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moleculo
10-25-2010, 12:20 PM
In Section 4 of the Standard CCW App, it says:

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not,when carrying a concealed weapon:
Consume any alcoholic beverage.
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site
consumption.



Ethics issues aside, is this restriction on alcohol while CCWing part of the Penal Code, or something that the DOJ just tacked on the form?

P.S. It would be nice if the PDF forums posted in the CCW sections had copy text function enabled to make it easier to discuss and quote from.

Gray Peterson
10-25-2010, 12:44 PM
In Section 4 of the Standard CCW App, it says:



Ethics issues aside, is this restriction on alcohol while CCWing part of the Penal Code, or something that the DOJ just tacked on the form?

P.S. It would be nice if the PDF forums posted in the CCW sections had copy text function enabled to make it easier to discuss and quote from.

In 1999, the California Department of Justice's Firearms Division Director, along with the California Sheriff's Association and the California Police Chiefs Association, made up this form and made it the statewide standard form.

When 2/3rds of the "committee" is made up of the people who abused people's civil rights as a matter of form, stuff like this happens.

HowardW56
10-25-2010, 12:49 PM
In 1999, the California Department of Justice's Firearms Division Director, along with the California Sheriff's Association and the California Police Chiefs Association, made up this form and made it the statewide standard form.

When 2/3rds of the "committee" is made up of the people who abused people's civil rights as a matter of form, stuff like this happens.

Does that make it an underground regulation?

dantodd
10-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Does that make it an underground regulation?

As far as I can find there is no such statutory restriction and if the restriction is to apply it must be so noted on your permit. The issuing authority can choose to include or exclude any "reasonable" restriction

12050(b) A license may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions which the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under which the person may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. (c) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be indicated on any license issued.

Gray Peterson
10-25-2010, 1:00 PM
Does that make it an underground regulation?

It was, and it did. Then in 2003 when Jim March called DOJ to the carpet on it, the Legislature passed a bill to make it expressly a local form, exempting it from APA.

Now, does the bill cure the defective creation of the form? I don't know yet. Also, the form is violative of another provision of law, regardless of whether or not it's local.

moleculo
10-25-2010, 1:07 PM
So, lets say someone was fortunate enough to get a CCW in say Los Angeles County (good luck!) and a cop happened to see him printing his concealed gun while he was enjoying a beer with his dinner and family in Applebees. The cop knows that the permit says you can't carry while in a place that serves alcohol and files a report, resulting in the CCW getting revoked. Is this action a cause for lawsuit or is our fictitious individual SOL?

hoffmang
10-25-2010, 1:10 PM
It is an underground regulation, but the form is excluded from the APA. The most that can happen is that the permit could be revoked, but even that will have legal challenges as it becomes clear that one has a right to have the permit.

That said, reasonable alcohol restrictions on carrying are likely to be constitutional.

-Gene

Untamed1972
10-25-2010, 1:10 PM
So, lets say someone was fortunate enough to get a CCW in say Los Angeles County (good luck!) and a cop happened to see him printing his concealed gun while he was enjoying a beer with his dinner and family in Applebees. The cop knows that the permit says you can't carry while in a place that serves alcohol and files a report, resulting in the CCW getting revoked. Is this action a cause for lawsuit or is our fictitious individual SOL?

"Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption."

I dont think an Applebee's would qualify as a pace whose PRIMARY purpose is dipensing alcohol. But the fact that the person was actually consuming while carrying would be another issue.

wildhawker
10-25-2010, 1:10 PM
So, lets say someone was fortunate enough to get a CCW in say Los Angeles County (good luck!) and a cop happened to see him printing his concealed gun while he was enjoying a beer with his dinner and family in Applebees. The cop knows that the permit says you can't carry while in a place that serves alcohol and files a report, resulting in the CCW getting revoked. Is this action a cause for lawsuit or is our fictitious individual SOL?

I would want that person to email us at ccw@calgunsfoundation.org.

-Brandon

AMDG
10-25-2010, 1:16 PM
Perhaps CGF should create a legal form CCW application (based on the original DOJ application) that they could propose (shove down the throats of) all counties use.

dantodd
10-25-2010, 1:19 PM
So, lets say someone was fortunate enough to get a CCW in say Los Angeles County (good luck!) and a cop happened to see him printing his concealed gun while he was enjoying a beer with his dinner and family in Applebees. The cop knows that the permit says you can't carry while in a place that serves alcohol and files a report, resulting in the CCW getting revoked. Is this action a cause for lawsuit or is our fictitious individual SOL?

As the law stands now if the restriction is actually printed on the permit he may well be SOL. If it is not printed on his permit he might get it back but it would likely only cause the issuing agency to print the restriction on all permits upon renewal. The legislature is unlikely to help us out by specifically saying that such restrictions are unlawful and the courts may well see such restrictions as valid TMP limits. I think we might ultimately have a case (it disarms you going to and from such establishments and places an undue burden on exercising the right, after all even driving you can do until you get to .08% BAC) but that would be down the road.

wildhawker
10-25-2010, 1:20 PM
Perhaps CGF should create a legal form CCW application (based on the original DOJ application) that they could propose (shove down the throats of) all counties use.

;) http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=353890


Lots of issues in there... let's get to work!

We'd like to:

a) analyze the form for errors, redundancies and illegal requirements, and
b) create an alternative which complies with the law.

Fillable PDF here (http://calgunsfoundation.org/downloads/documents/DOJ_CCW_App_Fillable.pdf).

AMDG
10-25-2010, 1:30 PM
Beautiful.

moleculo
10-25-2010, 1:32 PM
I think we might ultimately have a case (it disarms you going to and from such establishments and places an undue burden on exercising the right, after all even driving you can do until you get to .08% BAC) but that would be down the road.

Yeah, you see where I'm going with this, although I agree that it would probably be way down the road. From a practical standpoint, it does make a CCW seem pretty pointless if you can't even exercise that option when responsibly enjoying dinner with your family, especially if where you are doing it is in a big, urban environment. But I'm preaching to the choir...

berto
10-25-2010, 1:34 PM
I have no problem abstaining from consuming alcoholic beverages while carrying but I'd like to know how one determines if one is at "a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption".

Joe's Bar likely qualifies. What about Joe's Bar and Grill? Or Joe's Nightclub? What if Joe's Nightclub charges a cover and has dancing or live music?

Untamed1972
10-25-2010, 1:40 PM
How does one determine if one is at "a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption".

Joe's Bar likely qualifies. What about Joe's Bar and Grill? Or Joe's Nightclub which charges a cover for dancing or live entertainment?

Well I think a good place to start would be if there is a sign on the door that says "Must be at least 21yrs of age to enter".....then it's a place whose primary purpose is the dispensing of alcohol. If it's a true resturant or "bar & grill" then it will not likely have age restricted access, so you'd be on much safer ground.

moleculo
10-25-2010, 1:45 PM
Well I think a good place to start would be if there is a sign on the door that says "Must be at least 21yrs of age to enter".....then it's a place whose primary purpose is the dispensing of alcohol. If it's a true resturant or "bar & grill" then it will not likely have age restricted access, so you'd be on much safer ground.

I have no problem abstaining from consuming alcoholic beverages while carrying but I'd like to know how one determines if one is at "a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption".

Joe's Bar likely qualifies. What about Joe's Bar and Grill? Or Joe's Nightclub? What if Joe's Nightclub charges a cover and has dancing or live music?


It's not that simple. In my Applebees example: They dont' allow minors to sit at the bar, but they do at the tables around the bar. So if I'm sitting at the bar drinking a coke, I'm at the place within the establishment whose primary purpose is serving alcohol, but if I'm 5 feet away, I'm not? See how retarded this gets very quickly?

Untamed1972
10-25-2010, 2:09 PM
It's not that simple. In my Applebees example: They dont' allow minors to sit at the bar, but they do at the tables around the bar. So if I'm sitting at the bar drinking a coke, I'm at the place within the establishment whose primary purpose is serving alcohol, but if I'm 5 feet away, I'm not? See how retarded this gets very quickly?

Yes, I agree. I was just giving an example of where a good place to start was if one was unsure.

If they dont allow minors at the bar, then dont sit at the bar while your CC'ing if you want to be safe.

wellerjohn
10-25-2010, 6:13 PM
It is an underground regulation, but the form is excluded from the APA. The most that can happen is that the permit could be revoked, but even that will have legal challenges as it becomes clear that one has a right to have the permit.

That said, reasonable alcohol restrictions on carrying are likely to be constitutional.

-Gene

Is their a list of counties that do and do not require it?

Cokebottle
10-25-2010, 6:46 PM
Perhaps CGF should create a legal form CCW application (based on the original DOJ application) that they could propose (shove down the throats of) all counties use.
Just base it on the BATFE 4473.

Name, address, and answer 5-10 basic questions.