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View Full Version : What would the result be if you didn't surrender your CA legal weapon?


Greg-Dawg
10-25-2010, 7:25 AM
After reading about the Dept. Fish & Game taking a Calgunner's hunting AR with bullet button (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=353805&page=3), what would happen if he didn't surrender his AR?

It would've saved him the 10 hour drive, but would the DFG take him into custody?

GrizzlyGuy
10-25-2010, 7:48 AM
Yes, a game warden is a LEO with the same arrest powers as any other LEO. He could have been arrested for possession of an illegal assault weapon (even though it was really legal) and possibly 148 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/148.html) (delaying or obstructing a LEO).

edwardm
10-25-2010, 8:03 AM
After reading about the Dept. Fish & Game taking a Calgunner's hunting AR with bullet button (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=353805&page=3), what would happen if he didn't surrender his AR?

It would've saved him the 10 hour drive, but would the DFG take him into custody?

In the least, he'd probably end up on the business end of a taser or pepper spray, at worst, he'd end up with a tombstone and a nice inscription to go with it.

Greg-Dawg
10-25-2010, 8:42 AM
But where do you draw the line of LEOs lack of info?

Rhythm of Life
10-25-2010, 8:45 AM
But where do you draw the line of LEOs lack of info?

You don't. Not publicly .... too touchy.

Paul E
10-25-2010, 8:49 AM
You're better off arguing it in court, not in the forest.

That way you dont risk additional charges, and injury/death.

He got his AR back, at the end of the day thats what matters. If he's (or within the hypo - you're) still unhappy with the outcome, theres additional measures he can legally take.

Untamed1972
10-25-2010, 9:09 AM
You could insist that he call out a supervisor or a local sheriff's deputy to the scene. That's prolly about it unless you wanna risk some SHTF in the woods with most outcomes prolly not working out that well for you.

I hope the OP in that thread does file some kind of complaint because that's the only way those guys are gonna learn. Making those kinds of mistakes have gotta start to hurt....and hurt bad.

Cali-Shooter
10-25-2010, 9:11 AM
You're better off arguing it in court, not in the forest.

That way you dont risk additional charges, and injury/death.

He got his AR back, at the end of the day thats what matters. If he's (or within the hypo - you're) still unhappy with the outcome, theres additional measures he can legally take.

Damn right he should take legal action. Those jackboots in Sac need to realize that there are consequences for disobeying their OWN draconian gun laws, why should any quarter be spared if they mess up on enforcing the same sh##ty laws they passed?
I hope the guy who got his AR confiscated wins a lawsuit and manages to sue a pretty penny out of the CA idiot gubbermint.

J-cat
10-25-2010, 9:16 AM
Costco sells these little pen cameras that record video and sound. The image quality is excellent. Let DFG take the gun. Don't get your arsch kicked. It's not worth it.

Greg-Dawg
10-25-2010, 9:50 AM
So the dialogue would be:

LEO: You're going to have to turn that in.
Calgunner: Here you go, be gentle with it and I'll see you in court.

Costco sells these little pen cameras that record video and sound. The image quality is excellent. Let DFG take the gun. Don't get your arsch kicked. It's not worth it.

I'll have to check one out.

glockman19
10-25-2010, 10:36 AM
Costco sells these little pen cameras that record video and sound. The image quality is excellent. Let DFG take the gun. Don't get your arsch kicked. It's not worth it.

I just bought one. Not a good a video as the I-Kan Xtreme video glasses.

The pen cam is only $59 at costco.com and the glasses were $159.

jl123
10-25-2010, 11:05 AM
Odds of instant death sentence sans trial go up exponentially. Then the flowery language in the report makes you look like a crazed homicidal maniac.

edwardm
10-25-2010, 11:15 AM
You could insist that he call out a supervisor or a local sheriff's deputy to the scene. That's prolly about it unless you wanna risk some SHTF in the woods with most outcomes prolly not working out that well for you.

I hope the OP in that thread does file some kind of complaint because that's the only way those guys are gonna learn. Making those kinds of mistakes have gotta start to hurt....and hurt bad.

Indeed. Don't spend your life cheap. This is not the kind of situation that mandates doing so. There are other cases which may necessitate that risk, but this is not one of them. You're not standing up against tyranny in this case, just Plain Ol' Stupidity.

I can think of much better causes for which to bleed out on a pile of hot brass.

Paul S
10-25-2010, 3:32 PM
But where do you draw the line of LEOs lack of info?

Many LEO's will simply arrest first, confiscate the weapon in question and let someone else sort things out. It is very common. It seldom results in a false arrest suit (even though it might well be justified) because who has that kind of money? Not many of us.
Is it wrong...YES INDEED.
Does it happen...YES INDEED
Is it fair? NO

CavTrooper
10-25-2010, 3:50 PM
Still waiting for the CGF word on the confiscation and return by DFG.

ZombieTactics
10-25-2010, 4:11 PM
We need to work towards an environment where this "you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" crap ends.

choprzrul
10-25-2010, 4:32 PM
We need to work towards an environment where this "you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride" crap ends.

I predict this will happen as soon as the job description is once again defined as:

public servant

-not-

public served



.

scarville
10-25-2010, 4:36 PM
But where do you draw the line of LEOs lack of info?
Which is the line that is worth dying over?

Munk
10-25-2010, 4:49 PM
Which is the line that is worth dying over?

There are non-violent forms of resistance. Such as sitting on your locked gun-case. Or locking the vehicle and denying them access... Forcing them into a wrongful arrest or property damage.

Nobody said he'd be gunning down the cops for attempting to illegally sieze his property (and in the process getting shot himself).

Bhobbs
10-25-2010, 5:27 PM
The way you end it is to sue the department and officers until the lack of funds hurts them. Infringing your rights doesn't bother them but losing dollars will.

choprzrul
10-25-2010, 5:52 PM
In the event of a civil rights violation and subsequent civil suit found in favor of the citizen; the very first thing the courts should go after is the pension of the violator. Simply change the name of the pension's beneficiary to the person who had their rights violated.

I think that you would be amazed at how quickly civil rights violations would drop to near zero...

.

M14 Junkie
10-25-2010, 5:57 PM
Many LEO's will simply arrest first, confiscate the weapon in question and let someone else sort things out. It is very common. It seldom results in a false arrest suit (even though it might well be justified) because who has that kind of money? Not many of us.
Is it wrong...YES INDEED.
Does it happen...YES INDEED
Is it fair? NO

You might also add;

ALWAYS COMPLY with what an LEO is ordering you to do. IF you resist a LAWFUL order from any LEO, you just changed your innocence into a criminal act.

You just have to "bite it" and sort things out later in the fashion that the Judicial System says it has to happen. That's a fact. And NO, it ain't fair, just the way the it is.

Ford8N
10-25-2010, 6:11 PM
What would happen if you disobey "the Man"? You are on the ground then stuffed in the car on your way to be booked. Even if you are in the right, "flowery language" will be put in the arrest report and it will cost you mega dollars to clear your name and get your legal firearm returned. Until we get something in writing from the DOJ that OLL are legal, these types of stories will continue to show up on these forums. So just avoid "the Man" if you are with a "scary looking" firearm.

reefer_bob
10-25-2010, 7:09 PM
What about saying either you can take me and my gun or you take nothing.

This of course assumes you have provided sufficent details as to why your rifle is perfect legal...

negolien
10-25-2010, 7:21 PM
Well the term jack booted thugs leads me to believe this threads worthless. Change the Legislature or man up and put on a uniform /shrug. I' am sure you could do a much better job alone out in the forest dealing with armed people and a 10 foot thick book of regulations and laws.

Arondos
10-26-2010, 12:06 AM
I was back in Ohio while still active duty to deer hunt with my Dad. Got a buck opening morning, tagged it and was back in camp. Fish & Game pulls in. Guy gets out of the truck. Just the way he got out and looked around exuded attitude.

He goes over to the deer, checks each is properly tagged. The asks which deer belongs to which hunter. I guess me being the youngest in the group (38 at the time) he decided I would be the best to ask for my license. Exchange went something along the lines of.

GW "I need to check your hunting license."

Me "I don't have one."

GW "What? You have a tagged deer and no license?"

Me "That is correct. I am active duty, I have an Ohio driver's license and leave papers. I am not required to purchase a hunting license. BUT I have to purchase a deer tag to deer hunt or duck stamp to duck hunt."

GW "That's not true.

Me "It is. Please check your regs."

GW "I just told you it isn't. You realize I can take your deer and cite you?"

Me "OK. I will say it one more time. I am completely legal. You need to check your code, or call your boss. I flew 2500 miles to hunt and if you try to touch that deer and/or cite me we are going to have a problem."

GW "Are you threatening me?"

ME "No I am just telling you that if you try to take my deer when I am legally hunting I will have your *** in a sling, and your job. That's a promise."

At this point Henry (retired Ohio highway patrolman) walked over with his cell phone out and told the guy I got the head of your department on speed dial. Maybe you should call him and get him to explain the rules to you.

He spent the better part of an hour trying to find something to get us on after he found out he was wrong. We had me, two retired LEO's, one former LEO, and the land owner there. I'll guarantee the guys boss got a call about his behavior.

Could I have been nicer? Yeah I could have but when I tell him why I don't need one and he doesn't even bother to look and just tells me I am wrong...

Next time I went home to deer hunt I carried the applicable code photocopied in my wallet.

Kynoch
10-26-2010, 12:26 AM
I was back in Ohio while still active duty to deer hunt with my Dad. Got a buck opening morning, tagged it and was back in camp. Fish & Game pulls in. Guy gets out of the truck. Just the way he got out and looked around exuded attitude.

He goes over to the deer, checks each is properly tagged. The asks which deer belongs to which hunter. I guess me being the youngest in the group (38 at the time) he decided I would be the best to ask for my license. Exchange went something along the lines of.

GW "I need to check your hunting license."

Me "I don't have one."

GW "What? You have a tagged deer and no license?"

Me "That is correct. I am active duty, I have an Ohio driver's license and leave papers. I am not required to purchase a hunting license. BUT I have to purchase a deer tag to deer hunt or duck stamp to duck hunt."

GW "That's not true.

Me "It is. Please check your regs."

GW "I just told you it isn't. You realize I can take your deer and cite you?"

Me "OK. I will say it one more time. I am completely legal. You need to check your code, or call your boss. I flew 2500 miles to hunt and if you try to touch that deer and/or cite me we are going to have a problem."

GW "Are you threatening me?"

ME "No I am just telling you that if you try to take my deer when I am legally hunting I will have your *** in a sling, and your job. That's a promise."

At this point Henry (retired Ohio highway patrolman) walked over with his cell phone out and told the guy I got the head of your department on speed dial. Maybe you should call him and get him to explain the rules to you.

He spent the better part of an hour trying to find something to get us on after he found out he was wrong. We had me, two retired LEO's, one former LEO, and the land owner there. I'll guarantee the guys boss got a call about his behavior.

Could I have been nicer? Yeah I could have but when I tell him why I don't need one and he doesn't even bother to look and just tells me I am wrong...

Next time I went home to deer hunt I carried the applicable code photocopied in my wallet.
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?

He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

M14 Junkie
10-26-2010, 12:30 AM
Never heard of a person of authority (LEO) who took it well being told they're wrong.:p

Kynoch
10-26-2010, 12:33 AM
You could insist that he call out a supervisor or a local sheriff's deputy to the scene. That's prolly about it unless you wanna risk some SHTF in the woods with most outcomes prolly not working out that well for you.

I hope the OP in that thread does file some kind of complaint because that's the only way those guys are gonna learn. Making those kinds of mistakes have gotta start to hurt....and hurt bad.
Can you?

Because I certainly would if I could. Not to put on a show -- just in the hopes that he would stop trying to steal my firearm.

Kynoch
10-26-2010, 12:35 AM
What about saying either you can take me and my gun or you take nothing.

This of course assumes you have provided sufficent details as to why your rifle is perfect legal...
Or you could use that one about taking my gun from my cold/dead fingers?

Apocalypsenerd
10-26-2010, 12:45 AM
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?

He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

You suggest that the poster is the problem and the reason the DFG guy had attitude and ignorance. Should he have bent over and taken it when he clearly had the guys boss available for comment? What would that have meant for the next hunter?

Not standing up for your rights when you can successfully do so, is just plain stupid. Allowing someone to trample them when you can successfully back him off, is stupid.

Picking winnable battles seems like what this website does. Are you suggesting people stop doing that?

jshoebot
10-26-2010, 12:47 AM
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?

He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

Yeah man, shoulda just kissed the ring and given up your deer and taken the citation, even though you were in the right! :rolleyes:

Munk
10-26-2010, 3:08 AM
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?

He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

And?...

It's his own time to burn. He was ENTIRELY in the right, and within the law. Asserting your rights is not a crime nor is it evidence/PC/or Reasonable suspicion of a crime.

I would rather burn that hour and hopfully take a pompous jerk down a peg, so that he is encouraged to actually learn the regs, and do things right.


You might also add;

ALWAYS COMPLY with what an LEO is ordering you to do. IF you resist a LAWFUL order from any LEO, you just changed your innocence into a criminal act.

You just have to "bite it" and sort things out later in the fashion that the Judicial System says it has to happen. That's a fact. And NO, it ain't fair, just the way the it is.

Is the order still lawful when based on an attempt to take a perfectly legal firearm? Hasn't there been well established case-law (http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm) that permits the resistance of an unlawful arrest or seizure? (note: not invoking the cold-dead-hands, just talking about resisting an unlawful arrest/command).

Arondos
10-26-2010, 7:18 AM
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?

He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

So I should have said OK take my deer and cite me for doing nothing wrong?

He asked if I had a license. I said no, when he asked why not I told him and it was legal. Then he tells me I am wrong and threatens to cite me.

Why couldn't he just go look up the LAW and find out I was telling him correct information? I was unarmed, in camp and drinking coffee. I wasn't going anywhere, that hour of my life I was going to be there anyway.

If he had listened and just looked the code up he could have not "burned" and hour of his life and maybe he could have caught someone that was actually breaking the law...

Simply being an LEO does not mean you are always right and know everything (My Dad was an LEO). The laws are complex enough the enforcers can't know and/or understand them all. We need to make the laws simpler IMO.

At that point my choices are.

A. Let him take the deer and get a ticket while doing nothing wrong because he doesn't know the law and isn't willing to look when politely told the first time. Then try to get time off to fight a ticket in Ohio while active duty and travel from Washington (state)

B. Stand my ground. Tell him I am right and force him to discover I am. I am unarmed, and drinking coffee so I am not exactly a huge threat and he has the only road in/out blocked..

If he had insisted he was taking the deer I would have called the head of Fish and Game while he wrote the citation.

Bobby Hated
10-26-2010, 7:19 AM
i've had multiple guns seized by overzealous and uninformed law enforcement on multiple occasions.

i finally got them back months and months later, over a year in one case, and with damage. they forcibly rmoved the fixed magazine on my SKS, costing me over a hundo in gunsmith charges to fix it. and they wrote the property number on my AK with a sharpie! i was so pissed.

these experiences occured prior to my becoming educated and informed of gun laws and my rights. if i were to have a weapon seized today, i would file harrassment complaints against the offending officer, and sue for civil rights violation. probably nothing will come of it, but at least i'll have inconvenienced the LEO more than he inconvenienced me, and leave a stain on his record.

if everyone who got harrassed by overzealous or uninformed LEO's filed harrassment complaints and sued them, they'd think twice about wasting their own time, if not ours.

J-cat
10-26-2010, 8:48 AM
And?...

Is the order still lawful when based on an attempt to take a perfectly legal firearm? Hasn't there been well established case-law (http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm) that permits the resistance of an unlawful arrest or seizure? (note: not invoking the cold-dead-hands, just talking about resisting an unlawful arrest/command).

It's one thing to resist an unlawful order and another to fight over a rifle in the woods with no witnesses.

J-cat
10-26-2010, 8:52 AM
So I should have said OK take my deer and cite me for doing nothing wrong?

He asked if I had a license. I said no, when he asked why not I told him and it was legal. Then he tells me I am wrong and threatens to cite me.

Why couldn't he just go look up the LAW and find out I was telling him correct information? I was unarmed, in camp and drinking coffee. I wasn't going anywhere, that hour of my life I was going to be there anyway.

If he had listened and just looked the code up he could have not "burned" and hour of his life and maybe he could have caught someone that was actually breaking the law...

Simply being an LEO does not mean you are always right and know everything (My Dad was an LEO). The laws are complex enough the enforcers can't know and/or understand them all. We need to make the laws simpler IMO.

At that point my choices are.

A. Let him take the deer and get a ticket while doing nothing wrong because he doesn't know the law and isn't willing to look when politely told the first time. Then try to get time off to fight a ticket in Ohio while active duty and travel from Washington (state)

B. Stand my ground. Tell him I am right and force him to discover I am. I am unarmed, and drinking coffee so I am not exactly a huge threat and he has the only road in/out blocked..

If he had insisted he was taking the deer I would have called the head of Fish and Game while he wrote the citation.

Did you file a complaint?

guns4life
10-26-2010, 9:02 AM
So you burned-up an hour of your life because you wanted to show him just how tough/smart you are? Ever take into consideration how he treated the hunters at the next camp and the one after that due to his experiences with you?He could have cited you and the best you could have done (after expending even more time) is having the ticket dropped. I don't think you would have had any practical recourse at all had he taken your game. I guess you could have written a letter but that and $2.50 will get you a venti sized coffee of the day at Starbucks...

I imagine he did, and that's why he set that ignorant officer straight, so the next hunter doesn't have the same problem.

kcbrown
10-26-2010, 9:07 AM
Well the term jack booted thugs leads me to believe this threads worthless. Change the Legislature or man up and put on a uniform /shrug. I' am sure you could do a much better job alone out in the forest dealing with armed people and a 10 foot thick book of regulations and laws.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You don't get to play the ignorance card just because you're a LEO.

Either a LEO can bust out the ignorance card in which case a normal citizen can legitimately do the same, or he can't. Which is it?


The LEO's stated job is to enforce the law (I think his job is really to ensure the liberty of the people, but that argument is for another thread). You can't enforce the law unless you know the law. If I didn't know a great deal about the job I was doing I would be fired. The same thing should be true of law enforcement. The law is the most central part of the LEO's job. It's stated as being the entire reason the LEO is there at all. So spare me the bullsh*t about how there are too many laws for the LEOs to know them all. If they can't know the law enough to avoid enforcing it improperly then they should be forced to find some other line of work, just like I would have to find some other line of work if I didn't have sufficient knowledge to avoid screwing up.

As far as I'm concerned, if a LEO can't recite from memory the text of the law he's enforcing, he has no business enforcing it.


The LEOs here on this forum are generally intelligent and articulate, and I doubt they have any trouble knowing the laws that they are enforcing.

Kynoch
10-30-2010, 5:48 AM
So I should have said OK take my deer and cite me for doing nothing wrong?

He asked if I had a license. I said no, when he asked why not I told him and it was legal. Then he tells me I am wrong and threatens to cite me.

Why couldn't he just go look up the LAW and find out I was telling him correct information? I was unarmed, in camp and drinking coffee. I wasn't going anywhere, that hour of my life I was going to be there anyway.

If he had listened and just looked the code up he could have not "burned" and hour of his life and maybe he could have caught someone that was actually breaking the law...

Simply being an LEO does not mean you are always right and know everything (My Dad was an LEO). The laws are complex enough the enforcers can't know and/or understand them all. We need to make the laws simpler IMO.

At that point my choices are.

A. Let him take the deer and get a ticket while doing nothing wrong because he doesn't know the law and isn't willing to look when politely told the first time. Then try to get time off to fight a ticket in Ohio while active duty and travel from Washington (state)

B. Stand my ground. Tell him I am right and force him to discover I am. I am unarmed, and drinking coffee so I am not exactly a huge threat and he has the only road in/out blocked..

If he had insisted he was taking the deer I would have called the head of Fish and Game while he wrote the citation.
That's foolishness. You could have been less quick to act like a jerk. If those were actual quotes you were speaking in a most *****ly manner. Though he was still wrong you were inviting the LEO to treat you the way he did.

You talk to someone like that and then you wonder why they do the emotional rather than the logical thing? :rolleyes:

Munk
10-30-2010, 12:45 PM
It's one thing to resist an unlawful order and another to fight over a rifle in the woods with no witnesses.

See my earlier posts about not being violent.

I'm totally with you about fighting over a gun in the woods, it's a recipe for a tragedy.

I'm talking about refusal to produce something they have no right to demand, and refusing to unlock a container/vehicle they have no right to search.

(although i'm aware that possibility for poaching gives DFG a few more bits of Probably Cause they can use, based on circumstances).