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View Full Version : Why do I have to be present to start DROS


dantodd
10-23-2010, 12:17 PM
If the 10 day waiting period is a "cooling off" period to prevent me from buying a gun to commit a crime in the heat of passion why can I not call in my intention and credit card number to the gun store and then make a single trip to consummate the sale after 10 days?

Is this strictly prohibited by statute or merely not done this way for other reasons.

This would be particularly beneficial for PPTs as they are often done at a location that is inconvenient to the purchaser. Not to mention at gun shows where you know a dealer from another part of the state has something you'd like to purchase but will only be in town the weekend of the gun show.

bjl333
10-23-2010, 12:21 PM
I guess you have more to "cool off" about if you walk into the gun store !!! :shrug:

If our gun laws make any sense we wouldn't need CGF. We'd all be walking out of the store with our 30rds non-BB'd 12"bbl ARs. Oh Well ... now I'm depressed. :(:(

Librarian
10-23-2010, 2:00 PM
Hmm. Let's see.

Here's the waiting period code from 12071 (3)No firearm shall be delivered:

(A)Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12076, within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application, or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of Section 12076, whichever is later.(Repeated at 12072(c), for some reason) So, what, exactly, is "the application to purchase" ?

PC 12001 says (i) As used in Section 12071 or 12072, "application to purchase"
means any of the following:
(1) The initial completion of the register by the purchaser,
transferee, or person being loaned the firearm as required by
subdivision (b) of Section 12076.
(2) The initial completion and transmission to the department of
the record of electronic or telephonic transfer by the dealer on the
purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm as required
by subdivision (c) of Section 12076.
OK, what constitutes "completion of the register"?

PC 12076 (b) (b) (1) Where the register is used, the purchaser of any firearm
shall be required to present clear evidence of his or her identity
and age, as defined in Section 12071, to the dealer, and the dealer
shall require him or her to sign his or her current legal name and
affix his or her residence address and date of birth to the register
in quadruplicate. The salesperson shall affix his or her signature to
the register in quadruplicate as a witness to the signature and
identification of the purchaser.
So, mechanically, you need to be there in person at the start of the 10-day wait to sign and present evidence of identity and age as part of completing the register.

That doesn't make the waiting period sensible, though.

jtmkinsd
10-23-2010, 2:05 PM
Funny how long a trip through the wilderness of CA law one has to take to answer a simple question...lol

MindBuilder
10-23-2010, 3:10 PM
I see no need to be there in person to fill out your address or give similar information since that can be given over the phone or net. And your ID can be checked and your signature given at the time of pick up. But I can see one reason why they might want to check your ID and get your hard copy signature at the beginning. The reason is that that way if you are a prohibited person, they can prosecute you after you fail the background check, and you can't say the person who called on the phone impersonated you. The new handgun amunition law goes even further by requiring a fingerprint to deter the use of false IDs or the claim that someone used a false ID in your name.

In a few years I think we'll all be getting ID cards with a chip and pin, and then this process could be carried out over the net without there being an easy out for prohibited persons who flunk the background check. Chip and pin ID could also eliminate the need for a fingerprint when buying handgun ammo.

jtmkinsd
10-23-2010, 3:40 PM
I see no need to be there in person to fill out your address or give similar information since that can be given over the phone or net. And your ID can be checked and your signature given at the time of pick up. But I can see one reason why they might want to check your ID and get your hard copy signature at the beginning. The reason is that that way if you are a prohibited person, they can prosecute you after you fail the background check, and you can't say the person who called on the phone impersonated you. The new handgun amunition law goes even further by requiring a fingerprint to deter the use of false IDs or the claim that someone used a false ID in your name.

In a few years I think we'll all be getting ID cards with a chip and pin, and then this process could be carried out over the net without there being an easy out for prohibited persons who flunk the background check. Chip and pin ID could also eliminate the need for a fingerprint when buying handgun ammo.

:hide:

People get denied all the time...nobody shows up to arrest them...the DOJ S.W.A.T. team doesn't hide in the trees waiting to swoop down on you for attempting to purchase a firearm (unless you're wanted in 7 States...and I doubt anyone like that is going to go through "legal channels" to buy a firearm). As for "chip and pin" ID cards...they'll probably have fake ones out before the first one is issued...there is no substitute for finger prints done in person...and I doubt there will be in my lifetime.

MindBuilder
10-23-2010, 4:13 PM
Chip and pin cards have digital signatures in them signed by the secret key at headquarters. It's possible for a fake chip and pin ID card to be made which is an exact copy of a real one, but to make a fake card with a fake name or with any of the info such as the picture changed, would require access to the secret key held only at headquarters. If a copy of somebody else's card isn't good enough for you, the next easiest way to get a fake card would be to buy off a DMV employee to get a real card in the name of your choice.

Because of the private key inside your card, if you were to "sign" your application over the internet using your digital ID card, that would establish beyond a reasonable doubt that your real card was present. And by entering your pin at the time of signature, it would establish beyond a reasonable doubt that nobody had stolen your card. Of course somebody could see you enter your pin and then steal your card, or steal your card and carry out a sophisticated hack to bypass the pin, but I doubt a jury would let a prohibited person off on that theory.

As for whether they prosecute prohibited persons who attempt to purchase, that is an implementation question that probably wouldn't mean much to the drafters of the law or to judges who review the constitutionality of the law. At least the option to prosecute is there. I suspect that the failure to prosecute is largely because the vast majority of denials are to people who honestly didn't know they were prohibited. If they truly honestly didn't know they were prohibited then they don't really deserve any punishment and their punishment is likely to be light and they probably won't try to get a gun after that.

Californio
10-23-2010, 6:06 PM
Its like you own 20 handguns, 5 shotguns and 10 rifles and still have to have a 10 day cooling off period:confused: I get the cooling off period on the first handgun but there is no logic after the first purchase, just a hassle by people that don't think you should have the first one, think of the children.

FatalKitty
10-23-2010, 8:31 PM
Its like you own 20 handguns, 5 shotguns and 10 rifles and still have to have a 10 day cooling off period:confused: I get the cooling off period on the first handgun but there is no logic after the first purchase, just a hassle by people that don't think you should have the first one, think of the children.

you guys keep throwing around this strange word "logic"

uhh... I find that NOWHERE in the california firearms law dictionary.... no where.