View Full Version : From Volokh: reasons you can be denied shotgun/rifle in NY

10-26-2010, 1:48 PM
Those poor bastards in NY have it even worse than here. Perhaps b/c there isn't a nyguns.net?


Here’s what the proposed rules say, in relevant part:
§ 3–03 Grounds for Denial of Permit. An application for a rifle/shotgun permit may be denied [if] for lack of good moral character or other good cause, pursuant to section 10–303 of the Administrative Code, based on the following reasons:
(a) The applicant has been arrested, indicted or convicted for [any] a crime or violation except minor traffic violations, in any [jurisdiction,] federal, state or local jurisdiction....

(g) The applicant has a history of one or more incidents of domestic violence [note that this doesn’t require a conviction or even a finding by a court by a preponderance of the evidence, just presumably the administrative officials’ own evaluation –EV].

(h) The applicant has a poor driving history, has multiple driver license suspensions or has been declared a scofflaw by the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles....

(j) The applicant has been terminated from employment under circumstances that demonstrate lack of good judgment or lack of good moral character.

(k) The applicant has demonstrated an inability to safely store firearms, such as through a history of lost/stolen firearms.

(l) The applicant has failed to pay legally required debts such as child support, taxes, fines or penalties imposed by governmental authorities....

(n) Other information demonstrates an unwillingness to abide by the law, a lack of candor towards lawful authorities, a lack of concern for the safety of oneself and/or other persons and/or for public safety, and/or other good cause for the denial of the permit.

In evaluating incidents or circumstances pursuant to this section, the License Division shall consider all relevant factors, including but not limited to the number, recency and severity of incidents and the outcome of any judicial or administrative proceedings.

Whatever power the government might have to ban gun possession by felons, violent misdemeanants, people subject to restraining orders, and so on (see this article, PDF pp. 51–73 for some thoughts on that), surely some of these categories go way too far.

Thanks to James Gibson, who pointed me to the Fox News story that reported on this. Incidentally, the story quotes Paul Helmke of the Brady Campaign saying,
Child support, taxes, fines and governmental penalties I think are legitimate things. Basically, if someone’s not complying with what the government requires of somebody, that’s usually a sign that you can’t trust them to follow the rules with something like a gun.
Whatever arguments there might be for denying a person the right to keep and bear arms in some situations — and I have to acknowledge that the Supreme Court and other courts have allowed some such denials — I think a connection as weak and indirect as Mr. Helmke’s can’t suffice where a constitutional right is at stake.

10-26-2010, 1:51 PM
Is 'lack of candor towards lawful authorities' clarified?

Pretty sure that's unconstitutional

10-26-2010, 1:55 PM
I posted what I got. I didn't read the linked-to PDF however, perhaps it has more info: http://law.ucla.edu/volokh/2am.pdf

10-26-2010, 1:58 PM
Is 'lack of candor towards lawful authorities' clarified?

Pretty sure that's unconstitutional

Yeah....that's what I thought. so basically if you choose to exercise your 5A rights then you'll be denied your 2A rights.

Would love to hear them justify that one.

And to think....these laws are from the states that first went to war with England to establish this nation and free us from tyranny.


10-26-2010, 2:08 PM
Is 'lack of candor towards lawful authorities' clarified?

Pretty sure that's unconstitutional

That means if you belong to the Tea Party.

10-26-2010, 3:36 PM
Been there, done that...


10-26-2010, 3:39 PM
Been there, done that...



I'll be applying for my permit to carry concealed (or hell, to even own a gun) here come the first of january or so.

I'll be sure to post up my rejection notice.

And If I don't have good cause, then NO ONE has good cause.

10-26-2010, 4:30 PM
Those poor bastards in NY have it even worse than here. Perhaps b/c there isn't a nyguns.net?We do have it, actually: http://www.nyshooters.net. However, we just got started as of last year and it's been a very slow going process so far. The problem is that we're even further disadvantaged because the antis started here first with the Sullivan Law in 1911 and the political structure has been locked up like CA's but longer, since before 1900. This has beaten down those who would be fiery pro-gun and/or had them flee the state. People have been so used to losing it has created a negative vibe and passive/submissive outlook that's proving VERY hard to reach through. NYC's bullied other counties and people really badly. An incompetent and possibly complicit Republican party, gerrymandering, and unions are every bit the problem as they are in CA, and again made worse b/c of the earlier head start. It is only now we're even getting a spark of initiative to fight.