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View Full Version : Idea for getting rid of past bad executive orders


AJAX22
10-26-2010, 7:32 PM
I was thinking about the potential shift of power in 2012 (who isn't) and I was griping to myself about the serious presidential failings with regard to executive orders that have been signed into law that directly infringe on commerce in arms.

So, I was thinking.... what if we drafted an open executive order to try and un cluster**** the mismash of bad executive orders which have created the web of restrictions on arms importation etc.

What could we straighten out... barrel importation, non sporting parts? exemptions for import of arms or getting rid of the silly 'you can't import guns from a country because they are on a list of countries you can't export guns to' rule...

The saturday night special import ban?

What else?

Polititians are lazy, if we came up with a doccument that was ready for ink, who knows? maby it would get signed by a conservative president if it was endorsed by the NRA/GOA/2AF/JPFO?

worth a shot in my opinion.

what say you?

1911 Fan
10-26-2010, 8:01 PM
Yeah............who's going to decide what is bad and good then make the decision to reverse.The government? Activist fed judges? Example IMHO .The national health care will not be completely repealed even if it defunded and gutted by balanced power in Washington.That is if we get balanced government in Washington after november.

NovaTodd
10-26-2010, 8:09 PM
It definately can't hurt to try.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 4:26 AM
Yeah............who's going to decide what is bad and good then make the decision to reverse.The government? Activist fed judges? Example IMHO .The national health care will not be completely repealed even if it defunded and gutted by balanced power in Washington.That is if we get balanced government in Washington after november.

The thought would be that by drafting our own attempt at just getting rid of the restrictive firearms regulations that have been implimented and expanded through the executive branch's orders we would have a chance to have a say in what was bad.

Remember we wouldn't be looking to repeal leglislation or anything politicaly complicated, all we would have to do is get one man to sign one piece of paper. which while difficult, is less difficult than getting hundereds of people to sign legislation.

some of the stuff that could be fixed:

During his term, President Clinton also used the power of executive orders to implement gun control policies. On April 6, 1998 Clinton signed an order that permanently banned the importation of more than 50 semiautomatic "assault weapons".[9] In 1999 White House domestic policy chief Bruce D. Reed said, "The country is tired of waiting for Congress to respond to the tragedy in Littleton. The administration is going to do every thing in its power to make progress on guns."[10] In 2001 Clinton also used executive orders to ban the importation of "assault pistols" and tighten licensing rules on gun dealers.[11] Many accused Clinton of overuse of the executive power on gun control issues.

In 1986 Ronald Reagan signed the executive order that no military style firearms could be imported into the US, and that full automatic weapons produced from the day of signing this order could not be sold to civilians. This however did not include silencers.

Clinton had some restrictions of trade with china that limited our ability to get cheap guns.

and the barrel ban of course.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 5:01 AM
Oh, there was an exective order that forbids the sale of military surplus ammunition by the US Military...

so cheap lake city could be had again.

and spare parts etc. for mil surp guns here in the US were banned from sale by executive order.

loather
10-27-2010, 7:44 AM
Let's first concentrate on trying to elect a president that's on our side before asking him to rescind previous XOs. Kind of putting the cart before the horse, you think?

Ideally, we'd be able to nullify any and all executive orders: they're clearly examples of the President making laws (which is the job of the legislature, not the executive).

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 8:11 AM
Let's first concentrate on trying to elect a president that's on our side before asking him to rescind previous XOs. Kind of putting the cart before the horse, you think?

Ideally, we'd be able to nullify any and all executive orders: they're clearly examples of the President making laws (which is the job of the legislature, not the executive).

We don't live in an ideal world, executive orders are here and they aren't going away any time in our children's lifetimes.

The time to get started is ALWAYS now, tomorrow (as Annie said in the musical) is always a day away.

I don't care which president signs it, if it doesn't exist, I can guarantee it won't get signed.

And unless John Wayne rises from the grave and runs for office with chuck Heston as VP, none of our current leadership is going to care enough to draft an EO on something this complex which is perceived as such a non issue.

Just because the O-meister won't sign it doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile.

If you write it, and you can get a couple of pro gun organizations to back it, it will eventually get signed.

just my 2 cents.

AVS
10-27-2010, 8:36 AM
Let's first concentrate on trying to elect a president that's on our side before asking him to rescind previous XOs. Kind of putting the cart before the horse, you think?

Cart before the horse? Hardly. A document such as the one Ajax is discussing would take time to write. He's suggesting we start now, so in two years, when we finally have a pro-2A President back in office, we won't be waiting *another* two years to write something up.

We can focus on both this document as well as electing a president that's on our side. They do not preclude each other.

M1A Rifleman
10-27-2010, 9:24 AM
I don't think there is any mystery to over turning previouse executive orders. I believe new presidents can do this without much thought, but the political fall-out for the party is the worry. However, I see your point on drafting the orders ahead of time to take away any exuse about being too busy.

Why has our NRA not pursued this line of thinking as an attempt to overturn the crap that has been ordered by past presidents?

PatriotnMore
10-27-2010, 9:39 AM
My thoughts on bad Executive orders and other bad legislative laws are, if they are unconstitutional, they are null and void. That's where everyone needs to begin, and I would start with the Patriot Act, and work from there.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 10:52 AM
My thoughts on bad Executive orders and other bad legislative laws are, if they are unconstitutional, they are null and void. That's where everyone needs to begin, and I would start with the Patriot Act, and work from there.

Legislation is much harder politically than a single document that a single individual can sign.

Dealing with it on the grounds of constitutionality is great, but each instance is going to cost you 10 years in the courts and 10's of thousands of dollars to fight.

How about we just nullify it by getting an EO drafted that pulls the stuff that is interfering with our commerce in arms?

Id love to deal with the Patriot act and all the other bull**** thats out there, but how about focusing on stuff that is do-able and which no one else is looking at fixing?

Its not a huge project to do this, just a tedious one, and once its written we can shop it around to pro gun groups (publicly) and ask them to endorse it.

If the NRA and the GOA et all. won't endorse it, I'd LOVE to know why not.

OleCuss
10-27-2010, 11:18 AM
Actually, there's another benefit to developing the language to rescind (or whatever the proper word might be) the previous Executive Orders.

If we present the Executive order and they won't sign it, then we know where they stand on those particular issues - and whether to support them. Also, if they commit to our language in their campaign, then they will likely sign it once they've been elected.

I don't see much of a downside to trying - other than trying to figure out what needs to be zapped and how to properly do the zapping.

I think, however, that it would be wise for us to limit our interest only to those Executive Orders which we believe are impinging directly or indirectly on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

So if there is an EO which sets up procedures which are not specific to RKBA issues but might make it difficult to buy ammo - we zap it. But if I've got a bee in my bonnet about how something affects my ability to buy a TV from Thailand - we leave it alone.

If some of us were to choose to work as a separate group or maybe even with an organization such as the Heritage Foundation on similar projects - that's wonderful. But it is best to keep the efforts somewhat limited in scope in order to maintain their political viability and manageability.

I'm willing to be part of a working group to try to do this, but some consideration should be given to doing this under the auspices of CGF, SAF, and/or the NRA. If it were appropriate, working with the CGF/SAF combo seems to me to be the more viable long-term approach and then enlist the NRA once we have a workable product. My fear is that the NRA would slow everything down too much.

FWIW

Edit: Need to think about the tech for doing this. I don't really want to do it through Google as it's going to be difficult to keep the proper security. But it would be very helpful if multiple individuals could be working in a single database and document with a lawyerly type to sign off on the language before a permanent change is made. Need to be able to annotate so that it is clear why a particular EO is targeted and/or why the particular verbiage is utilized.

So you might say, "Hey, this particular EO is bad for the RKBA and it is effectively the POTUS creating law by edict so we need to zap it entirely. But on another EO you might say, "This is an EO which is a directive to an agency of government controlled by POTUS establishing procedures rather than law - so we'll modify the EO but not zap it entirely or we'll zap it and put in place alternative and fully constitutional language."

nicki
10-27-2010, 11:24 AM
Executive orders are not a right/left issue. What they represent is a breakdown of our checks and balance system.

The Executive branch of the government is supposed to execute laws, not make them. That is the role of the legislative branch and I am sure many in Congress on both sides of the isle don't like the idea of a President being able to bypass the legislative process with executive orders.

Executive orders effectively allow a president to be a "dictator" because he writes them and they have the force of law behind them.

To change things will require is a Constitutional Amendment and while it is not impossible, it is a difficult task.

I believe that an outright ban on executive orders wouldn't pass, but I do believe significant restrictions and oversight would.

Nicki

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 11:29 AM
Actually, there's another benefit to developing the language to rescind (or whatever the proper word might be) the previous Executive Orders.

If we present the Executive order and they won't sign it, then we know where they stand on those particular issues - and whether to support them. Also, if they commit to our language in their campaign, then they will likely sign it once they've been elected.

I don't see much of a downside to trying - other than trying to figure out what needs to be zapped and how to properly do the zapping.

I think, however, that it would be wise for us to limit our interest only to those Executive Orders which we believe are impinging directly or indirectly on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

So if there is an EO which sets up procedures which are not specific to RKBA issues but might make it difficult to buy ammo - we zap it. But if I've got a bee in my bonnet about how something affects my ability to buy a TV from Thailand - we leave it alone.

If some of us were to choose to work as a separate group or maybe even with an organization such as the Heritage Foundation on similar projects - that's wonderful. But it is best to keep the efforts somewhat limited in scope in order to maintain their political viability and manageability.

I'm willing to be part of a working group to try to do this, but some consideration should be given to doing this under the auspices of CGF, SAF, and/or the NRA. If it were appropriate, working with the CGF/SAF combo seems to me to be the more viable long-term approach and then enlist the NRA once we have a workable product. My fear is that the NRA would slow everything down too much.

FWIW

I agree with this 100% (with the caveat that we need to zap portions of the tv from thailand bill if it also includes an ammo ban, amending it to remove the ammo provision)

We wouldn't be after total repeal of everything that contains bad languages, just the RKBA parts of the bad bills i.e. that which restricts guns, ammo, parts, accessories, international transport restrictions on firearms etc.

I think if we got togeather the right handful of guys, made up a googledoc spreadsheet and then assigned pairs of individuals to go through and read each executive order looking for anyting RKBA or import/export related we could get a rough list cobbled togeather pretty quickly.

I don't see any funding being needed for this type of endeavour, just a little organization and a lot of time/elbowgrease. (possibly some in kind donation of legal expertise once its roughed out down the road... but thats not immediate)

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Executive orders are not a right/left issue. What they represent is a breakdown of our checks and balance system.

The Executive branch of the government is supposed to execute laws, not make them. That is the role of the legislative branch and I am sure many in Congress on both sides of the isle don't like the idea of a President being able to bypass the legislative process with executive orders.

Executive orders effectively allow a president to be a "dictator" because he writes them and they have the force of law behind them.

To change things will require is a Constitutional Amendment and while it is not impossible, it is a difficult task.

I believe that an outright ban on executive orders wouldn't pass, but I do believe significant restrictions and oversight would.

Nicki

I agree (although there may be some constitutional issues), but I'm not above using them to undue the damage that they've been used to inflict on the 2A community.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 12:28 PM
One clear and easy section would be to define 'suitable or readily adaptable for sporting purposes' as any firearm which is fully automatic, since any other firearm could be adapted to a different configuration.

Also it could clarify that parts are only banned from import if there is no POSSIBLE secondary use for then, and a paperweight could be a good use for them.

OleCuss
10-27-2010, 12:31 PM
I agree with this 100% (with the caveat that we need to zap portions of the tv from thailand bill if it also includes an ammo ban, amending it to remove the ammo provision)

We wouldn't be after total repeal of everything that contains bad languages, just the RKBA parts of the bad bills i.e. that which restricts guns, ammo, parts, accessories, international transport restrictions on firearms etc.

I think if we got togeather the right handful of guys, made up a googledoc spreadsheet and then assigned pairs of individuals to go through and read each executive order looking for anyting RKBA or import/export related we could get a rough list cobbled togeather pretty quickly.

I don't see any funding being needed for this type of endeavour, just a little organization and a lot of time/elbowgrease. (possibly some in kind donation of legal expertise once its roughed out down the road... but thats not immediate)

I think you're pretty much nailing it in terms of the type of zapping to be done.

I'm much more interested, however, in setting up several documents. I've not yet even tried to model out what must be, but very roughly at the moment:

1. A document (word processor type) which would contain actual proposed language which a new POTUS could sign. Annotations so that people could understand the logic behind each part of that document.

2. A database (maybe a spreadsheet would work, but a database has great flexibility) which would (at a minimum) be indexed to each and every executive order by number. Each record would also contain the date it was signed and by whom, a PDF or similar file containing a copy of that EO, and an assessment of whether or not it meets our criteria for complete zapping or for modification (offhand recommend categories for "clearly needs to be zapped", "don't zap", "might need to be zapped", and "needs to be reworked"). There would be something to indicate who the primary reviewer was and also who else has reviewed the EO and whether they agree with the assessment. The final assessment as to zap or not could be done by multi-voting and review (multi-voting being enough to decide not to zap but decision to zap or modify might require review by a lawyerly type).

3. Ideally link both the document and the database so that most of the work is done in the database but is reflected in the word processor document (but sometimes vice versa). The reason for this is that I suspect there will be a lot of EO's to go through and if the final product and the database are not linked you won't end up with a product which fully reflects the decisions made in the process of the reviews documented in the database.

This is an immense project in some regards and if it is not highly structured it will be quite unmanageable.

Also, we probably should check with the NRA, the Heritage Foundation, and other organizations to see if they have already assessed a bunch of the EO's in a manner which might be relevant. I seriously doubt they have. . . But contacting an organization which represents importers, another which represents manufacturers, etc. just might let us know which are the most offensive of the EO's.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 12:57 PM
Hmmmm

Multiple user accessible databases typically require infrastructure and skilled personell to set them up.

I don't know of any free ones that we could access (hence my idea for using a spreadsheet)

It would be nice to have a digital copy on file of each eo but we could accomplish that by uploading them publically to googledocs and having a link in the spreadsheet.

99% of the bills will not have anything to do with the arms trade, so including a sumaty etc. Might be overkill... If we just have a list of them, and have a team of two to three guys sign up in teams to review them. (perhaps have a standing $50 bet if one of the guys clears an eo that does cover guns then he has to pay the guy who catches it? Or something like that. Should keep people on their toes and catch all of them?

Data systems are not my area of expertise... So I'll defer to the experts, but I think we could easily do this over a 2 year period with 10 guys and a decent organizational structure.

OleCuss
10-27-2010, 1:13 PM
I agree that it can be done - and done pretty well.

But I think that OpenOffice.org software might actually link things well enough. I've not yet tried to do that, however. The server would be the issue - and that's where using Google documents would be convenient since they act as the server.

I'd recommend taking a little while to explore the tech that may be available to us before committing to one particular set of software or to a particular site.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 1:33 PM
hopefully one of our resident computer whiz kids will come across this thread and chime in.

I'll have to check out openoffice... I've been out of the geek trade for a very long time.

OleCuss
10-27-2010, 1:48 PM
Openoffice.org is freeware. Not designed for use over the internet, but if one set up an old Linux box as a server and could run OpenOffice on that you might have a secure way of getting the desired functionality.

IIRC, OpenOffice is designed to use a single document type and you then use the word processor on it if that is what you need, the database if that is what you need, the presentation software if you want that, etc. So far I've only played with the word processor - and it is fairly competent.

I'd have to explore it myself before I would be sure it would work.

Edit: Forgot to mention. You can actually get somewhat stripped down version that you can put on a USB stick and run OpenOffice off the stick on almost any machine. Pretty cool for certain purposes (set that up for my wife years ago).

Matt C
10-27-2010, 1:59 PM
John Wayne rises from the grave and runs for office with chuck Heston as VP
Dude, you had that dream last night too!?!?

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 2:03 PM
Dude, you had that dream last night too!?!?

And you were there, and you were there, and you were there ;)

Peter.Steele
10-27-2010, 2:29 PM
OpenOffice looks and acts more or less like Office 97 did back in the day, with the exception of their database, which just flat out sucks in all possible ways and formats that you can imagine. I don't think the vocabulary exists in any language to describe how awful it is, and how thoroughly and completely hate it.

The WP and spreadsheet software are pretty good, with the exception of the table of contents functionality in Writer. That's pretty worthless.

Google Docs isn't too bad, really. The only real big problem there is that the formatting stuff won't transfer over very well - any complicated formatting that you do in Excel or OpenOffice Calc will be lost when you upload to Google Docs.

AJAX22
10-27-2010, 2:40 PM
Formatting shouldn't be a problem if we're creating the documents in google itself... only if we're uploading.

And we're not looking to do any dynamic formatting (this isn't a case study)

All my experience database wise is through access.

choprzrul
10-27-2010, 3:11 PM
...um, why not do a blanket delete on ALL previous Executive Orders, and then start from scratch? Why not have SCOTUS rule on the constitutionality of this type of presidential power? Seems to me that the founders would twist a gut and have a tizzy fit if they seen this happening.

Exactly what is the difference between an executive order and a declaration by a monarch?

--rant over--

Again, Ajax is thinking outside the box in ways that I truly admire.

I think that what you are looking for is a collaboration tool. Here is PC magazines review of 15 free ones: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/200835/15_free_online_collaboration_tools_for_business.ht ml

Hope this helps.

.

madmike
10-27-2010, 3:31 PM
Sounds super interesting. Let me know if you need help. I'm good at data entry, reading, underlining, and making notes. I don't have any experience with this stuff, but it sounds like fun.

-madmike.

Peter.Steele
10-27-2010, 3:45 PM
Formatting shouldn't be a problem if we're creating the documents in google itself... only if we're uploading.

And we're not looking to do any dynamic formatting (this isn't a case study)

All my experience database wise is through access.


I used to be a fair hand with Filemaker Pro, but that was years ago. I could pick it up again if need be. I don't have access to Access, at the moment. I only sprang for Office Home and Student. :o

N6ATF
10-27-2010, 4:45 PM
And you were there, and you were there, and you were there ;)

HAHA

I thought my dream last night of shredding violin with this anime band (http://www.usagi.org/doi/seiyuu/groups/sakura-k-on.html) was super special awesome, but it just got topped.

AJAX22
10-28-2010, 1:01 PM
well.... it looks like this is do-able.. and from a cursory examination we can get rid of a LOT of the sporting purposes language (probably for everything but machine guns)

so, I guess we'll see about getting together a group of guys, and getting cranking on this.

Probably need a mix of people with good reading/data entry skills, some lawyers/law students/people who know how to use and have access to lexis nexes, and possibly some task master/office manager/project manager types to keep everyone on task and organized.

I would ideally like to organize it under the banner of the foundation that we are starting up for the Montana project (as a much lower priority goal) so that if something comes up where we need to cut a check/apply for a grant/ etc. we can do it.... and this type of activity is not inconsistent with the goals of the foundation so long as it doesn't take away resources or manpower from the other endeavors.