View Full Version : Is DOJ source of confusion over laws?

10-28-2010, 4:16 PM
I've heard previously about false information being promulgated by some gun ranges, etc. in the past, but had never experienced anything first hand until today, all because I curious of what I read in an online review was true.

I visited the The Gun Room in Elk Grove (just south of Sacramento today). I had only been there once before and hadn't had a bad experience and am still okay with the place. I had read a post in a Yelp review where someone complained about getting chewed out for coming in with his magazines in the same case as his handgun. To avoid conflict, I had already put my magazines in my ammo bag before driving there. I was already done checking in when I asked the guy about this. He seemed a bit perturbed and asked if I had read this on CalGuns. I grinned and said "no, on an online review I checked to get your address." He said they've never done such a thing, but then said they would have said that if the magazines contained ammunition as it's illegal for ammunition to be locked in the same container as the handgun. I told him that I wasn't there to argue with him but to practice for my CCW qualification this weekend, but that I had read the law and that was not correct. He wasn't disrespectful, but said he knew it was the law and that it was even in the test for the Handgun Safety Certificate. A light bulb went off in my head as I had recalled that being on the test, but I told him that was a safety recommendation but not the law. He told me to go read the sections of the law in the entryway which they have posted in ceiling panels. I went on to do my shooting and did look at the ceiling panels when I was leaving but this was not among the things covered. They only mentioned our obligation to keep handguns out of the hands of people younger than 18 and about the requirement to pick up a handgun within 30 days after DROS (I think).

Anyways, I thought I would bring this up to help explain where a bit of this confusion apparently originates. See item 6 near the top of page 9 at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf which reads:

6. Store your gun safely and securely to prevent unauthorized use.
Guns and ammunition should be stored separately.

I don't plan to be going to this establishment anytime soon, but maybe someone else can print out information from the CHP at http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html which reads:

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.

I realize it's not a high priority for CalGuns, but I wonder if maybe it would be worthwhile to related to the DOJ that they are helping spread a bad understanding of the law.

10-28-2010, 4:51 PM
I would say they sometimes are a source of misinformation.

This is especially true if you call them. You never know what level of training or experience those who answer the phone may have.

Certainly they appear to have no understanding of Federal law regarding interstate transfer. It's true their major concern is California law, but anecdotes here suggest they offer the advice to not use an FFL in some cases where that would be a crime.

Under prior management, I believe much of the obstinate wrong-headedness was policy. I do not know to what degree that may be accurate today.

10-28-2010, 4:58 PM
Do you think it might be getting better after the change in management? Or is there not enough info yet?

10-28-2010, 6:54 PM
I wouldn't say that they are THE source for infomration, but GENERALLY they don't help.

10-28-2010, 7:00 PM
I think guns and ammo SHOULD be stored separately, as in no ammo in the gun safe at home, and ammo locked up as well. That is not the same thing as transporting them together, which is legal.

The DOJ is indeed confused about some of its own rules and laws. When calling them it is good to have the pc open in order to guide them. They don't know everything off the top of their head

10-28-2010, 7:51 PM
The problem is not the DOJ.... The problem is the LEGISLATURE....

Compare the SIZE (Im talking WEIGHT, VOLUME) of the California codes (all 29 volumes) to most of our neighboring States. Our Legislature has passed SO MANY LAWS that NOBODY knows what they are any more...

Secondly... Compare how our laws read to any other state. They are written as a jumble of paragraphs, sub paragraphs, sub- sub paragraphs, sub sub sub paragraphs and so on and so forth, many of which are redundant, or contradictory...

Then add to it all the Court Cases that have defined, interpreted, clarified or invalidated huge swaths of that mess, and you've got a legislative and legal system that is collapsing under its own weight.

10-28-2010, 8:30 PM
I took a required hunter safety training a couple of weeks ago to get my hunting licence and they spent time instructing everyone that the "law" was you must keep the ammo and the gun separated. Not only that but they can not be within reach of each other and on and on.

There were over 50 people in that class, they teach it every month and have been running the class for years.

I went up after the break and asked why they would teach that since it is not CA law. They were pretty resistant to hearing that they are teaching a few hundred gun owners and hunters a year total FUD. I sent the instructor an email explaining the real law with a link to the CalGuns wiki on the subject... with no response.

I would bet that they are just gonna keep teaching what they always have no matter how wrong it is. I did point out to the instructor that CA already has enough bogus gun laws on the books and that they don't need to be adding "laws" that don't exist into the mix. The biggest bummer about the whole deal was the class was 1/3 kids. They will be operating around and passing on that FUD the rest of their lives.

10-28-2010, 8:38 PM
There is no downside for the Cal DOJ and Cal AG to spread FUD and lies.

Having read the law and spent some time reviewing the issues regarding the
XD 45 Bitone, I spent many months going around and around with the State
of California. The State refused to follow its own laws. There was no way
to cause the State to follow its own laws short of a well-prepared lawsuit. I
did not have the money, and could not get the NRA sufficiently inspired to file.

Luckily the CalGuns group filed. By chance they noticed the same problem I had,
but had more legal power and more money.

10-29-2010, 2:18 AM
I spent many months going around and around with the State
of California. The State refused to follow its own laws. There was no way
to cause the State to follow its own laws short of a well-prepared lawsuit. .

All of this right here seems to sum up alot of what CalGuns is fighting for. That and the unconstitutional stuff.

A big one right now is CCW issuance. I'm looking forward to the way some of these play out.

There's a number of things that would be legal if you went by a strict reading of the law, yet have somehow been deemed illegal, and have resulted in prosecution.

There's a few i'd bring up, but i'd be beating a dead horse that doesn't have the money to defend itself, especially since I agree with the prioritization of chopping down these bogus laws.

As always... GO PENA!! and go OOIDA.