if there is an accident, the biker will lose. Every time. Without question. Regardless of fault.
Bikes will always be dangerous. if you don't like it. Don't ride. I understand you think it's everyone else's problem, but grown ups know that when they ride they have the responsibility to be safe and not allow this to be anyone else responsibility. If an accident happens, report it, just like cars do. just because you are on a bike doesn't give you any more of a right to take justice in your own hands.

Wherryj
11-01-2010, 1:32 PM
Thanks for joining, and posting about your experience in the interview.

Good luck in the process. I'm going to apply soon.

I do have to wonder though.... what you *might* have done to the "biker"... perhaps not even realizing you did something.

I ride- been riding since 1993. Cant count how many times I've *almost* been killed by someone in a car. Most of them never noticed me even after the event.

When one of my friends tells me a biker broke off their side view mirror, or threw a quarter/marble/ball bearing/rock/porcelain at their windshield and whining to me about it.... I pretend to side with the friend saying "Dude.... that's messed up!" but secretly, I ***KNOW*** they did --something-- to the biker, and deserved what they got. Seen both sides, and I know pretty much anyone who rides only does those things when they almost got killed...

I'm curious though why you posted your weight of 120 pounds. Do you think that being "lighter" than the average overweight American, you percieve yourself to be more of a target? That someone with a smaller stature is in "more" need of CCW just because of their stature?

I'm only curious since I'm a 37 yr old male 5 ft 10... and have a *whopping* 15 pounds on you on a good day...

Should I include my weight on a ccw application to show my 'vulnerability' because I'm not borderline obese like 70% of the population?:D Just wondering if it was pertinent to the application, or your personal percieved vulnerability due to being 'unfat'.:p

Just a word of advice to bikers who like to throw things at vehicles, whether they were hit or not:

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uL_BkVHwTDs&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uL_BkVHwTDs&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

By the way, you would be commiting a crime by throwing objects at a vehicle, whether you feel justified or not. Then there is always the laws of physics. A 500 pound motorcycle ALWAYS loses to a 2 ton car.

Dancer
11-01-2010, 1:50 PM
Does anyone know why it takes 60-90 days for them to complete the background check? What could take that long? ...or is there a backlog and it takes them a while to get started?

dantodd
11-01-2010, 1:53 PM
Dantodd, see above... NO I'm not trying to be a "*****"- Just wanted clarification from some probably bad advice of a prior thread.

I remember the thread and yes, it was full of fail. One need not give up their right to a firearm just because they could learn a martial art.

Though perhaps I should leave out the 5 yrs of MMA?

You should definitely leave off anything that is not going to improve your chances to get a CCW. Things like enjoying fighting or refusing to condemn assault would qualify as thing to not put on your CCW.

Untamed1972
11-01-2010, 2:02 PM
Does anyone know why it takes 60-90 days for them to complete the background check? What could take that long? ...or is there a backlog and it takes them a while to get started?

Backlog is prolly part of it. And because they choose to do far more intrusive/extensive background checks then are needed they hafta give themselves plenty of time to poke into every corner of your life to find an excuse to deny your rights.

ETA: If FFLs in most states can do an "instant background check" on you to buy a gun in just a few minutes, CA can do their more detailed check in 10 days, and I got my UT permit in in less then 60 days from the date I mailed it in, there is NO justifiable reason they need 60-90 days to do a background check.

Ford8N
11-01-2010, 2:42 PM
Backlog is prolly part of it. And because they choose to do far more intrusive/extensive background checks then are needed they hafta give themselves plenty of time to poke into every corner of your life to find an excuse to deny your rights.

They will deny you a CCW anyway, they need no excuse. You could be Jesus Christ and walk on water, the answer is NO!!!!!!!

hoffmang
11-01-2010, 3:10 PM
Does anyone know why it takes 60-90 days for them to complete the background check? What could take that long? ...or is there a backlog and it takes them a while to get started?

FBI responses to Livescans seem to be taking about 40-45 days as we're monitoring applications across the state. CA get's 'em turned around in about two weeks.

-Gene

chewy352
11-01-2010, 3:46 PM
I had my Washington CCW in hand in 7 days. No excuses!!!

Untamed1972
11-01-2010, 4:02 PM
I had my Washington CCW in hand in 7 days. No excuses!!!

I think it will be interesting in time to see states try and justify why the background check needed for a carry permit needs to be anymore extensive then the check to purchase a firearm.

If the right is to "keep AND bear" and you're legal to keep a firearm, why the extra scutiny placed on bearing it?

GearHead
11-01-2010, 4:09 PM
I still can't believe all the hoops people have to jump through in this state to defend themselves. As a non resident, it is nothing short of astonishing to see that you have to actually explain why you want to carry and go through interviews, etc. Insanity!

Good luck, keep fighting the good fight!

CSDGuy
11-01-2010, 4:12 PM
My returns for FBI was the same day. My return for the state was <24 hours, with electronic notification to the requesting agency... Then again, the DoJ and FBI don't have to start from scratch with me... I've been "scanned" for firearms clearances 2 times prior to the one for CCW, at least a couple times for EMS, and once (that I recall) for teaching...

If there was a way to relay ATI numbers for Firearms clearances as a way to reduce time/costs... that would be a wonderful thing.

meaty-btz
11-01-2010, 4:28 PM
I just want to reitterate to Postal, its either a felony or a misdemeanor to as a biker carry and use berrings/marbles/chains/and other improvised weapons to be used on cars. I will get the exact penal code tomorrow from my biker buddy, I don't feel like trawling the internet atm.

Breaking a windshield with a marble/berring can KILL and cause accidents etc. It is never justifyable to use weapons on a car. I also ride, and yes, I watch out for absolute idiot drivers not looking and when driving watch carefully for bikers and give them a little leway due to the differences between our two vehicles in acceration, maneuverabillity, etc.

I for one am glad she is ok, I know some bikers who would have torn the car appart for just looking at them wrong, they feel its justified because: Those damn Cars.. which goes with the same kind of attitude Those Damn Unions, Those Damn Politicians or any other excuse people like to cook up to excuse bad behaivor.

pitchbaby
11-01-2010, 4:28 PM
FBI responses to Livescans seem to be taking about 40-45 days as we're monitoring applications across the state. CA get's 'em turned around in about two weeks.

-Gene

Don't you realize Gene, you can't just say that without some sort of a disclaimer letting us know if this is a real two weeks or a calguns two weeks.:rofl2:

dantodd
11-01-2010, 4:30 PM
I can't believe we are having a conversation about bikes v. cars and not one Volvo reference yet. Have times changed THAT much since I was active on the bike boards?

Hump0311
11-01-2010, 6:07 PM
SaraMae.. welcome to calguns and tell your hubby I said thank you for serving. I hope that you get your ccw and keep us updated on the progress.

Postal.. I'm pretty sure that comparing your small stature to a girl is not just cause to get a ccw. I'm not sure why you wanted to point out the fact that you only have 15lbs on her besides it having something to do with another post that you were involved in. If she had done something to the biker prior to him pulling up next to her I don't think that she did it intentionally. I hope that it's a really small percentage of bikers that think like you. I know if my wife was placed in the same situation as SaraMae with an angry biker attacking her vehicle or person that I would not care about the reason why he did it and I don't think a judge would either. I do teach my wife to get make,model,color,plate on the spot if something happens and to tell all that information to 911 as it's happening. Someone cutting you off does not give you the right to become a vigilante and take justice into your own hands. I get cut off at least once or twice daily when I drive on any of the expressways out here in California so I know it must be worst for bikers. On the flip side I see bikers on the 5 all the time with the whip tassles and ball bearing pouches attached to there bikes. I know why they have them and it's not just for looks. I try to be aware of my surroundings 24/7. It's hard to see a bike bobbing and weaving in and out of traffic going more than 80mph, I think it's up to the biker to remember that because most of them that do bob'n'weave must think that everyone driver in front of them knows that there is a bike coming up on them that fast and every driver is driving at 10' and 2' staying off thier cell phones while doing there makeup(I've seen this multiple times).I guess my point is that alot of my friends ride and I have never heard any of them make comment's like you did. I'm going to assume that you are angry over past situations that you have experianced and are letting that anger persuade your remarks to the OP's comment.

Funny thing about first impression's, is that you only get one.

ale014
11-01-2010, 7:33 PM
welcome to calguns! try calccw.com another great site/forum to help you in getting your ccw! hope it helps

M14 Junkie
11-01-2010, 8:35 PM
I can't believe we are having a conversation about bikes v. cars and not one Volvo reference yet. Have times changed THAT much since I was active on the bike boards?

Yep! Now days it's Priuses and Subarus as well as the idiot in a Volvo.:52:

chuckdc
11-01-2010, 11:21 PM
On to the biker-
He claimed she damaged the bike
possibly without her knowledge, and she fled the scene. Makes her the bad guy. After that point in time, anything the biker did, well- I understand. I wont say it's right or wrong, but I do say that I DO understand...

What if she really did damage his bike? She's at fault, fleeing the scene, leaving the repair bill to him for *HER* damages. How would all of you SAME PEOPLE feel if someone damaged YOUR CAR and drove off?

Perhaps she really DID damage his bike, and after she refused to pull over, he lost his temper and put his boot into her quarterpanel- after doing so, he felt they were "even" and left it at that. Again, I wont say I agree or disagree, but I understand.

For the rest of you..... DanTodd/others jumping on me for my take on the biker...

Would *YOU* care if someone killed you, or almost killed you by "accident" because they're yapping on their phone/texting compared to "on purpose"? After it happens to you a few dozen times, you stop seeing a difference. When you're driving, all of your attention should be focused on THAT task. We all know that a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and killing a biker by "accident" is still involuntary manslaughter at a MINIMUM- So I dont understand your point of contention. I woudlnt much care if someone killed me by "accident" compared to "on purpose". I'd still be dead-

And yes- I do believe that roadragers in cars have actually TRIED to kill me ON PURPOSE at least 3 times. Apparently some people are a little too jealous that splitting lanes is ok in California.

Still, I've not broken off mirrors or cracked windshields myself..... but I do UNDERSTAND.


Maybe some of you disagree.... but as far as I'm concerned, *my life* is worth more than *YOUR* windshield. Perhaps ponying up several hundred bucks to replace your windshield would give you reason to ponder *WHY* it got cracked, and *maybe* you'll be a better driver in the future and ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION when driving. Instead of paying for a new windshield....

Darkwater- "2 wrongs dont make a right".

A negative times a negative equals a positive.

Or you can go the biblical route and say "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth."


As I said... I've never broken off a mirror or cracked a windshield..... but I do understand.


If the biker was the "innocent victim" in this, then why did he bugger off as soon as she managed to flag down the cop?

Sorry, but some major minus points toward credibility of the "she hit him without knowing it" point of view in light of his actions. Plus, there's still no excuse for the assault.

CnCFunFactory
11-02-2010, 12:45 AM
To the OP...

Can I get clarification on something? You use the term "biker" do you mean a bicyclist or a motorcyclist?

skroeker
11-02-2010, 7:51 AM
It was a Harley Motorcycle.

skroeker
11-02-2010, 7:51 AM
Thank you guys for posting information that can assist me through this process.
The links and contacts that members have PM'd me are helping. So thank you! :D

NoJoke
11-02-2010, 8:58 AM
I think it is horrible that a law abiding citizen who has had to endure a very scary and one sided confrontation must then be told by the state in which she resides that she cannot protect herself....no matter what the 2a says.

Shame on everyone who's involved in that decision/influence, no matter what the official policy is! :mad:

It's just WRONG! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

N6ATF
11-02-2010, 10:28 AM
I think it is horrible that a law abiding citizen who has had to endure a very scary and one sided confrontation must then be told by the state in which she resides that she cannot protect herself....no matter what the 2a says.

Shame on everyone who's involved in that decision/influence, no matter what the official policy is! :mad:

It's just EVIL! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Fixed. Gore already has a special place in hell reserved.

postal
11-03-2010, 8:11 PM
SaraMae.. welcome to calguns and tell your hubby I said thank you for serving. I hope that you get your ccw and keep us updated on the progress.

Postal.. I'm pretty sure that comparing your small stature to a girl is not just cause to get a ccw. I'm not sure why you wanted to point out the fact that you only have 15lbs on her besides it having something to do with another post that you were involved in.

Perhaps you're referring to a thread for "skinny" people?

Honestly, I dont know what I weigh right now, I've been afraid of the scale for years. And best I can recall, yup- 5' 10" and about 133-135 pounds. Sure would be nice to be a "normal" weight....

In fact I did question her reason for posting her weight to clarify if it *could* have any effect on a CCW being issued. Others have already answered that- I think *disparity of force" was the best term.

I already stated that I thought physical condition could work for the elderly or disabled, but until this thread, did not know that being "short" or "skinny" *can* help as well. It was a serious question- and several people actually gave me serious answers.

If she had done something to the biker prior to him pulling up next to her I don't think that she did it intentionally. I hope that it's a really small percentage of bikers that think like you. I know if my wife was placed in the same situation as SaraMae with an angry biker attacking her vehicle or person that I would not care about the reason why he did it and I don't think a judge would either. I do teach my wife to get make,model,color,plate on the spot if something happens and to tell all that information to 911 as it's happening. Someone cutting you off does not give you the right to become a vigilante and take justice into your own hands. I get cut off at least once or twice daily when I drive on any of the expressways out here in California so I know it must be worst for bikers. On the flip side I see bikers on the 5 all the time with the whip tassles and ball bearing pouches attached to there bikes. I know why they have them and it's not just for looks. I try to be aware of my surroundings 24/7. It's hard to see a bike bobbing and weaving in and out of traffic going more than 80mph, I think it's up to the biker to remember that because most of them that do bob'n'weave must think that everyone driver in front of them knows that there is a bike coming up on them that fast and every driver is driving at 10' and 2' staying off thier cell phones while doing there makeup(I've seen this multiple times).I guess my point is that alot of my friends ride and I have never heard any of them make comment's like you did. I'm going to assume that you are angry over past situations that you have experianced and are letting that anger persuade your remarks to the OP's comment.

Funny thing about first impression's, is that you only get one.

getting 'cut off' in a car, isnt the same as on a bike. A minor fender bender in a car, is a serious life threatening situation for a rider.

I've seen it all. Makeup is common. guys shaving, people reading the newspaper. I cant count how many times I've almost been killed by some idiot on a cell, and since they got a phone on their ear, somehow they cant turn their head to check their blindspot...(yes you can move your arm and your head at the ****SAME TIME****!

I do "whiteline" as legal as can be done. I'm NOT the guy that rips between cars at 80mph. Once traffic is doing 60 or so, I stop whitelining. I have 27k miles on my 2007 R6.... I expect to get a lot more since I dont ride like an idiot.

Someone above mentioned that riding makes someone a better driver. I agree 10,000%. I dont just look for a turn signal. I dont just "watch the car" that might change lanes. I'm actually looking at where your car is in the lane (people drift to the side they're going to go) and I'm actually look at you in YOUR sideview mirror. You also quickly learn to predict what a driver might do and anticipate the lane change.

I cant really understand why everyone has their panties in wad over this. I'm simply pointing out some of the *POSSIBILITIES* of what **could** have REALLY occurred. After all- we only have 1 side of the story. I'm simply hashing out *what if's* from the bikers point of view. And again- just that I understand.

And tell me, whats so horrible about UNDERSTANDING ***why*** someone might do something? It's simply a matter of following logic and reason with a small hint of behavioral study.

I will never ever understand random acts of violence. However, violence with a PURPOSE, I understand. Didnt say I agree, or disagree- just that I understand where this action came from.

A guy walks into McDonalds and starts shooting everyone in the restaurant- I dont get it. Never will.

Gas hits $5.00 a gal again, dude steals gas truck, drives it through exxon headquarters.... Yup- I understand. Didnt say it was right.....but I understand.

Do you?

---Well..... *Maybe*???? the guy that shot up mcdonalds, just came from the drive thru and they got his order wrong?:biggrinjester:

postal
11-03-2010, 10:15 PM
I've heard a LOT of stories from bikers about breaking off mirrors, breaking windshields, kicking in quarter panels....

Never EVER have I heard of this happening for 'no reason'. There was always a reason.

Perhaps maybe a 'biker' would decide to do these things as a complete random act.... but I would guess it happens about as often as a legal CCW holder committing a crime....

Again- I dont approve or dissaprove- just saying I UNDERSTAND why it happens.

Bugei
11-04-2010, 9:45 AM
I'd say do it and stand your ground if they have a problem with it. So long as they know they are being recorded, it isn't illegal, and short of not interviewing you, there's nothing they can do about it.

The worst thing that could happen is that the officer/clerk/whoever breaks off the interview. That in itself would be both interesting and valuable.

sdrider
11-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Take a look here:

San Diego CCW Initiative page (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative/125-san-diego)


I've been looking into San Diego CCW myself recently, as Peruta (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Peruta_v._County_of_San_Diego) is working it's way through federal court and stands a good chance of having a similar effect to San Diego as Sykes (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Sykes_v._McGinness) did to Sacramento recently (Sacramento is now shall-issue). The link above that Window_Seat included has lots of good of information, but I wanted to call out this link specifically from that page:

http://calgunsfoundation.org/downloads/documents/SanDiego.pdf

This is one of the most informative reads on current San Diego CCW I've ever seen. If you read it, you'll find your first interviewer was in fact just following the script and you'll have some idea of what to expect during your second interview as well. There's also great information in there about how CCWs are issued preferentially to San Diego County Honorable Sheriffs Association (http://www.sdchdsa.org/) members, and specifically how one person refused a CCW later joined SDCHSA and was then given his CCW (only to be taken away years later when he left SDCHSA).

Personally, I'm waiting for Peruta to finish as I expect "self defense" will become acceptable as good cause, making San Diego effectively shall-issue and end this whole "strong discouragement" interview process and preferential CCW issuance from taking place.

UPDATE: whoops, sorry, that bit about SDCHSA I found from the Peruta wiki, which linked to this article (http://www.examiner.com/county-political-buzz-in-san-diego/a-showdown-with-san-diego-sheriff-s-dept-and-issuance-of-conceal-carry-permits-set-for-court), which includes key excerpts of case documents in which Mark Cleary describes his experience with the SDCHSA I referenced above.

dantodd
11-04-2010, 11:02 AM
Again- I dont approve or dissaprove- just saying I UNDERSTAND why it happens.

You did not see immediately where a woman would be fearful in a confrontation with a man who is assaulting her vehicle and that the size disparity is an integral part of that fear.

Further you don't disapprove of someone physically attacking another person for an unintentional action (let's assume you are right that the woman cut the biker off or some other such offense) that they were not even aware of.

I think that these two positions make it pretty clear that any further discussion on this matter with you would be pointless for either party.

ancora
11-04-2010, 11:24 AM
In San Diego County, getting a CCW is just like the real estate business: location, location, location. Is it a coincidence that most of the CCWs go to residents in Rancho Santa Fe, and La Jolla?

N6ATF
11-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Location, location, location, or millionaires, millionaires, millionaires.

POLICESTATE
11-04-2010, 12:44 PM
I recently got my CCW in San Diego a couple of months ago. I had nothing short of a positive experience.

Everything I was told that needed to be done was in the time I was told.

The clerk I dealt with was very friendly and professional.

I never felt like I was being questioned or treated like a criminal.

Maybe your good cause reason were better? Just out of curiosity what were they?

stix213
11-04-2010, 1:48 PM
If the biker was the "innocent victim" in this, then why did he bugger off as soon as she managed to flag down the cop?

Sorry, but some major minus points toward credibility of the "she hit him without knowing it" point of view in light of his actions. Plus, there's still no excuse for the assault.

Exactly, him leaving when a cop shows up says everything you need to know about what happened.

Its kinda sad and scary there are people on this board defending the guy.

Good luck to the OP getting the CCW by the way. I plan on filing for mine as soon as Sonoma County removes previous denial as cause for future denials, since I'm sure I will be denied today. (I don't carry jewelry, or lots of cash, I just work in San Francisco where there has been a recent murder within yards from my office, but same with every office in the city)

HighValleyRanch
11-04-2010, 2:25 PM
somebody has "gone postal" on this thread!:eek:

Ford8N
11-04-2010, 2:44 PM
Maybe your good cause reason were better? Just out of curiosity what were they?

You know what I've noticed. People who claim to have got a CCW seem to NEVER say what their "good cause" reason is. Hmmm......

POLICESTATE
11-04-2010, 2:49 PM
You know what I've noticed. People who claim to have got a CCW seem to NEVER say what their "good cause" reason is. Hmmm......

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Here's a good cause requirement reason I could try in Santa Clara County that I think *might* get me an approved CCW:

"Donated $25,000 to Sheriff Laurie's recent re-election campaign, as a result there are many criminal elements in the community at large that may attempt to seek me out for retribution for my support of a great sheriff if they were to learn of it"

Except I didn't donate any money to her campaign so obviously I can't use that :rolleyes:

Not to mention there is an outright lie in that statement, you know, the part about our sheriff being great :rofl2: :(

Ford8N
11-04-2010, 2:56 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Here's a good cause requirement reason I could try in Santa Clara County that I think *might* get me an approved CCW:

"Donated $25,000 to Sheriff Laurie's recent re-election campaign, as a result there are many criminal elements in the community at large that may attempt to seek me out for retribution for my support of a great sheriff if they were to learn of it"

Except I didn't donate any money to her campaign so obviously I can't use that :rolleyes:

Not to mention there is an outright lie in that statement, you know, the part about our sheriff being great :rofl2: :(

http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-04-30/bay-area/17487611_1_concealed-permit-guns

If Sean Penn, who has been arrested for Domestic Violence can get a CCW, that looks like a "good cause" reason to me.

postal
11-04-2010, 2:59 PM
You did not see immediately where a woman would be fearful in a confrontation with a man who is assaulting her vehicle and that the size disparity is an integral part of that fear.

Further you don't disapprove of someone physically attacking another person for an unintentional action (let's assume you are right that the woman cut the biker off or some other such offense) that they were not even aware of.

I think that these two positions make it pretty clear that any further discussion on this matter with you would be pointless for either party.

First off- what I'm trying to convey... is *WHAT HAPPENED LEADING UP TO THAT CONFRONTATION?*

2nd- Clearly you've never done any Military Service... as my statement of not approving or dissaproving is pretty much the same line everyone in Mil Service learns.....

"I can neither confirm, nor deny (insert whatever here)"

See a difference? I dont- I've been "walking the fence" this entire thread. I refuse to take the OP's side of the story alone as being factual like the rest of you, and sit on the fence wondering what ***REALLY HAPPENED*** We only have one side of the story after all... And I do my best not to judge others. A whole lot of "FAIL" on judging others in this thread- Look at all the people who judged me, and the biker, and automatically sided with the OP- with only one side of the story...

3rd... the events ***LEADING UP TO *** This encounter are very important in my eyes. After all, this is the ONE AND ONLY cited example by the OP as to "WHY SHE WANTS A CCW".

And frankly, the story sounds sketchy for the reasons I mentioned above, that bikers dont behave like that for "no reason".

She stated other reasons that look like "add ons"- (occasional modeling, expensive jewelry) but this story was **THE** reason for her wanting a CCW.

If it was only one several stories, I wouldn't smack it down as hard as I did.

4th- Many times over and over again, I read/hear from people who do have CCW's about how much more aware it makes them. How much more carefull, and how much more "easygoing". It would seem to me, that without definitive information on what occurred leading UP TO this encounter, the OP did something wrong, and took the wrong action to diffuse the situation. Opposite of what I read about all the time from people who have their CCW.

dantodd
11-04-2010, 3:25 PM
I read/hear from people who do have CCW's about how much more aware it makes them. How much more carefull, and how much more "easygoing".

I never understood that argument it is pretty much exactly the same as the argument used by antis that carrying a gun automatically makes one more apt to commit a crime.

Whenever someone makes the antis claim that carrying makes you more likely to commit a crime we cry foul and that the gun carries no special magic that turns law abiding citizens into testosterone raging maniacs yet people are so willing to attribute just the opposite power to a gun and no one blinks an eye.

postal
11-05-2010, 12:34 AM
OK. I'll buy that. But please answer this for me.

I know you have a CCW. You champion people obtaining permits, and have for quite some time. You know better than almost anyone else on this forum what it takes to obtain, and what "proper" behavior is while carrying. I do respect your opinion- and thank you for all your work helping others obtain permits. I really do- Good work.


So I'd like your thoughts on it with our current system of "just cause" being required in most counties.

1- OP possibly was the instigator in this incident. Perhaps without her knowledge, but the instigator none the less (probably)

2- OP not only refused to pull over from a possible hit and run, also chose NOT to diffuse the situation, and make it right. In fact, her actions- if anything, *escalated* the situation.

3- I *assume* (we all know about assumptions-) but I assume the biker was right, and justified all the way up to the point of putting his boot into her fender. Thats the point where the situation turned from him being 100% right. Into being the "bad guy". However, #1, and #2 lead me to believe the OP was the bad guy up until this point.

As someone pointed awhile back..... "2 wrongs dont make a right."

Anyone care to tell me whats "2 wrongs and a gun make?"

Guarantee you, it dont make a right....

As I see it--

OP- wrong for doing "whatever" to the biker with or without her knowledge. OP wrong again for not dealing with the situation and making it right/diffusing it....

Two wrongs, and she wants gun...

Tell me DanTodd. Your gut feeling..... Do you want someone who instigates an incident, then chooses to escalate that incident to have a CCW?

As in my last post- this is NOT the type of behavior I would expect from a CCW holder.

Someone who instigates an incident, then escalates the incident, then pulls a gun.....(wants to pull a gun/wants CCW) Nope.... Not the type of person I think of who has (should have) a CCW....

I firmly believe we need "shall issue". I think trying to prove "just cause" is wrong. Unfortunately however, thats how it is for now in Cali (in most counties) The OP is using this single incident as her "just cause" which personally, as I've pointed out numerous times- I think is full of holes. I dont think anyone "needs" justification for CCW, but her "justification" just doesnt do it for me when justification is required in our current system.

Thoughts?

dantodd
11-05-2010, 1:40 AM
OK. I'll buy that. But please answer this for me.

I know you have a CCW. You champion people obtaining permits, and have for quite some time. You know better than almost anyone else on this forum what it takes to obtain, and what "proper" behavior is while carrying. I do respect your opinion- and thank you for all your work helping others obtain permits. I really do- Good work.


I do not have a CCW permit at this time nor have I ever held a permit in CA or any other state. As long as someone doesn't brandish or assault another person with their carry weapon I don't think there is any particular "proper" behavior for CCWing that is any different than when not carrying. It is just a gun. There is no reason to hold someone who has a CCW to any higher (or lower) standard than any other citizen.


So I'd like your thoughts on it with our current system of "just cause" being required in most counties.

My thoughts are that we need to work on changing the good cause needed to be specifically "self-defense" or "personal protection." If you don't have actual specific threats against your person you shouldn't be applying in non-issuing counties except through the programs that CGF is working to help bring all counties into "shall-issue" status.


1- OP possibly was the instigator in this incident. Perhaps without her knowledge, but the instigator none the less (probably)

2- OP not only refused to pull over from a possible hit and run, also chose NOT to diffuse the situation, and make it right. In fact, her actions- if anything, *escalated* the situation.

3- I *assume* (we all know about assumptions-) but I assume the biker was right, and justified all the way up to the point of putting his boot into her fender. Thats the point where the situation turned from him being 100% right. Into being the "bad guy". However, #1, and #2 lead me to believe the OP was the bad guy up until this point.


We have tried to have reasoned discussion on this previously in this thread and there is no point. You automatically assume 1 and 2 with zero evidence to support those assumptions.


As someone pointed awhile back..... "2 wrongs dont make a right."

Anyone care to tell me whats "2 wrongs and a gun make?"

Guarantee you, it dont make a right....


You are assuming that the OP would have whipped out her piece and shot the biker. Well, she had a much deadlier weapon at her disposal at the time of the incident and she didn't choose to use it. As you know and have repeatedly said throughout this thread, had she intentionally turned her car into a weapon the biker would be dead. So, why do you think a gun would have made the OP more likely to kill the biker than the more dangerous and more readily available weapon she already had?

As I see it--

OP- wrong for doing "whatever" to the biker with or without her knowledge. OP wrong again for not dealing with the situation and making it right/diffusing it....


This gets back to the assumptions that you are making that I am not accepting.


Tell me DanTodd. Your gut feeling..... Do you want someone who instigates an incident, then chooses to escalate that incident to have a CCW?

My gut feeling is that she didn't instigate or escalate.



I firmly believe we need "shall issue". I think trying to prove "just cause" is wrong. Unfortunately however, thats how it is for now in Cali (in most counties) The OP is using this single incident as her "just cause" which personally, as I've pointed out numerous times- I think is full of holes. I dont think anyone "needs" justification for CCW, but her "justification" just doesnt do it for me when justification is required in our current system.


The problem is that there are 58 counties and almost as many standards. If she is an Aero-Sqaudron, mounted posse, or benevolent society member such an incident would definitely be good cause in most counties. If she is just a regular citizen like me then it would be irrelevant.

frankm
11-05-2010, 10:17 AM
Are we waiting on Calguns or should we apply for CCWs?

postal
11-05-2010, 7:01 PM
I do not have a CCW permit at this time nor have I ever held a permit in CA or any other state. As long as someone doesn't brandish or assault another person with their carry weapon I don't think there is any particular "proper" behavior for CCWing that is any different than when not carrying. It is just a gun. There is no reason to hold someone who has a CCW to any higher (or lower) standard than any other citizen.



My bad- I must have got you confused with someone else from the CALCCW forum.

So I guess, in which case, your opionion would not in fact be any more (or less) important than anyone elses on this topic (to me). As I incorrectly thought you were someone else- who would be widely accepted as an expert on the subject.

FYI, its the CALCCW forum where I read over and over again, about how people who do have valid ccw's are much more carefull and less confrontational since obtaining and carrying.... People who actually do have their permit, and do carry, say this all the time on that forum.


I guess we're done.

-----------

Frank.

Right now, it still depends on the county you live in. With a small amount of research, and help from CALCCW, you should be able find out very easily if you have chance to obtain a permit based on the county you live in, and your particular "good cause".

Until the "wall comes down" from CGF telling everyone to apply, for now it's still dependent on your particular county and circumstance.

trailbuster
11-05-2010, 7:30 PM
my only 2cents on this is to recommend that people refrain from putting any GC on here as your GC Statement needs to be yours and yours alone. These are the rules on the CALCCW webpage and would be great advice to follow while on any of our gun related forums.

Gray Peterson
11-05-2010, 7:48 PM
my only 2cents on this is to recommend that people refrain from putting any GC on here as your GC Statement needs to be yours and yours alone. These are the rules on the CALCCW webpage and would be great advice to follow while on any of our gun related forums.

There are clearly times where this is not applicable. First, if Sheriff Smith of Santa Clara County issued purely for "self defense" to anyone with a CCW, that same good cause must be issued to everyone who applies or else it runs afoul of Guillory v. County of Orange.

CalCCW's rules are steeped in old-style fearmongering of the pre-Heller era. We now have the technology to bring forward the good causes to everyone and to all, and expose it to the sunlight. The principals of the CalCCW forum A) Refused to hold Sheriff Carona and then Hutchens accountable for their violations of the Penal Code, Salute v. Pitchess, and Guillory v. County of Orange, and in fact, the primary principal there reportedly helped write Sheriff Carona's unlawful policies with illegal restrictions purely for political cover purposes rather than staying within the law and B) When those of us call upon people to stand up against illegalities by the law enforcement agencies, we are silenced on that forum.

They can live in their world while cowering, a world the sheriff's can make up any requirements they want and somehow bootstrap it to the only discretion that the sheriffs really have, which is good cause, or they can join us and fight for their statutory rights while we're waiting for Richards and Peruta to kill "good cause" and "good moral character".

Make no mistake, The Sheriff's WILL follow the law of the state of California. There is no "or else". WILL!

trailbuster
11-05-2010, 7:53 PM
You made your point .... Big :D

Gray Peterson
11-05-2010, 8:07 PM
You made your point .... Big :D

I had a sheriff who flat out told me over a phone conversation that he would never issue to a non-US Citizen because if he issued to a Canadian he'd have to issue someone from a country that didn't have criminal background records. This despite People v. Rappard. He didn't quite understand that the State Department and the USCIS do very extensively background checking from countries that have no records, and often deny anyone who can't prove that they are not criminal, given that legal immigration is purely a privilege.

This despite being an NRA Endorsed with an A+ rating. I still wished him defeat and worked to educate whoever I knew in that county to vote against him, along with his own shenanigans on various things over the last 4 terms, especially in the last 4 years.

This sheriff was defeated 3 days ago and is being replaced by someone who will not likely enforce such a requirement, and in fact will likely fully comply with the law.

Vlad Tepes has nothing on me......figuratively speaking of course. :D

dantodd
11-05-2010, 8:16 PM
There's plenty of work to do. Gray us doing a ton of work getting the sheriffs in statutory compliance so that when Richards or Peruta are resolved they are ready to follow the law with as little lag time as possible.

SoCalXD
12-26-2010, 4:06 PM
Maybe your good cause reason were better? Just out of curiosity what were they?

Papa J's comment history indicates the following:
1. He allegedly carries cash and valuable product from his business.
2. He used to be a law enforcement officer.
3. He either works or lives in the same zip code as the Sheriff's headquarters (within 2 miles).

I'd like to see the statistics showing how small business owners who deal in cash and merchandise have a higher instance of deadly force being used against them by robbers outside their businesses, which is Sheriff Bill "Ruby Ridge" Gore's justification (and his predecessors) for granting CCWs to business owners, assuming you are also connected (past LEO for Papa J) and have been invited to join the Honorary Deputy Sheriff's Association (a private "Funding" group for the Sheriff's department... absolute corruption going on there).

My take: Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6... I see it as civil disobedience against statist oppressors of our Constitutional and Natural Right of self protection. Obey the traffic laws, don't give LEOs any justified reason/need to pull you over, carry deep cover, be normal, and you stand very little chance of having a problem throughout your lifetime. That's what I've done. I've needed to draw down on two knife wielders over the last 20 years. Lucky, that was sufficient to stop their advance. In that same time, I've used a Taser twice and pepper spray five times. Ya, it kind of sucks to have to carry a full range of weapons, but it's important to have non-lethal options available, since half the time an assault begins without a weapon.
Just my 2 Cents.

1lostinspace
12-26-2010, 4:39 PM
PM sent

IGOTDIRT4U
12-27-2010, 2:57 PM
You probably shouldn't apply for your CCW with this kind of mindset. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you don't seem to "understand" that well enough to be rightfully issued one. Maybe when they research your application, they will come across this thread and realize the repressed anger you carry around. :rolleyes:

+1000. Bad enough he might actually own gun(s). Tip. Say these things in front of mirror and see if you come across as well grounded. To the high standards as a whole we want CCW holders to represent.