PDA

View Full Version : Enough PC for police to enter a home?


NorCalRedneck
10-24-2010, 9:51 PM
I was watching Campus Police tonight and a majority of the calls were party calls. I noticed that a lot of the time the police would just enter a home uninvited.

What PC do police need to enter a home in this situation? Say I was having a party and the police knocked on the door and I didn't answer/told them I didn't want to speak with them. What would they do from there? Leave? Kick down the door?

If you open the door when they knock does that give them an open invitation to enter your home?

SVT-40
10-24-2010, 10:27 PM
To many "what if's" to give a reasonable answer. There could be situations where it would be reasonable for the police to enter. And there would be situations where it would not be reasonable for the police to enter.

I think many of the campus police episodes take place on campus in college housing. That would give the police more authority to make entry.

verapakill
10-24-2010, 10:29 PM
Are they campus housing?

If so they can probably do just about what ever they want

POLICESTATE
10-24-2010, 10:32 PM
I remember a lot of college parties just had the door open, maybe if you have the door open it's not that private? Certainly if they see what APPEARS to be underage drinking or drugs from an open doorway (or window) they have all the PC they need.

berto
10-24-2010, 10:33 PM
If you open the door you really ought to step outside and close it behind you. It helps if for the moment the door is open there isn't anything questionable in plain view.

pitchbaby
10-24-2010, 10:33 PM
I am going to throw in and say that with campus housing, it may be possible that campus police entry is a term of your lease agreement. I don't know for sure though... just a guess.

I'm not saying it's right or even constitutional, but since when have any of us here been impressed with the efforts of educational facilities providing constitutional rights to those on their campuses?

negolien
10-25-2010, 3:21 AM
Dirty cops ... they should just lynch em up O.o....

tenpercentfirearms
10-25-2010, 5:23 AM
If the door is not controlled and people are entering as they please, then the cops can nearly do the same. If the door is open and they can see "minors" inside drinking, they might just go in.

It could be they just don't even bother with proper procedure anymore either because no one ever complains.

Deucer
10-25-2010, 6:18 AM
I was watching Campus Police tonight and a majority of the calls were party calls. I noticed that a lot of the time the police would just enter a home uninvited.

What PC do police need to enter a home in this situation? Say I was having a party and the police knocked on the door and I didn't answer/told them I didn't want to speak with them. What would they do from there? Leave? Kick down the door?

If you open the door when they knock does that give them an open invitation to enter your home?

Are you talking about campus police or real LEO? The UCPD (for example) is a lot different from a private school rent a cop.

If we're talking about campus rent a cops, they have quite a bit of authority on campus. They don't need to follow normal LEO procedure, and are enforcing school policy, not the law. They can really screw you administratively. If you bar them from your home, you will most likely face consequences from your school administration. Unlike the real LEO, they are not bound by PC. They can call the real LEO though. If they've seen anything incriminating after entering your residence, I'd think that'd be a pretty easy way to make an end run around PC because they could then tell the cops about it.

Having worked for the UCPD, from my personal experience:

The UCPD officers I worked with were institutionally focused on student safety issues. They would walk into parties with impunity because they really weren't interested in arresting or citing anyone, just calming things down. PC for entry wasn't their first concern, because they weren't looking to build a case. In most cases they just wanted everyone to keep the noise down and not fight or blow weed smoke right in their faces. Unless a riot was breaking out (which happened a couple of times while I was at school) no one was getting arrested. Again, this is just my personal experience.

IrishJoe3
10-25-2010, 10:09 AM
Word of warning, those cop shows are filmed for entertainment...there is a lot of stuff missing that actually happened, (face it, 20 minutes of a cop having a conversation on the sidwalk would affect the rating), or sometimes things aren't shown in the order that they happened.

Vbp6us
10-25-2010, 10:33 AM
Having lived within a 1 mile radius of my university, I learned that cops have special rights when they are arriving at the scene of a party. I'm talking about privately owned apartments, not school owned/run.

Cpl. Haas
10-25-2010, 10:51 AM
Often times, with large parties, the responding officers will knock on the door, and be met by someone who isn't the owner of the house, doesn't know the owner of the house, and doesn't even know who's house he/she is at... at that point, the officers will likely enter the house to find the owner and make sure the party goers have permission. I know of more than one occasion where some high school kids got access to a neighbor's house, while the neighbor was on vacation, and threw a party.

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 10:56 AM
Word of warning, those cop shows are filmed for entertainment...there is a lot of stuff missing that actually happened, (face it, 20 minutes of a cop having a conversation on the sidwalk would affect the rating), or sometimes things aren't shown in the order that they happened.


I love it when the camera angle is from the INSIDE of the house as the LEO walks in....think about it people.

HowardW56
10-25-2010, 11:06 AM
Having lived within a 1 mile radius of my university, I learned that cops have special rights when they are arriving at the scene of a party. I'm talking about privately owned apartments, not school owned/run.


I call BS...

special rights my ***

dantodd
10-25-2010, 11:48 AM
Often times, with large parties, the responding officers will knock on the door, and be met by someone who isn't the owner of the house, doesn't know the owner of the house, and doesn't even know who's house he/she is at... at that point, the officers will likely enter the house to find the owner and make sure the party goers have permission. I know of more than one occasion where some high school kids got access to a neighbor's house, while the neighbor was on vacation, and threw a party.

I do not believe the officers can legally enter just because the person opening the door is not the owner/renter. 90% of the time these are dumb and drunk kids.

Someone opens the door.

Oh Shoot, it's the cops.
Officer: Is this your home?
Drunk Kid: Uh..... no....
Officer: I need to speak to whoever is in charge of the party.
*Officer Starts walking through the door*
Officer: Is he inside?
Dunk Kid: Uh.... yeah, I think he's over there"
*Drunk kid points to keg stand setup.*

greasemonkey
10-25-2010, 1:26 PM
I love it when the camera angle is from the INSIDE of the house as the LEO walks in....think about it people.

You mean to say that underage plainclothes cops have already been in the house doing keg stands??
:D

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 1:34 PM
Having lived within a 1 mile radius of my university, I learned that cops have special rights when they are arriving at the scene of a party. I'm talking about privately owned apartments, not school owned/run.

negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

a mallcop or schoolcop trys to walk into MY house without being asked and he's hitting the floor as would ANY intruder. The fact that he is armed will add another felony to my complaint against him.

mall security, school security, bar's bouncers and rent-a-cop do not have any authority outside of the bounds of their employer.

CSACANNONEER
10-25-2010, 1:58 PM
negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

a mallcop or schoolcop trys to walk into MY house without being asked and he's hitting the floor as would ANY intruder. The fact that he is armed will add another felony to my complaint against him.

mall security, school security, bar's bouncers and rent-a-cop do not have any authority outside of the bounds of their employer.

There's a difference between a "mall cop" or a "school cop" who are sworn LEOs and rent-a-cops. Just because a LEO's stationed at a mall or shcool doesn't make him/her any less of a LEO than those who are stationed out of other places. If a "mall cop" ends up with enough PC to enter your residence without a warant and you draw down on him/her, we'll put some cash on the bboks for you during the holidays.

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 2:59 PM
There's a difference between a "mall cop" or a "school cop" who are sworn LEOs and rent-a-cops. Just because a LEO's stationed at a mall or school doesn't make him/her any less of a LEO than those who are stationed out of other places. If a "mall cop" ends up with enough PC to enter your residence without a warrant and you draw down on him/her, we'll put some cash on the bboks for you during the holidays.

I was the Southern California Regional Investigator for a Leading retail store chain in the US. I knew a night manager was intercepting shipments from the warehouse and directing them somewhere. I formed a team to watch his store on a delivery day, and sure enough his wife pulled up with a small U-haul and he loaded about $10K worth of goods onto the truck. As we went in to arrest everyone, the wife took off. Even though one of my officers followed her right to her property. If he had entered that ranch he would have been an intruder. Anyone unfamiliar with what he was doing (a friend, a neighbor, their son...) would have been justified in shooting him. The same as you seeing some unknown person on your property at 2am.

I am not sure what law you have been taught, but mallcops and school cops do not have any rights of arrest past those of a citizen. A guard card and carry permit don't equal a POST and sworn officer. Now if I had a sworn Officer on my team that night, (I have done it before when dealing with stolen shipments). They could have entered.

BTW, we were never able to get onto the property even after signing several complaints and reports. On LEO contact the 3 hours later PC to search was gone, they saw no Uhaul, and where told they did not have permission to enter the garage, or house. After several interviews with the Assistant Manager he signed a confession of theft, a promissory note for 10K, forfeited his last paycheck and then plead no contest to theft charges. We never recovered a single thing.

paul0660
10-25-2010, 3:09 PM
Diesel, that was informative, well written, added to the thread, and was COMPLETE, which happens about 1/10000th of the time around here. THANKS!

SVT-40
10-25-2010, 3:10 PM
negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

a mallcop or schoolcop trys to walk into MY house without being asked and he's hitting the floor as would ANY intruder. The fact that he is armed will add another felony to my complaint against him.

mall security, school security, bar's bouncers and rent-a-cop do not have any authority outside of the bounds of their employer.

Why do some always take things to the ludicrous extreme??:rolleyes:

What do "mall cops, bouncers or rent-a-cops" have to do with the question the O/P posted?

If you don't have anything relevant to share, why post?

Doheny
10-25-2010, 4:16 PM
I am not sure what law you have been taught, but mallcops and school cops do not have any rights of arrest past those of a citizen. A guard card and carry permit don't equal a POST and sworn officer.

Since the OP was about a college campus, yes, Cal State and UCPD officers attend a full post academy as do other cops in CA. They're considered officers under 830.2 of the PC.

tyrist
10-25-2010, 4:25 PM
If there is a noise complaint (crime in progress) from a party or underage drinking going on the Police can enter with the intent to locate the property owner/operator. This is not a search of the premises but any evidence seen in plain view is going to make getting a warrant pretty dang easy after the house is cleared and secured.

I will state again the going inside of the residence is for the sole purpose of locating the property owner/operator since they are the ones being placed under arrest.

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 5:26 PM
Since the OP was about a college campus, yes, Cal State and UCPD officers attend a full post academy as do other cops in CA. They're considered officers under 830.2 of the PC.

Why do some always take things to the ludicrous extreme??

What do "mall cops, bouncers or rent-a-cops" have to do with the question the O/P posted?

If you don't have anything relevant to share, why post?

and why is it SOME people can't follow more then 1 topic.

Try real hard.. maybe one of you can remember back to the 3rd grade...think about the English lessons the teacher taught you about FOLLOWING A TOPIC and READING COMPREHENSION.

We moved past the OP and on to a remark about Campus Police having the authority to walk into ANY home on or off campus. UCLA Police have ZERO authority to enter my home the same as all LEO without warrant

N6ATF
10-25-2010, 5:36 PM
Ron-Solo would probably disagree. :rolleyes:

a1c
10-25-2010, 5:59 PM
There is also exigent circumstances: if cops see, say, a person lying seemingly unconscious on the floor from a window, or hear a violent dispute, then they can enter without a warrant.

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 6:03 PM
There is also exigent circumstances: if cops see, say, a person lying seemingly unconscious on the floor from a window, or hear a violent dispute, then they can enter without a warrant.

Yes all persons could enter under those terms.

What we are talking about is, I live in Ventura. I am hosting a USC party. USC Police can not drive to my house and bust in to "check for underage drinking" since that is a violation of USC policy.

pullnshoot25
10-25-2010, 6:04 PM
Your 4A rights are wholly intact in a college dorm unless you sign them away. Usually freshmen have no 4A rights as a condition of living on campus.

626.11 is a good example of that.

CSACANNONEER
10-25-2010, 6:25 PM
I am not sure what law you have been taught, but mallcops and school cops do not have any rights of arrest past those of a citizen. A guard card and carry permit don't equal a POST and sworn officer. Now if I had a sworn Officer on my team that night, (I have done it before when dealing with stolen shipments). They could have entered.


I'm not talking about mall security, I'm talking about mall cops. Maybe you are not aware that there are some malls with their own police stations in them. There are mall cops who are real city police. In the original post that I qouted you refered to mall cops and mall security. I thought you knew that there is a difference. The same goes with schools. Certain schools have a permanent city police presence. Those woulds be school cops. Then, some schools have private security.

dieselpower
10-25-2010, 6:51 PM
I'm not talking about mall security, I'm talking about mall cops. Maybe you are not aware that there are some malls with their own police stations in them. There are mall cops who are real city police. In the original post that I qouted you refered to mall cops and mall security. I thought you knew that there is a difference. The same goes with schools. Certain schools have a permanent city police presence. Those woulds be school cops. Then, some schools have private security.

I made no distinction because there isnt one. LEO assign to malls and schools still do not have the authority to bust into an OFF CAMPUS home to enforce school policy...as post #11 stated

Having lived within a 1 mile radius of my university, I learned that cops have special rights when they are arriving at the scene of a party. I'm talking about privately owned apartments, not school owned/run.


There are no such special rights given to Campus LEO or City LEO assigned to a campus. In fact the special rights are with the student who lives OFF CAMPUS over a student who lives on campus.

Read my story post #19. Now there were times I hired LAPD to "guard" freight containers. They had full LEO powers to pursue, detain, arrest with the added authority given by me to enter and use all of my companies resources. They still had to follow standard laws...and believe me we had several arguments over this because I wanted them to do things they were not allowed to do....so I did it. I loved the fact I wasn't restrained by Miranda.

Ron-Solo
10-25-2010, 8:09 PM
Word of warning, those cop shows are filmed for entertainment...there is a lot of stuff missing that actually happened, (face it, 20 minutes of a cop having a conversation on the sidwalk would affect the rating), or sometimes things aren't shown in the order that they happened.

This!!! Having been on COPS and having them running around our station for six weeks I got a better insight on how they work. It was interesting.

SVT-40
10-25-2010, 9:45 PM
and why is it SOME people can't follow more then 1 topic.

Try real hard.. maybe one of you can remember back to the 3rd grade...think about the English lessons the teacher taught you about FOLLOWING A TOPIC and READING COMPREHENSION.

We moved past the OP and on to a remark about Campus Police having the authority to walk into ANY home on or off campus. UCLA Police have ZERO authority to enter my home the same as all LEO without warrant

Maybe you "moved past it" and can justify whatever rant you want.

Probably best to start a new post about your issues though. It would be better than thread jacking this one. ;)

You live in Ventura correct? Why would the UCLA police want to possibly come to your door?

Yes, believe it or not there are situations where the police can enter a home without a warrant. They are very very limited. But they can and do occur. All the bluster in the world cannot change that fact.

I'm not saying that to be confrontational. It's just the truth.

6172crew
10-25-2010, 9:57 PM
This!!! Having been on COPS and having them running around our station for six weeks I got a better insight on how they work. It was interesting.

Where you the one driving a 1986 Caprice classic and sporting the Burt Reynolds stash?:D Some of the older COPS episodes were great. I got to ride along with the LAPD Air side and they had their own TV crew during the 90s.

Sorry, high jack mod off:o

Ron-Solo
10-25-2010, 10:37 PM
Where you the one driving a 1986 Caprice classic and sporting the Burt Reynolds stash?:D Some of the older COPS episodes were great. I got to ride along with the LAPD Air side and they had their own TV crew during the 90s.

Sorry, high jack mod off:o

The episodes I was in were from the early 90's, but we were driving Caprices. One was where we pepper sprayed a guy who had just beat up his common law wife and he was screaming "Martin Luther King" but he meant to yell "Rodney King" and he was high on PCP. The other was a guy named "Eduardo" who was drunk and reading himself his rights in the booking cage. I was the sergeant with, as he put it, "nice shoes." They filmed him for about 30 minutes and we were definitely :rolf2:

CSACANNONEER
10-26-2010, 4:27 AM
I made no distinction because there isnt one. LEO assign to malls and schools still do not have the authority to bust into an OFF CAMPUS home to enforce school policy...as post #11 stated



I was unaware of the fact that state police have limited powers which are governed by where they are stationed. But, you must know something the rest of us do not.

dieselpower
10-26-2010, 8:16 AM
I was unaware of the fact that state police have limited powers which are governed by where they are stationed. But, you must know something the rest of us do not.


Oh ok...lets threadjack a threadjack and explore this...

You are now saying LEO assigned by the department to work the mall can IGNORE that and just do what they want...really...ok.

You people need to learn to read a thread properly.

Post #11 implied LEO assigned to Campus have "SPECIAL POWERS" granted to them...

Two of us posted BS, I with supporting info.

Ok smart-ones...post this new law enacted by CA giving Campus Police or LEO assigned to a School or Mall the authority to bust into my house where another LEO would NOT have that authority...

Some "lawyers" here need to learn to read.

dieselpower
10-26-2010, 8:28 AM
Maybe you "moved past it" and can justify whatever rant you want.

Probably best to start a new post about your issues though. It would be better than thread jacking this one. ;)

You live in Ventura correct? Why would the UCLA police want to possibly come to your door?

Yes, believe it or not there are situations where the police can enter a home without a warrant. They are very very limited. But they can and do occur. All the bluster in the world cannot change that fact.

I'm not saying that to be confrontational. It's just the truth.

I was showing that the "special powers" to burst into a home 1 mile off campus was ludicrous...as ludicrous as LEO assigned to a mall in LA bursting into a home in Oakhurst. There are jurisdictions as well as constitutional issues afoot.

And as for your second statement, you are not following the thread properly. We are talking about "special powers" granted to Campus Police while off campus.

CSACANNONEER
10-26-2010, 1:01 PM
Oh ok...lets threadjack a threadjack and explore this...

You are now saying LEO assigned by the department to work the mall can IGNORE that and just do what they want...really...ok.

You people need to learn to read a thread properly.

Post #11 implied LEO assigned to Campus have "SPECIAL POWERS" granted to them...

Two of us posted BS, I with supporting info.

Ok smart-ones...post this new law enacted by CA giving Campus Police or LEO assigned to a School or Mall the authority to bust into my house where another LEO would NOT have that authority...

Some "lawyers" here need to learn to read.

Campus police (for state campuses) do not have "special powers" but, there main jurisdiction includes everything within one mile of campus property. Other than that, they are still state police officers. They have no more or less authority than any other LEO.

As far as "mall cops" go, you keep insisting that they are all rent-a-cops. Just because they are assigned to a specific duty station does not mean that they are any less of a LEO than any other LEO. Like most LEOs they are always "on duty" and, if the situation arises, one can only hope they would act just like any other LEO if they witness a problem which requires immediate attention.

dieselpower
10-26-2010, 1:15 PM
Campus police (for state campuses) do not have "special powers" but, there main jurisdiction includes everything within one mile of campus property. Other than that, they are still state police officers. They have no more or less authority than any other LEO.

As far as "mall cops" go, you keep insisting that they are all rent-a-cops. Just because they are assigned to a specific duty station does not mean that they are any less of a LEO than any other LEO. Like most LEOs they are always "on duty" and, if the situation arises, one can only hope they would act just like any other LEO if they witness a problem which requires immediate attention.

Correct. I have been the one who request and works out the details of LEO assigned to malls and shopping centers along with hiring LEO to moonlight. I get all that.

Campus policy ends at Campus boundaries. They can hold Students accountable for off campus behavior, but they can not enforce policy off campus. I am a student at UCLA. On campus I do not have the right to refuse a search of my person by Campus Police. Off campus Campus Police have no right to search me without cause. The same would be for a house party. On Campus, the Campus Police can do whatever they want. Off campus a warrant, PC or EC must exist to enter.

I think we have been in agreement the whole time. I do believe you mis-read my statements and took them out of context for which they were written.