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View Full Version : AB962 - How Would It be Enforced?


Left Coast Conservative
10-24-2010, 10:16 PM
This question is asked seriously because I am ignorant of the following.

AB962 establishes a California state law, prohibiting Internet sales of ammunition to residents of the state. Many Internet ammunition vendors, Cabelas, and Cheaper Than Dirt have indicated that starting in February, 2011, they will not sell any ammunition to residents of California.

My question is this: how can a company located outside of the state of California be prosecuted for violating a law that exists in California only? What jurisdiction would "arrest" and prosecute a company that exists outside of California?

oni.dori
10-24-2010, 10:28 PM
I think that it needs to be clarified that AB962 only pertains to "pistol" (and I use the term somewhat loosely, because there is AT LEAST one round that is technically a rifle round that is on the list of "pistol" ammunition) ammo only. They tried to ammend it to include many popular (read: anything banners would deem as "military") rifle rounds, such as 5.56/.223, .308, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, etc., but in a rare stroke of good judgement, it was struck down.
Now, that doesn't mean that most retailers havent just decided that they won't sell ANY ammo to CA residents because of that, it just needs to be clear that they are legally ABLE to, so long as it is not "pistol" ammo.

QQQ
10-24-2010, 10:30 PM
To answer the original question, it would probably be the same authority that would go after a company that sells a 30-round magazine to someone living here in California. Not sure who it is, but the threat is obviously real enough that it has prevented companies from selling those items to CA residents.

To answer oni.dori, I'm willing to bet a million bucks that almost all major vendors will outright refuse to sell any ammunition to CA customers, pistol or not.

oni.dori
10-24-2010, 10:41 PM
To answer oni.dori, I'm willing to bet a million bucks that almost all major vendors will outright refuse to sell any ammunition to CA customers, pistol or not.

I agree, and I am expecting the same. It sucks, but it is just reality for now.

CMonfort
10-24-2010, 10:44 PM
The documents posted in this thread should help clear up some of your questions:

http://http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=344291&highlight=injunction+to+stop+ab+962

That is all we can say for now - Plaintiffs' Motion for Injunction will be heard on November 3rd in this case.

otalps
10-24-2010, 10:45 PM
Bad link.

Got it, just remove the first http://

Arondos
10-24-2010, 10:45 PM
I guess I will just have to vacation in NV and spend my ammo money there instead of Kalifornia. Should be fun if I get stopped with like 6+ cases of ammo in the back of the car.

dantodd
10-24-2010, 10:53 PM
I think that it needs to be clarified that AB962 only pertains to "pistol" (and I use the term somewhat loosely, because there is AT LEAST one round that is technically a rifle round that is on the list of "pistol" ammunition) ammo only.

Could you point me to a list of ammo in the law as passed? I think that a big part of one of the lawsuits is that it is unconstitutionally vague specifically because no such list exists as well as other issues.

oni.dori
10-24-2010, 11:12 PM
Honestly, I am not aware of where to locate a specified list, all I know is what I have been explained to by ammo retailers like Turner's and Wal-Mart, FFL's, and other people.

I have also heard that the law was also written to include handloading components for pistols, and also most for rifles, as many parts are supposedly able to be substituted in loading some pistol rounds. Again, I stress that this is what I have heard, second hand, and have no actual lists of things. I can't say that everything I have heard is absolute, but I am inclined to believe it. I wouldn't mind being disproven, believe me.

dantodd
10-24-2010, 11:32 PM
Honestly, I am not aware of where to locate a specified list, all I know is what I have been explained to by ammo retailers like Turner's and Wal-Mart, FFL's, and other people.

I have also heard that the law was also written to include handloading components for pistols, and also most for rifles, as many parts are supposedly able to be substituted in loading some pistol rounds. Again, I stress that this is what I have heard, second hand, and have no actual lists of things. I can't say that everything I have heard is absolute, but I am inclined to believe it. I wouldn't mind being disproven, believe me.

I am unclear on how AB962 impacts reloaders, I don't reload and I haven't read up enough on it. There is no list of what is and isn't "handgun ammunition" which is one of the many faults with the bill. In general Retailers are not very good places to get information on actual laws. I wish it were otherwise but often they simply don't know the law.


You can read the actual law here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20091011_chaptered.html

The only reference I see to reloading equipment is the sale of "bullets" to minors or prohibited persons. I suspect that a driver's license faxed would be "reasonable care" for age and the mail order prevention issues wouldn't apply as far as I see though this is the first time I've wandered through 962 looking for that and it's late.

This is the definition of "handgun ammunition" specified in AB962

CA Penal Code 12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply: (a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

wildhawker
10-24-2010, 11:44 PM
Reloading components are not affected. See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon,_Ammunition

jtmkinsd
10-24-2010, 11:44 PM
Honestly, I am not aware of where to locate a specified list, all I know is what I have been explained to by ammo retailers like Turner's and Wal-Mart, FFL's, and other people.

I have also heard that the law was also written to include handloading components for pistols, and also most for rifles, as many parts are supposedly able to be substituted in loading some pistol rounds. Again, I stress that this is what I have heard, second hand, and have no actual lists of things. I can't say that everything I have heard is absolute, but I am inclined to believe it. I wouldn't mind being disproven, believe me.

A lot of this hinges on the injunction...AB962 is completely irrational (that doesn't mean it won't take years of litigation to clear up though)

wildhawker
10-24-2010, 11:58 PM
A lot of this hinges on the injunction...AB962 is completely irrational (that doesn't mean it won't take years of litigation to clear up though)

No, it won't. See OOIDA v. Lindley.

bwiese
10-25-2010, 12:15 AM
My question is this: how can a company located outside of the state of California be prosecuted for violating a law that exists in California only? What jurisdiction would "arrest" and prosecute a company that exists outside of California?

Let's step back from AB962 issues - since there are numerous and under litigation - and instead, I'll write in generalities about interstate transaction legalities.

Many people are very mistaken thinking they can stand outside a state's border and send in illegal products or engage in illegal transactions within that state (here, CA) and be immune because they're standing over the border. Wrong. And they can get in big trouble (usu. financial).

There's no such thing. Besides the 'nexus' of the transactions likely being considered to be in CA, CA law has "long arm jurisdiction". In theory, relevant CA agencies or prosecutors could issue warrants, seek extradition, etc. for criminal violations, even if the particular act was legal in the state at the other end of the transaction. And that state's LE would, in general, have to give full faith & credit to CA's laws.

Typically CA does not do actual warrants & arrests/extradition for such matters but sends cease & desist letters and seeks expen$ive "civil remedies".

Many companies have gone thru this drama with mail-order wine sales into another 'problem' state (i.e., maybe one with state-run liquor stores). . Also producers of aftermarket 'speed' equipment for cars have been popped for advertising such items for sale without either being EPA+CARB exempt (with EO#) nor marked with "For Racing Use Only" / "Not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled motor vehicles." Several aftermarket parts companies paid big $$$ in late 80s/early 90s to CARB for advertising & shipping unmarked product into CA.

See this article for a pretty good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-arm_jurisdiction

oni.dori
10-25-2010, 12:46 AM
I am unclear on how AB962 impacts reloaders, I don't reload and I haven't read up enough on it. There is no list of what is and isn't "handgun ammunition" which is one of the many faults with the bill. In general Retailers are not very good places to get information on actual laws. I wish it were otherwise but often they simply don't know the law.


You can read the actual law here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20091011_chaptered.html

The only reference I see to reloading equipment is the sale of "bullets" to minors or prohibited persons. I suspect that a driver's license faxed would be "reasonable care" for age and the mail order prevention issues wouldn't apply as far as I see though this is the first time I've wandered through 962 looking for that and it's late.

This is the definition of "handgun ammunition" specified in AB962

Well, I did say reloading COMPONENTS, not EQUIPMENT. Components would be defined (as best as I can decipher) as the specific components required to assemble a round of ammunition; specifically cases, primers, powder, and the bullet itself. equipment would be defined as the tools used to assemble the components; such as the press, dies, primer installer, case reamers, case trimmers, calipers, micrometers, etc.

Reloading components are not affected. See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon,_Ammunition

Thank you for proving me wrong (seriously).

Many companies have gone thru this drama with mail-order wine sales into another 'problem' state (i.e., maybe one with state-run liquor stores). . Also producers of aftermarket 'speed' equipment for cars have been popped for advertising such items for sale without either being EPA+CARB exempt (with EO#) nor marked with "For Racing Use Only" / "Not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled motor vehicles." Several aftermarket parts companies paid big $$$ in late 80s/early 90s to CARB for advertising & shipping unmarked product into CA.

See this article for a pretty good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-arm_jurisdiction

I formerly worked for a vehicle importer that was licensed by the DOT, EPA, and CARB certified; so I can confidently say that as long as the part is truly aftermarket, it does not need to comply with CARB regulations, so long as it is expressly stated on packaging and advertisement not to comply with CARB laws for street legal use and that it does not have a CARB EO number. As far as I am aware, all of those litigations were thrown out as a result of that (so long as they did not falsley claim to have obtained one). Proof of that is that a majority of the aftermarket companies that produce, or import, these parts are based out of California (specifcally the ones that cater to the import/"tuner" market), and a majority of their sales are to residents of California. Like always, California tried their fascist muscling tactics on something they deemed "evil", and it didn't hold up legally.
Now, as far as actual vehicles (ESPECIALLY imported "grey market" ones) go, that is a COMPLETELY different story.

Wrangler John
10-25-2010, 5:17 AM
When I received a catalog from Natchez Shooter's Supply it carried the notice that ammunition sales to California would cease in 2012. I emailed them a note stating that the law covered only handgun loaded ammunition and did not pertain to reloading components. I asked if they would still ship reloading components to California. Their reply was received today:

Our current understanding of the California law is that we are unable to ship loaded ammunition to the state after 2-1-2011.

Thanks,
Mitch
www.natchezss.com
1-800-251-7839

My concern is that reloading components would be unavailable. So far so good.

Left Coast Conservative
10-25-2010, 5:54 AM
There's no such thing. Besides the 'nexus' of the transactions likely being considered to be in CA, CA law has "long arm jurisdiction". In theory, relevant CA agencies or prosecutors could issue warrants, seek extradition, etc. for criminal violations, even if the particular act was legal in the state at the other end of the transaction. And that state's LE would, in general, have to give full faith & credit to CA's laws.

Typically CA does not do actual warrants & arrests/extradition for such matters but sends cease & desist letters and seeks expen$ive "civil remedies".


Thanks. bwiese, this is the kind of thing I was hoping to learn.


See this article for a pretty good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-arm_jurisdiction

From the Wiki article:


Other states, like California, broadly grant jurisdiction "on any basis not inconsistent with the Constitution of this state or the United States."


Hence the basis of the lawsuits against AB962. Also, aren't the lawsuits filed against AB962 also using Long Arm Jurisdiction to sue in courts that would be more friendly to such a challenge, that is a non-California court?

frankm
10-25-2010, 7:50 AM
I look forward to buying thousands of rounds at one pop in AZ next year. Some gun store is gonna make a lot of money.

Wherryj
10-25-2010, 8:27 AM
A lot of this hinges on the injunction...AB962 is completely irrational (that doesn't mean it won't take years of litigation to clear up though)

I agree, and it also hasn't stopped the thousands of other irrational laws passed in the state/country from being enforced either.

FeuerFrei
10-25-2010, 10:05 AM
Get your C&R+COE+J&G Sales account.
Done.
Tired of being humped by my own government.
:mad::banghead:

CMonfort
10-25-2010, 10:06 AM
I agree, and it also hasn't stopped the thousands of other irrational laws passed in the state/country from being enforced either.

There is quite a bit of misinformation on this thread. Unfortunately the CRPAF and NRA cannot comment or clarify at this juncture due to pending litigation efforts. The best thing you can do in the meantime is stay tuned as challenges to AB 962 proceed in court and read the pleadings in both Parker and OOIDA to stay informed.

Thank you for your patience.

GWbiker
10-25-2010, 11:35 AM
I look forward to buying thousands of rounds at one pop in AZ next year. Some gun store is gonna make a lot of money.

Hmmm, you may get hit with a surcharge if you make an ammo purchase in person in Arizona. Gun store owners are talking about adding an "Idiot Tax" on ammo sales made to California residents. This in response to all the idiots who allowed AB962 to go forward in the system and become law.
















/sarcasm....:D

sd_shooter
10-25-2010, 12:05 PM
Get your C&R+COE+J&G Sales account.
Done.
Tired of being humped by my own government.
:mad::banghead:

Has J&G said they will honor the C&R+COE exemption? The only thing I've seen from them are flyers warning of the impending ban.

Tim McBride
10-25-2010, 7:08 PM
I look forward to buying thousands of rounds at one pop in AZ next year. Some gun store is gonna make a lot of money.

Please keep your money and suffer the fools who have taken over your State Government.

Knight_Who_Says_Ni
10-25-2010, 7:44 PM
COE?

Librarian
10-25-2010, 7:58 PM
COE?

C-ertificate O-f E-ligilbility - mostly (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#36G) used by employees of gun shops, but available to others (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf).

gunsmith
10-25-2010, 8:36 PM
stay calm, listen to post 21.

If you feel you need to, don't go to an AZ/NV gunstore - go to a gunshow and buy bulk, it will be cheaper.

oni.dori
10-26-2010, 12:50 AM
When I received a catalog from Natchez Shooter's Supply it carried the notice that ammunition sales to California would cease in 2012. I emailed them a note stating that the law covered only handgun loaded ammunition and did not pertain to reloading components. I asked if they would still ship reloading components to California. Their reply was received today:

Our current understanding of the California law is that we are unable to ship loaded ammunition to the state after 2-1-2011.

Thanks,
Mitch
www.natchezss.com
1-800-251-7839

My concern is that reloading components would be unavailable. So far so good.

Someone needs to send them, and other ammo retailers, clarification (as in excerpts from the lettering of the law) so that we don't lose ALL of our good deals on ammo.

ke6guj
10-26-2010, 1:04 AM
Has J&G said they will honor the C&R+COE exemption? The only thing I've seen from them are flyers warning of the impending ban.some CG'ers have mentioned that J&G has indicated that they would honor the C&R+COE exemption.

chaseface
10-26-2010, 1:33 AM
stay calm, listen to post 21.

If you feel you need to, don't go to an AZ/NV gunstore - go to a gunshow and buy bulk, it will be cheaper.

Better get there early. There were people filling up their trucks with ammo at the last Cow Palace gun show and that was before this stupid law goes into effect

gobler
10-26-2010, 1:34 AM
C-ertificate O-f E-ligilbility - mostly (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#36G) used by employees of gun shops, but available to others (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf).

I noticed on the form it has Prop Master as one of the selections. That is the type of business I own, so I wonder if I would be good to go? :D

vantec08
10-26-2010, 7:35 AM
I look forward to buying thousands of rounds at one pop in AZ next year. Some gun store is gonna make a lot of money.

try the small gun show at the fairgrounds in Yuma, or the big Phoenix crossroads show.