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View Full Version : Muzzleloader in gun rack within 1000' of a school?


FXR
10-23-2010, 4:39 PM
Hi all, I'm thinking about throwing an old wall hanger muzzleloading shotgun in the gun rack in my truck just to put guns back into the local collective consciousness. Would a muzzleloader still have to be in a locked container when driving within 1000 feet of a school?

Also, I sometimes drive on the publicly accessible roads running through the UCSB campus. Is a muzzleloader a problem here?

N6ATF
10-23-2010, 5:50 PM
If it is illegal, I wonder if putting a 3Dish realistic decal in your window would achieve the same result.

Librarian
10-23-2010, 5:58 PM
Hi all, I'm thinking about throwing an old wall hanger muzzleloading shotgun in the gun rack in my truck just to put guns back into the local collective consciousness. Would a muzzleloader still have to be in a locked container when driving within 1000 feet of a school?

Also, I sometimes drive on the publicly accessible roads running through the UCSB campus. Is a muzzleloader a problem here?
Muzzleloaders are still firearms.

For compliance with the Federal GFSZ, locking it into the rack would be fine. Doesn't have to be in a container/case.

But on campus is a kettle of fish of a different color. I don't know UCSB, but something like a major street running through campus should be OK (perhaps the school grew to be on both sides, or some such thing), so long as you don't stop/park.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-24-2010, 1:07 AM
Muzzleloaders are still firearms...

Muzzle loaders are not firearms under the Federal Gun Free Schools Act.

Muzzle loaders are firearms under California law, but doesn't the California gun free school law exclude long guns? At least the K-12 section???

Librarian
10-24-2010, 11:50 AM
Muzzle loaders are not firearms under the Federal Gun Free Schools Act.

Muzzle loaders are firearms under California law, but doesn't the California gun free school law exclude long guns? At least the K-12 section???

Oi!

I begin to hate the GFSZ. (It was, before, a significant annoyance and IMVHO likely an unconstitutional exercise of the Commerce Clause by the Congress, and totally useless at either level - I mean, what's not to like?)

CA's GFSZ does exclude long guns from regulation in the 1000 foot zone (which is K-12 only), but not from regulation on the property/grounds (which is all levels).

Shouldn't we give our LEOs something better to worry about?

neuron
10-24-2010, 10:43 PM
Muzzleloaders are still firearms.

For compliance with the Federal GFSZ, locking it into the rack would be fine. Doesn't have to be in a container/case...



It is a firearm, but as a long gun it is not "concealable," so keeping it unloaded (for antique arms this means different things) and "locked" should be OK. But...IANAL.:cool:

thevic
10-24-2010, 10:47 PM
I thought the gun has to be in a locked container and a trigger lock or rack is not considered a locked container....

jshoebot
10-24-2010, 10:54 PM
The GFSZ only applies to "firearms capable of being concealed upon the person." That means any firearm with a barrel less than 16", not long guns. So your muzzleloader doesn't need to be locked or in a case or anything like that. It just can't be loaded, and it can't be on school grounds (K-12). Not sure how it works with colleges and public roads though.

jtmkinsd
10-24-2010, 11:02 PM
Hi all, I'm thinking about throwing an old wall hanger muzzleloading shotgun in the gun rack in my truck just to put guns back into the local collective consciousness. Would a muzzleloader still have to be in a locked container when driving within 1000 feet of a school?

Also, I sometimes drive on the publicly accessible roads running through the UCSB campus. Is a muzzleloader a problem here?

I would think from the head scratching your question causes...it would be a bad idea. Although your thoughts are well intended, you have to ask yourself if it's worth a prolonged encounter with LE after a 911 call from a panic stricken student or staff member of the school. Just something to think about IMHO.

thevic
10-24-2010, 11:05 PM
Im confused now. This whole time i thought long guns must be locked in a GFSZ

jtmkinsd
10-24-2010, 11:13 PM
Im confused now. This whole time i thought long guns must be locked in a GFSZ

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

And this from DOJ website:

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

thevic
10-24-2010, 11:18 PM
Well ill be damned

jtmkinsd
10-24-2010, 11:27 PM
It's a common misconception...when some guys I sell long guns to come to pick up their gun the first thing they want to do is throw on the lock...I ask them why they're doing it and the first thing that comes out of them is "isn't it illegal to transport unlocked?" Even after I explain it to them, the next thing that comes out of them is "well I'd rather be safe than sorry", which I can't argue against...but at least I made the effort to educate :D

M14 Junkie
10-24-2010, 11:40 PM
Hi all, I'm thinking about throwing an old wall hanger muzzleloading shotgun in the gun rack in my truck just to put guns back into the local collective consciousness.

Are you serious? 'Cause I gotta tell ya that most people down there in SB and especially on the UCSB campus will look at that as you being some kinda nut.

If that's your bag, then go for it.

dantodd
10-24-2010, 11:54 PM
The GFSZ only applies to "firearms capable of being concealed upon the person."

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).



A couple of people here seem to be getting way off track. As Librarian pointed out long guns are not covered by the CALIFORNIA GFSZ act.



But. Long Guns ARE covered by the FEDERAL GFSZ. The question is if muzzle loaders are firearms per the FEDERAL GFSZ.

FXR
10-25-2010, 12:42 AM
Are you serious? 'Cause I gotta tell ya that most people down there in SB and especially on the UCSB campus will look at that as you being some kinda nut.

If that's your bag, then go for it.

i'm not trying to see how far i can push the envelope with UCSB, just it's sometimes convenient to drive through campus to get to the beach. as far as being some kind of nut, i'm just hoping that a few people see it, say to themselves, "hey, i wonder if that's legal," and take the initiative to find out more about their rights. I'll probably just end up locking it to the rack for federal compliance - i wasn't aware that anything other than a "secure locking container" would work but i guess that's just handguns in cali.

jtmkinsd
10-25-2010, 12:45 AM
A couple of people here seem to be getting way off track. As Librarian pointed out long guns are not covered by the CALIFORNIA GFSZ act.



But. Long Guns ARE covered by the FEDERAL GFSZ. The question is if muzzle loaders are firearms per the FEDERAL GFSZ.

Well, there is state law in place for this...all the case law on the Federal GFSZ is only in states without a GFSZ law in place. And in the Federal GFSZ there is language which deferrs to State implemented GFSZ laws

(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

Now, my quandry is, CA specifically exempted long guns in the State law...so my guess is you would have to be indicted by a Federal authority for violating the Federal GFSZ Act (much like they they do for marijuana cases), or be stopped by Federal LE for doing something really stupid with your firearm in a school zone, in which case you'd deserve what you get.

jtmkinsd
10-25-2010, 12:49 AM
i'm not trying to see how far i can push the envelope with UCSB, just it's sometimes convenient to drive through campus to get to the beach. as far as being some kind of nut, i'm just hoping that a few people see it, say to themselves, "hey, i wonder if that's legal," and take the initiative to find out more about their rights. I'll probably just end up locking it to the rack for federal compliance - i wasn't aware that anything other than a "secure locking container" would work but i guess that's just handguns in cali.

I think your assessment of a possible reaction doesn't give proper attention to the probable and more realistic reaction of "OH MY GOD...HE'S GOT A GUN!!! This is California after all. :rolleyes:

thevic
10-25-2010, 12:50 AM
Ah didnt know CA had a gfsz law. Only federal.

Learn something new everyday.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-25-2010, 5:35 AM
..But. Long Guns ARE covered by the FEDERAL GFSZ. The question is if muzzle loaders are firearms per the FEDERAL GFSZ.

As was mentioned in post #4, muzzle loaders are not considered firearms under the Federal Gun Free Schools Act.

Librarian
10-25-2010, 8:36 AM
As was mentioned in post #4, muzzle loaders are not considered firearms under the Federal Gun Free Schools Act.

Are you sure?

18 USC 921 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html) (a)(3) defines firearm (3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
I read (D) to mean "an antique firearm is not a destructive device", and that seems to be reinforced at (4) The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. Is there something else that modifies the definition or inclusion of antiques in GFSZ?

Wherryj
10-25-2010, 9:37 AM
If it is illegal, I wonder if putting a 3Dish realistic decal in your window would achieve the same result.

How about this? http://www.fathead.com/custom/m-custom/
(insert your image of an evil black rifle)

M14 Junkie
10-25-2010, 5:13 PM
I think your assessment of a possible reaction doesn't give proper attention to the probable and more realistic reaction of "OH MY GOD...HE'S GOT A GUN!!! This is California after all. :rolleyes:

This is EXACTLY my point in my previous post. As distasteful as it is to us law abiding citizens for this kind of attitude towards us, you have to take the full measure of how we are ACTUALLY VIEWED by the vast majority of the California populous.

It ain't good.

When you opt to UOC or ride around with a long gun in your exposed to view gun rack, I feel sick about it, but we are viewed by the public as being "gun nuts" and you open yourself up to all kinds of harassment.

As for myself, I don't need that or want it.

One of these days when we TRULY GET OUR RIGHTS BACK, I will be the first to CC or LOC. But until then, we are still screwed.

Cokebottle
10-25-2010, 5:39 PM
Muzzle loaders are not firearms under the Federal Gun Free Schools Act.

Muzzle loaders are firearms under California law, but doesn't the California gun free school law exclude long guns? At least the K-12 section???
1,000ft restriction in 626.9 would not apply to a college or university anyways, only K12. Under 626.9, you can UOC on the sidewalk in front of Cal State Wheredaheck.
ON campus is addressed by other laws, and as Librarian mentioned, a place you don't want to go.

GrizzlyGuy
10-25-2010, 6:02 PM
A couple of people here seem to be getting way off track. As Librarian pointed out long guns are not covered by the CALIFORNIA GFSZ act.

But. Long Guns ARE covered by the FEDERAL GFSZ. The question is if muzzle loaders are firearms per the FEDERAL GFSZ.

Long guns are actually covered by the state GFSZ law (626.9 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/626.9.html)) as well. Note that they use the term "firearm" in (b):

Any person who possesses a firearm...

Transportation of a long gun is exempted, but mere possession is not. For example, if you decided to take your shotgun with you for personal protection while you sunbathed at a public park inside of a school zone, you could still be charged with a 626.9 violation (in addition to federal GFSZ violation if the feds were around). While sunbathing, you are merely possessing the gun and not transporting it.

P.S. - Here is the exemption for transportation of a long gun:

This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

P.P.S. - Another oddity of 626.9: you can LUCC onto the grounds of a K-12 school, without permission, as long as you leave your ammo at home (see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3886159&postcount=27) for why that's true). But... per (i) you can't bring a firearm onto the grounds of a public or private university or college, even if it is locked up, unless you have permission. Ain't our legislators great? :rolleyes:

FXR
10-25-2010, 6:22 PM
1,000ft restriction in 626.9 would not apply to a college or university anyways, only K12. Under 626.9, you can UOC on the sidewalk in front of Cal State Wheredaheck.
ON campus is addressed by other laws, and as Librarian mentioned, a place you don't want to go.

UCSB has "open-to-the-public" roads, including public beach access parking and the start/end of the 217 freeway. I'm just not sure if they are in fact public roads with campus on both sides, or private roads with an easement.

This thread has come up with a lot of good info - I never realized that CA law is ok with unlocked long guns in school zones. I'll lock the shotgun to the gun rack, since that satisfies federal law (in case the black powder factor isn't enough) and might provide a bit of security as well. I'm just happy to avoid a locked soft case for aesthetic as well as rearward visibility reasons. I'll avoid UCSB until I can find out something definitive about the roads.

As far as harassment, in the unlikely event that a member of the public feels compelled to harass the guy driving around with a side by side in the rear window, I have no problem calmly educating them that there's no crime. Same with law enforcement - I now feel that I'm on solid legal ground and have no problem educating them as well for the benefit of my fellow law abiding citizens.

I don't want to be "that guy" who violates the UOC stand-down though - my gut feeling is that this is less confrontational and touchy, but I welcome comments on this as well. I think it would do Santa Barbara good to see a few gun racks around town and realize that the sky isn't falling, but if the consensus is that it's bad tactics for the cause, I'll reconsider.

californialawsucks
10-25-2010, 10:30 PM
The UCD campus has signs on the surrounding roads and semi-public(run through the campus) roads that unauthorized transportation of firearms is against the law.

jtmkinsd
10-26-2010, 1:58 AM
The UCD campus has signs on the surrounding roads and semi-public(run through the campus) roads that unauthorized transportation of firearms is against the law.

I wonder...do the signs cite a PC? It is Davis after all...talk about the twilight zone :rolleyes:

sfpcservice
10-26-2010, 8:10 AM
Doesn't the Federal GFSZ only apply on school property anyway? I was under the impression that there was no exclusion zone associated with the Federal law.

Librarian
10-26-2010, 11:02 AM
Doesn't the Federal GFSZ only apply on school property anyway? I was under the impression that there was no exclusion zone associated with the Federal law.

No.

Fed GFSZ has a 1000 foot zone around K-12, and also bars possession of firearms on school campuses/property. It applies to both long guns and handguns. It does not apply to colleges or universities. After a bit of research and thinking, I agree with Mssr Elegante, muzzle-loaders/antique firearms are NOT included - they're excluded from 'firearms' as defined in 18 USC 921.

CA GFSZ also has the 1000 foot zone for K-12, and prohibits firearms on K-12 campuses/property; a separate provision of the same numbered section prohibits bringing firearms on campuses/property of colleges and universities. The CA-zone does not care about long guns - remember the Federal one does - and CA does classify antiques as firearms for on-campuses/property.

Isn't that nice and clear? See the wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones).

californialawsucks
10-27-2010, 9:04 AM
I am not sure if the signs in davis cite pc, but I do remember something written on them. I will try to check what it says exactly.