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rero360
10-27-2010, 12:00 AM
As we all know silver soldering and pinning then welding the pin head in place are legally accepted methods to permanently attach a muzzle device for barrels less than 16" to bring them up to the legal 16" length.

My question is: What about Loctite? Specifically the Red 271 formula, this is taken directly from their websight:

Loctite Threadlocker Red 271 is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500F (260C).

Looking over their Industrial section, which isn't as user friendly, there seems to be 16 different types of Red Loctite, all being high heat, permanent threadlockers.

Would the Red Loctites pass the legal sniff test in being considered permanent? Granted if given the proper tools one could defeat the Loctite, and probably alittle bit easier than grinding thru the weld to free the pin on a pinned device, but I can't see it being substantially easier.

This would give the DIYers who don't have access to a welder an ability to build a 14.5" upper and affix the brake themselves easily.

dantodd
10-27-2010, 12:05 AM
I am not sure but a DIYer might be in big trouble if they are in possession of a 14.5" upper along with a lower. I believe that would be constructive possession of an SBR.

bwiese
10-27-2010, 12:07 AM
As we all know silver soldering and pinning then welding the pin head in place are legally accepted methods to permanently attach a muzzle device for barrels less than 16" to bring them up to the legal 16" length.

My question is: What about Loctite? Specifically the Red 271 formula, this is taken directly from their websight...

I have great fear that 'something' could happen - problems with application, cracking after multiple thermal cycling, etc. I wonder how well it holds with a breaker bar applied, etc.

Do you really want felony risk at both Fed and state levels to save a few bucks gunsmithing?

The pinned/welded etc. method of affixing a barrel extension passes the test of time and has BATF approval.

When there's felony risk it's best to stick to acknowledged nonproblematic recipes.


This would give the DIYers who don't have access to a welder an ability to build a 14.5" upper and affix the brake themselves easily.I sure as hell hope those DIYers don't already possess a rifle lower or rifle if they have that shorty barrel (and don't already own an AR pistol).

Decoligny
10-27-2010, 8:32 AM
As we all know silver soldering and pinning then welding the pin head in place are legally accepted methods to permanently attach a muzzle device for barrels less than 16" to bring them up to the legal 16" length.

My question is: What about Loctite? Specifically the Red 271 formula, this is taken directly from their websight:

Loctite Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500F (260C).

Looking over their Industrial section, which isn't as user friendly, there seems to be 16 different types of Red Loctite, all being high heat, permanent threadlockers.

Would the Red Loctites pass the legal sniff test in being considered permanent? Granted if given the proper tools one could defeat the Loctite, and probably alittle bit easier than grinding thru the weld to free the pin on a pinned device, but I can't see it being substantially easier.

This would give the DIYers who don't have access to a welder an ability to build a 14.5" upper and affix the brake themselves easily.

500F is nothing. You can achieve that with a handheld propane torch, heck, you could probably reach that temp with a Zippo lighter. Paper ignites at nice cool 451F.

Silver solder works in the 1100F - 1600F range. Significantly harder to reach these temps.

They want it to be virtually impossible to remove once it is attached.

I don't think Red Loctite would cut it on that count.

command_liner
10-27-2010, 8:47 AM
500F is nothing. You can achieve that with a handheld propane torch, heck, you could probably reach that temp with a Zippo lighter. Paper ignites at nice cool 451F.

Silver solder works in the 1100F - 1600F range. Significantly harder to reach these temps.

They want it to be virtually impossible to remove once it is attached.

I don't think Red Loctite would cut it on that count.

With a hand-held propane torch you can both silver solder and
braze weld. Just a few days ago I made new radials for an antenna
using stainless steel tubing and stainless steel bolts. I brazed the
bolts to the tubing using my propane torch. Sure, my torch is
a bit more serious than the $20 torch from Home Depot, but it
is still just a propane/air torch.

Stepping back in time, one can certainly use a charcoal fire to
get REALLY HOT. Sure, it takes a bit of planning, but all you
need is wood, clay and some manual labor.
Remember, the Egyptians were making liquid metals 5000 years ago.

SJgunguy24
10-27-2010, 8:49 AM
Get it welded.

SJgunguy24
10-27-2010, 8:50 AM
With a hand-held propane torch you can both silver solder and
braze weld. Just a few days ago I made new radials for an antenna
using stainless steel tubing and stainless steel bolts. I brazed the
bolts to the tubing using my propane torch. Sure, my torch is
a bit more serious than the $20 torch from Home Depot, but it
is still just a propane/air torch.

Stepping back in time, one can certainly use a charcoal fire to
get REALLY HOT. Sure, it takes a bit of planning, but all you
need is wood, clay and some manual labor.
Remember, the Egyptians were making liquid metals 5000 years ago.

Propane O2 torch is different then just propane. That set up gets close to MAPP gas.

loather
10-27-2010, 9:53 AM
I've defeated red loctite with a cheater bar before. It takes a bit of muscle, but it can definitely be defeated. That said, I use it on my AR muzzle attachments when I want them to be semi-permanent, because i know i can break it if necessary.

rero360
10-27-2010, 11:38 AM
I was just trying to think of out of the box, new solutions, I mean I've heard of countless Remington bolt handles being ripped off, those being silver soldered on.

What really got me thinking about it was the discussion going on about the legalities of different muzzle devices, how some are legal on featureless rifles while others are not, simply because they were not designed and marketed as having flash suppressing capabilities, whether they have them or not.

So here I am thinking, if the design and marketing makes the difference in a legal setting for muzzle brakes and compensators, why not some sort of threadlocking compound? So I looked up Loctite as thats the only type I know of, and low and behold they use the word permanent in their marketing. Granted with the ability of being defeated, but thats the case with welds as well.

Granted this is all purely what if and speculation on my part, just exercising the old noodle.

gun toting monkeyboy
10-27-2010, 11:40 AM
You can just go to home depot and get a MAPP gas torch for what? $20? Why risk a felony?

rero360
10-27-2010, 12:12 PM
Geez guys, whats so wrong with exercising the mind and thinking up potential new solutions to problems.

The way you guys are thinking, we'd still be writing everything by hand, that pesky printing press, why bother with something like that when you can use your own hand and a pen?

See what I'm getting at, if you are satisfied with the current norm and don't look to improve and advance, then society with stall, stagnate and become surpased by others, becoming no longer relevant. Granted the fate of America does not hang on the balance of finding a new method of attaching muzzle devices, but the drive and desire to explore and learn must be there for both.

Edison didn't create the light bulb with the mentality of "these oil lamps and candles are awsome"

freonr22
10-27-2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcalidave
Anyone have a link for it ?

Sure. The section of the NFA handbook you need is here (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf). The other sections are here (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/).

From 2.1.3 Quote:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=249454


BTW, thats the first time I noticed the Apple logo on Lorax's avatar. I just assumed he was a cult member of some secret org

Scotty
10-27-2010, 12:18 PM
If you don't prep the surfaces correctly, red Loctite can be easily removed.

rero360
10-27-2010, 12:28 PM
Ah, but it says methods of attachment include, to me that does not mean the list given after is all inclusive, simply examples of acceptable types.

Look, I don't have the parts and the inclination to actually go this route, or even saying that it is a truely viable alternative path, I'm just saying why not think of additional methods, the more options there are the better in my mind. Thats mostly what this is all about as well, get the mind active, take a problem and think of non standard methods of solving the problem.

Heres another thought, how about the use of a substance that is a solid threadlocker, except when high voltage is passed thru it, then it becomes a semi fluid as long as the current is passing thru, once the electricity stops it becomes a solid again.

(patent pending)

shark92651
10-27-2010, 3:29 PM
Geez guys, whats so wrong with exercising the mind and thinking up potential new solutions to problems.

The way you guys are thinking, we'd still be writing everything by hand, that pesky printing press, why bother with something like that when you can use your own hand and a pen?

See what I'm getting at, if you are satisfied with the current norm and don't look to improve and advance, then society with stall, stagnate and become surpased by others, becoming no longer relevant. Granted the fate of America does not hang on the balance of finding a new method of attaching muzzle devices, but the drive and desire to explore and learn must be there for both.

Edison didn't create the light bulb with the mentality of "these oil lamps and candles are awsome"

There is nothing wrong with thinking up new ideas, as long as those ideas can't land you in jail. I have seen a response letter from the ATF stating that "Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable method for permanently attaching a muzzle device." Sorry, but it's not as simple as applying Loc-tite or Rocksett.

2Bear
10-27-2010, 3:43 PM
500F is nothing. You can achieve that with a handheld propane torch, heck, you could probably reach that temp with a Zippo lighter.


Just pull the trigger real fast for a while and you can unscrew that Red Loctite'd muzzle device...

There was talk of a mfr. who was shipping CA DOJ "approved" Red Loctite'd barrel-length permanent extension firearms to Cali. (Unless I've been mislead.)

Was it Walther USA?

Army
10-27-2010, 5:08 PM
JB Weld!!

ale014
10-27-2010, 5:51 PM
Geez guys, whats so wrong with exercising the mind and thinking up potential new solutions to problems.

The way you guys are thinking, we'd still be writing everything by hand, that pesky printing press, why bother with something like that when you can use your own hand and a pen?

See what I'm getting at, if you are satisfied with the current norm and don't look to improve and advance, then society with stall, stagnate and become surpased by others, becoming no longer relevant. Granted the fate of America does not hang on the balance of finding a new method of attaching muzzle devices, but the drive and desire to explore and learn must be there for both.

Edison didn't create the light bulb with the mentality of "these oil lamps and candles are awsome"

100 % agreed with your 'outside the box' thinking. Keep using that organ between your ears!

also, i think rero360 was merely speculating and not actually use the proposed method, it was just a thought and sincere question; no need to bash. :cool2:

loather
10-27-2010, 6:24 PM
JB Weld!!

I've broken that with a cheater bar as well. In fact, the red loctite was much harder to break.

JB Weld is cool stuff and I've used it in a lot of places, but it won't hold up under pressure.

ETA: And make no mistake - if you get arrested for assault weapon/NFA charges, you had better believe the ATF/DOJ will have their biggest gorrilla mofo jumping up and down on a cheater bar with your barrel in a vise trying to make that thing pop off.

Cokebottle
10-27-2010, 6:42 PM
I've defeated red loctite with a cheater bar before. It takes a bit of muscle, but it can definitely be defeated. That said, I use it on my AR muzzle attachments when I want them to be semi-permanent, because i know i can break it if necessary.
Red Loctite on a lot of parts on my motorcycle.
I'm easily able to pop a 10mm bolt with a 1/2" drive 18" ratchet.

Thread-Lock is nowhere near permanent.

eaglemike
10-27-2010, 6:44 PM
Properly prepared (degreased with a really good solvent and loctite primer applied) high strength, hi-temp loctite is pretty darn strong. I've had fasteners fail before the adhesive gave up. Even so, I'd not go there......

all the best,
Mike

Cokebottle
10-27-2010, 6:45 PM
ETA: And make no mistake - if you get arrested for assault weapon/NFA charges, you had better believe the ATF/DOJ will have their biggest gorrilla mofo jumping up and down on a cheater bar with your barrel in a vise trying to make that thing pop off.
And due to the "color" in the case, expect no assistance from CGF.

They might give you a referral, but they won't directly touch the case.

bwiese
10-27-2010, 7:08 PM
What really got me thinking about it was the discussion going on about the legalities of different muzzle devices, how some are legal on featureless rifles while others are not, simply because they were not designed and marketed as having flash suppressing capabilities, whether they have them or not.

That was the result of poor regulatory definition, California regualtory law and after various depositions & cornering of DOJ employees in the Hunt v. Lockyer litigation.

Any concept of legal 'loosening' should be regarded as only applicable to this specific situation, and only to CA AW law. And even then it's probably still wise to skirt around flash hider matters on featureless rifles, especially given their overally uselessness to most shooters.

I am completely unclear on how you think this specific situation magically extends to a separate body of law, Federal short barrel rifle law (and its CA near-duplicate).



There was talk of a mfr. who was shipping CA DOJ "approved" Red Loctite'd barrel-length permanent extension firearms to Cali. (Unless I've been mislead.)

Was it Walther USA?

Yes - *in that specific instance* it was suitable, per final DOJ agreement/settlement, to retrofit remove AW status from Walther P22.

I will also note that a P22 muzzle probably doesn't get *that* hot.

2Bear
10-27-2010, 7:16 PM
I will also note that a P22 muzzle probably doesn't get *that* hot.

So one will need that Zippo lighter after all... ;)

rero360
10-27-2010, 7:30 PM
ETA: And make no mistake - if you get arrested for assault weapon/NFA charges, you had better believe the ATF/DOJ will have their biggest gorrilla mofo jumping up and down on a cheater bar with your barrel in a vise trying to make that thing pop off.

Ok, here's another question, an individual has a 14.5" barreled rifle with a properly permanently affixed muzzle device, (ignore the whole featureless/not featureless, muzzle brake/flash suppressor stuff at the moment, thats a completely different discussion) some overzelous LEO takes it thinking its an AW/NFA item and they grab their resident gorrilla mofo to attempt to pop off the muzzle device. While attempting to remove the muzzle device said gorrilla mofo damages your perfectly legally configured rifle.

Can you sue for damages and would you stand a chance of winning and getting restitution for the damage caused?

rero360
10-27-2010, 7:39 PM
Additionally, so even though with proper prep work (which is a given and one would have to be an idiot not to do so) the Red Loctite does not quite provide the level of permanency needed from a legal stand point. (And Bwiese, I was merly extrapolating that the two cases could be potentially looked in similar fashion, again why not ask "why not?")

I still want to try and find a method that doesn't involve heat being applied to the barrel. Yes, I know they get hot, I've made Ma Duce barrels glow red from shooting so much, but thats not exactly something I want to do to my own personal rifles.

I may be over thinking it, I do that often, but I would imagine it can't be good for a barrel to introduce heat to one small spot that is substantially higher than would be achieved thru a normal course of fire. metallugically and accuracy speaking anyways.

command_liner
10-27-2010, 9:01 PM
Propane O2 torch is different then just propane. That set up gets close to MAPP gas.

Re-check the wording in my post. I braze with a propane-air
torch. It is a Victor Turbo Torch; the #8 tip works pretty
well.

Yeah, I have a propane-oxygen torch too. That is a wholly
different beast, and puts out lots more heat. If you check my
past posts, you can see where I brazed a 1 3/4" plug inside
some 1 3/4" DOM super-heavy-wall tubing. That required both
torches.

CHS
10-27-2010, 11:36 PM
There is nothing wrong with thinking up new ideas, as long as those ideas can't land you in jail. I have seen a response letter from the ATF stating that "Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable method for permanently attaching a muzzle device." Sorry, but it's not as simple as applying Loc-tite or Rocksett.

^THIS.

The ATF does NOT ACCEPT industrial adhesives for the purpose of permanently attaching muzzle devices to reach 16" BBL OAL.


There was talk of a mfr. who was shipping CA DOJ "approved" Red Loctite'd barrel-length permanent extension firearms to Cali. (Unless I've been mislead.)

Was it Walther USA?

You're confusing a California issue with a Federal issue.

California says it's ok on the Walter P22 pistols to disqualify the guns from being AW's (semi auto pistols with threaded barrels). Since this is on a pistol, Federal law doesn't even enter into the equation, which is the only other reason why you need to worry about attaching muzzle devices in a "permanent" way to barrels.

Dreaded Claymore
10-28-2010, 2:43 AM
Edison didn't create the light bulb with the mentality of "these oil lamps and candles are awsome"

This is sig worthy! Sir, I salute you!

Stevincent
10-29-2010, 4:13 AM
haha... that does sound like a military solution =D

JB Weld!!

Stevincent
10-29-2010, 4:17 AM
where can I go to get my gun soldered and pinned? or whatever? I dont want to do it myself?

CHS
10-29-2010, 9:05 AM
where can I go to get my gun soldered and pinned? or whatever? I dont want to do it myself?

It would help to know what city you're in.

blackbox
10-29-2010, 9:11 AM
adco (http://www.adcofirearms.com/) (Ohio) or http://ar15barrels.com/ (culver city, socal)

Wherryj
10-29-2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcalidave
Anyone have a link for it ?

Sure. The section of the NFA handbook you need is here (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf). The other sections are here (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/).

From 2.1.3 Quote:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=249454


BTW, thats the first time I noticed the Apple logo on Lorax's avatar. I just assumed he was a cult member of some secret org

I guess that he's a cult member of a not-so-secret cult.