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pullnshoot25
10-21-2010, 11:17 AM
So I have a line on a demilled 1917 Lend-Lease Enfield that was demilled in the UK (bastards) with a massive weld through the barrel and receiver and possibly with the firing pin removed. I have been told that this demilled firearm does not need a DROS (since it is not a firearm anymore) and I am thinking of snagging it for the Marksmanship Club @ UCSD for the purpose of an "authorized school display" under 12555(b)(5) and 12556(d)(9) since it is nothing more than just an "imitation firearm" under 12550(c).

Essentially, as long as I bring it onto campus concealed and only display it for the purpose of a campus display, I should be good to go.

Any contradictory thoughts? Anything I got wrong with this?

I know I have mentioned this before but I don't remember reaching any good conclusions on it.

AJAX22
10-21-2010, 11:24 AM
What you have is a dewatt, not a demill.

Or if it was demilled in England (deactivated as they say) and then improted without batfe approval, you have a problem... Unless it was torch cut and welded back together with a solid (batfe) approved mock receiver, it is still considered a firearm and was likely imported illegally


This actually happens all the time, the batfe does not recognize the same definition that the Brits do of what constitutes a firearm, and a lot of stuff mistakenly gets brought over.

RRichie09
10-21-2010, 11:27 AM
I do not know anything about the laws reagrding this but I think it might be prudent to speak with a University representative about this matter and receive permission to do so in writing.

I am assuming you are a student of UCSD? You have to be concerned with more than state laws as colleges have other laws regarding students. Example, even if you are 21 you are not allowed to drink on campus ground if the campus is a "dry" campus.

pullnshoot25
10-21-2010, 11:48 AM
I do not know anything about the laws reagrding this but I think it might be prudent to speak with a University representative about this matter and receive permission to do so in writing.

I am assuming you are a student of UCSD? You have to be concerned with more than state laws as colleges have other laws regarding students. Example, even if you are 21 you are not allowed to drink on campus ground if the campus is a "dry" campus.

There are no other laws or policies governing this type of activity.

pullnshoot25
10-21-2010, 11:50 AM
What you have is a dewatt, not a demill.

Or if it was demilled in England (deactivated as they say) and then improted without batfe approval, you have a problem... Unless it was torch cut and welded back together with a solid (batfe) approved mock receiver, it is still considered a firearm and was likely imported illegally


This actually happens all the time, the batfe does not recognize the same definition that the Brits do of what constitutes a firearm, and a lot of stuff mistakenly gets brought over.

Dammit!

How do schools get away with old 1903A3 drill rifles then? Those don't have mock receivers...

ETA: I think that there is a difference between demilling a full-auto weapon and demilling a normal firearm. There is a ton of crap on DEWAT and demill'd machine guns. Anyone else with knowledge of this?

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 1:41 PM
Seriously, no one has any other input on this?

wash
10-22-2010, 1:46 PM
It's not a good idea. It will only cause a fight.

Put in an airsoft if you want it to stick around for a while.

If you are looking to start a fight, find something that is more of an issue, you're willing to fight for it and that you know you can win.

russ69
10-22-2010, 2:05 PM
I don't want to spread any fud but when I was in high school, bringing a rifle to school was no big deal but it's 2010 now and someone's panties are going to get in a wad, why bother?

Thanx, Russ

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 2:08 PM
It's not a good idea. It will only cause a fight.

Put in an airsoft if you want it to stick around for a while.

If you are looking to start a fight, find something that is more of an issue, you're willing to fight for it and that you know you can win.

That would be illegal, wash. Also, there will be no fight over it. What makes you think that I am looking to start one? Criminey dude.

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 2:13 PM
I don't want to spread any fud but when I was in high school, bringing a rifle to school was no big deal but it's 2010 now and someone's panties are going to get in a wad, why bother?

Thanx, Russ

Yeah, why bother... I mean, the idea of trying to educate people at a university is just so astoundingly horrific!

wash
10-22-2010, 2:46 PM
Still, pick your battles.

Step one get your club well established with a meaningful membership count (50+ would be good).

Step two, raise awareness and determine the existing boundaries put on your free expression.

Step three, lawyer up and pick a fight that you can win.

CEDaytonaRydr
10-22-2010, 3:23 PM
Seriously, no one has any other input on this?

We had a whole locker full of M1s at my old ROTC Det. You shouldn't have any problems, as long as it cannot chamber a round.

Ours also had the firing pin hole welded over...

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 4:01 PM
Still, pick your battles.

Step one get your club well established with a meaningful membership count (50+ would be good).

Step two, raise awareness and determine the existing boundaries put on your free expression.

Step three, lawyer up and pick a fight that you can win.

I do pick my battles. If this is a battle, then I have picked it.

Step 1. We have over 100 members.

Step 2. WTF do you think the prop gun would be for? It sure as **** isn't for Halloween, I can tell you that. This is in addition to all the other stuff we have done, like first-time buyers workshops, movie nights, flyering, SCCC protest week, etc. Surprisingly, many people on campus are supportive. In fact, we get funds approved before even the more liberal clubs do.

Step 3. Don't need one and I know I am in the clear.

When I win, I will be sure to paint a sign for you, take a photo of Mclub members holding it on campus with the prop gun (maybe a cop?) and then post it all over Calguns.

wash
10-22-2010, 4:17 PM
Well good for you.

Just don't bite off more than you can chew...

dantodd
10-22-2010, 4:26 PM
That would be illegal, wash. Also, there will be no fight over it. What makes you think that I am looking to start one? Criminey dude.

Awesome. As long as you aren't, as you said, looking to start a fight then ask the administration and see what they think. If they OK the gun then it doesn't matter just how thoroughly it was demilled. Also, a rifle is, by definition not concealable.

Matt C
10-22-2010, 4:31 PM
Go see the university president, tell him what you are doing and why, get his ok (verbally). Then later, send an email to confirm and get a response (now you have it in writing). Then I think you would be ok as far as state law.

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 4:37 PM
That would be illegal, wash. Also, there will be no fight over it. What makes you think that I am looking to start one? Criminey dude.

Awesome. As long as you aren't, as you said, looking to start a fight then ask the administration and see what they think. If they OK the gun then it doesn't matter just how thoroughly it was demilled. Also, a rifle is, by definition not concealable.


Ive already asked pernission from the administration to bring a live firearm on the campus but I was flat out denied because it would "be a safety hazard."

There are also no policy that I can find or that anyone else can find concerning a display such as this at authorized school functions

dantodd
10-22-2010, 4:38 PM
Ive already asked pernission from the administration to bring a live firearm on the campus but I was flat out denied because it would "be a safety hazard."

There are also no policy that I can find or that anyone else can find concerning a display such as this at authorized school functions

So ask about a demilled firearm.

Matt C
10-22-2010, 4:41 PM
It's SOOO not worth it to *$%# around with this, you will get so much bad press if they arrest you, and you will probably never get back into the school. The club will likely cease to exist. Even if CGF backs you and you eventually clear yourself, the media will ignore it.

Get permission or leave it alone.

tgriffin
10-22-2010, 4:55 PM
PBS, I dont think I could have said it any better than Matt. Think of the good that can be accomplished with you at the school and no fancy rifle to display versus you expelled, the club disbanded... Your life ruined. Live to fight another day.

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 5:10 PM
Ive already asked pernission from the administration to bring a live firearm on the campus but I was flat out denied because it would "be a safety haz

So ask about a demilled firearm.

I'll be sure to ask again.

Munk
10-22-2010, 5:23 PM
What you have is a dewatt, not a demill.

Or if it was demilled in England (deactivated as they say) and then improted without batfe approval, you have a problem... Unless it was torch cut and welded back together with a solid (batfe) approved mock receiver, it is still considered a firearm and was likely imported illegally


This actually happens all the time, the batfe does not recognize the same definition that the Brits do of what constitutes a firearm, and a lot of stuff mistakenly gets brought over.


To fully deactivate this, I'd say find out what the BATFE recognizes as a properly demilled firearm, what steps must be taken to make it demilled.... Then fill the whole thing up with steel, and weld it.

Turn it into a gun-shaped paperweight.

If the barrel is plugged, and the receiver is a brick, there's no way it can be considered a firearm.

I've also wondered about this as it relates to the AR platform. Taking an 80% or less and doing just enough cutting to mount an upper with a barrel blank installed (no trigger or fire control group drilling) and the pistol grip and stock. Mostly for the purposes of demonstrating "evil" configurations without needing a RAW, since it's not an actual firearm. (although I think making the magwell would take it beyond 80%?)

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 5:34 PM
It's SOOO not worth it to *$%# around with this, you will get so much bad press if they arrest you, and you will probably never get back into the school. The club will likely cease to exist. Even if CGF backs you and you eventually clear yourself, the media will ignore it.

Get permission or leave it alone.

I completely agree. I am writing a letter for that express purpose.

Now, if we can just get back to my OP... have I missed anything legally in my analysis? What needs to be done to a non-automatic rifle to make it a non-firearm? Does anyone have any legal quotes or documents from the BATF regarding this?

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 5:37 PM
What you have is a dewatt, not a demill.

Or if it was demilled in England (deactivated as they say) and then improted without batfe approval, you h


To fully deactivate this, I'd say find out what the BATFE recognizes as a properly demilled firearm, what steps must be taken to make it demilled.... Then fill the whole thing up with steel, and weld it.

Turn it into a gun-shaped paperweight.

If the barrel is plugged, and the receiver is a brick, there's no way it can be considered a firearm.

I've also wondered about this as it relates to the AR platform. Taking an 80% or less and doing just enough cutting to mount an upper with a barrel blank installed (no trigger or fire control group drilling) and the pistol grip and stock. Mostly for the purposes of demonstrating "evil" configurations without needing a RAW, since it's not an actual firearm. (although I think making the magwell would take it beyond 80%?)


If my firearm idea does not pan out, then I will get a non functional lower and now my upper to it. That would be awesome

Matt C
10-22-2010, 5:47 PM
There are also no policy that I can find or that anyone else can find concerning a display such as this at authorized school functions

BTW, this is probably what they would use to expel you:

It is unlawful for any person (certain exceptions) to openly display or expose in a public place or a place open to the public any imitation firearm, including a BB device, toy gun, replica of a firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm as defined in the California Penal Code 12550.

http://www.police.ucsd.edu/docs/annualclery.pdf

pullnshoot25
10-22-2010, 6:19 PM
There are also no policy that I can find or that anyone else can find concerning a display such as this at authorized school functions

BTW, this is probably what they would use to expel you:

It is unlawful for any person (certain exceptions) to openly display or expose in a public place or a place open to the public any imitation firearm,

http://www.police.ucsd.edu/docs/annualclery.pdf

That is a regurgitation of the penal code, not school policy. Authorized school displays are an exemption. Last I checked, having a booth at a school event is pretty damn authorized. However. I will be certain to clear it with the proper guys to be certain.

GOEX FFF
10-22-2010, 10:04 PM
IANAL - IMO, I think the only real way to go about it, is explain exactly what you're doing straight out. I'm sure you have, but in terms they'll understand.

Talk to the Administration and explain to them that you would like to do an educational historic WWI display which would also involve a historic "deactivated, non-working 93 year old rifle relic". They wont know what a "Dewatt or Demill" means. Also, even though technically your SMLE is a curio, I guess you could even mention "antique".

Maybe also notify the local PD too that you're in contact with the school Administration about doing a Historic Educational Display, including having the deactivated 93 year old relic. <--This probably wouldn't "normally" be necessary, but in this day n' age, it wouldn't hurt and may even help with the school's mindset if you mention you've talked with the local PD as well.

It's really about HOW you word it and go about your approach.
Stay away from words like Weapon, gat, Boom-stick,Anti tank.. etc ;)
Include words like Historic, Display, Edcuational, European War Relic, Prop...etc.
"Imitation Firearm" I think is a bad choice of words to use and throwing out the PC of course, will just confuse them more like you're ready to go on the defensive.
Save the PC stuff with you for when/if they give you the go ahead.

You should also mention that even though the relic is
"Non working", no type of ammunition of any kind will be in the display.

Put it this way. I do work in the film industry and one time we had an on camera "Fireams Expert" join our production for a segment which also included a live fire. He was required to fill out a nearly 15 page background check (not exaggerating) before he could be granted for the show.
I know that's kinda apples to oranges in your case, but people are terrified of lawsuits, especially a University. Cover all your bases to show them you're genuine.



So I have a line on a demilled 1917 Lend-Lease Enfield that was demilled in the UK (bastards) with a massive weld through the barrel and receiver and possibly with the firing pin removed. I have been told that this demilled firearm does not need a DROS (since it is not a firearm anymore) and I am thinking of snagging it for the Marksmanship Club @ UCSD for the purpose of an "authorized school display" under 12555(b)(5) and 12556(d)(9) since it is nothing more than just an "imitation firearm" under 12550(c).

Essentially, as long as I bring it onto campus concealed and only display it for the purpose of a campus display, I should be good to go.

Any contradictory thoughts? Anything I got wrong with this?

I know I have mentioned this before but I don't remember reaching any good conclusions on it.

creekside
10-22-2010, 10:29 PM
So I have a line on a demilled 1917 Lend-Lease Enfield that was demilled in the UK (bastards) with a massive weld through the barrel and receiver and possibly with the firing pin removed. I have been told that this demilled firearm does not need a DROS (since it is not a firearm anymore) and I am thinking of snagging it for the Marksmanship Club @ UCSD for the purpose of an "authorized school display" under 12555(b)(5) and 12556(d)(9) since it is nothing more than just an "imitation firearm" under 12550(c).

Essentially, as long as I bring it onto campus concealed and only display it for the purpose of a campus display, I should be good to go.

Any contradictory thoughts? Anything I got wrong with this?

I know I have mentioned this before but I don't remember reaching any good conclusions on it.

This is more legally dangerous -- if not to your freedom, then to your academic future -- than open carry. Use all appropriate precautions, including audio and video recording, multiple witnesses (both campus affiliates and non-affiliates, as they have different levels of legal vulnerability), etc.

Also, carry a binder with printed pages of the various potentially applicable laws, rules and regulations. You might even want to put the originals in sheet protectors and have several copies, to aid in your educational mission regarding the law :)

Last but not least, while it is not legally required to do so, it is considered courteous and appropriate to give the UC Police Department a quiet heads-up immediately prior to the initiation of the controversial activity -- i.e. so that you call before anyone who makes a complaint does.


You are up against:

-- California Penal Code (everybody, including the UC Administration and UCPD, although they try to pretend otherwise)

-- California Education Code (non-students, see below)

-- University administrative policies, which can be used to expel a student or fire a campus employee

-- facility policy if you use a campus building

Here's UCLA's no weapons brochure (www.ucpd.ucla.edu/weaponsbrochure.pdf) (pdf) which is full of FUD.

Non-affiliate regulations are imposed against persons who are not members of the campus community by education code. Violation of these rules (ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/PDF/non-affiliates_policy.pdf) is a misdemeanor. (In practice, the violator is usually kicked off campus.) So make sure your non-campus witnesses have read these and will comply.

If I were doing this (and I wish I'd thought of it at the time!) I would use multiple exceptions when going up against PC 12556:

12556.
(a) No person may openly display or expose any imitation firearm, as defined in Section 12550, in a public place.
(b) Violation of this section, except as provided in subdivision (c), is an infraction punishable by a fine of one hundred dollars ($100) for the first offense, and three hundred dollars ($300) for a second offense.
(c) A third or subsequent violation of this section is punishable as a misdemeanor.
(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following, when the imitation firearm is:
(1) Packaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public viewing.
(2) Displayed or exposed in the course of commerce, including commercial film or video productions, or for service, repair, or restoration of the imitation firearm.
(3) Used in a theatrical production, a motion picture, video, television, or stage production.
(4) Used in conjunction with a certified or regulated sporting event or competition.
(5) Used in conjunction with lawful hunting, or lawful pest control activities.
(6) Used or possessed at certified or regulated public or private shooting ranges.
(7) Used at fairs, exhibitions, expositions, or other similar activities for which a permit has been obtained from a local or state government.
(8) Used in military, civil defense, or civic activities, including flag ceremonies, color guards, parades, award presentations, historical reenactments, and memorials.
(9) Used for public displays authorized by public or private schools or displays that are part of a museum collection.
(10) Used in parades, ceremonies, or other similar activities for which a permit has been obtained from a local or state government.
(11) Displayed on a wall plaque or in a presentation case.
(12) Used in areas where the discharge of a firearm is lawful.
(13) A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, or where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device's complete contents. Merely having an orange tip as provided in federal law and regulations does not satisfy this requirement. The entire surface must be colored or transparent or translucent.
(e) For purposes of this section, the term "public place" means an area open to the public and includes streets, sidewalks, bridges, alleys, plazas, parks, driveways, front yards, parking lots, automobiles, whether moving or not, and buildings open to the general public, including those that serve food or drink, or provide entertainment, and the doorways and entrances to buildings or dwellings.
(f) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude prosecution for a violation of Section 171b, 171.5, or 626.10.

Now let's say I wanted to display my black imitation 'shotty' or 'Glock for-tay.' I'd have to lay hands on something that was NOT an Airsoft or anything that has ever or could ever expel a projectile. Best would be to have it molded out of single piece black plastic.

First of all, I would transport using (d) (1) as packaged or concealed. (Extra brownie points for using a locked case, although there is no requirement to do so.) I would not use a blanket, because someone could lie and say the blanket slipped.

Then I would have someone making a documentary about my effort to exercise my 1st Amendment rights to take best advantage of (d) (3).

I would be sure to carry some proof that I was invited to participate in a public display to knock out (d) (9). I also would want to have some hand-outs and information on the specific make and model of the use of the imitation (i.e. for ceremony) as well as the actual on which it is modeled (i.e. historical, military use, etc.)

Putting the entire imitation firearm in a presentation case (http://www.customdisplays.com/construction.html) with a transparent side for viewing would satisfy (d) (11). Gift-wrap the case, take off the gift wrap when you set up your display, gift wrap it again when the display is over and you're leaving. :)

Simple and sweet, and if the case is glued shut, there is no way anyone could credibly accuse me of brandishing. It would be really interesting to bill UCPD for breaking my case in a futile effort to do a chamber check.

The advantage of using a white drill rifle is that of obviously and eminently satisfying (d) (13), making all the rest unnecessary. I would love to lead a team of students from the campus perimeter to the display site, all carrying white drill rifles, and rack them accordingly. See (d) (8).

But now you have to worry about the Vice Chancellor:

http://spja.ucsd.edu/22_00.html

22.16.10. Grounds for Discipline: Discipline may be imposed for any violation or attempted violation, or aiding or abetting in a violation or attempted violation of any UC Policies or these Policies. Violations or attempted violations include, but are not limited to, the following types of misconduct:

22.16.10.29. Failure to identify oneself to, or comply with directions of, an identified UCSD, University official, or other public official acting in the performance of his or her duties while on UCSD or University property or at official UCSD or University functions; or resisting or obstructing such UCSD or University or other public officials in the performance of, or the attempt to perform, their duties.

22.16.10.33. Possession, use or manufacture of a firearm or other dangerous weapons without the prior written approval from the UCSD Chief of Police.


So far so good, as long as you obey every direction from a University official no matter how much it may violate your civil rights. (Videotape and sue 'em later . . .) Now we have to check specific policies of the building:

http://universitycenters.ucsd.edu/aboutus_policies_and_procedures.php

Left as an exercise for the student . . .

Last but not least, you actually have to lay hands on your non-imitation firearm replica object without breaking the law.

PC 417.2 makes it difficult to get replica or imitation firearms in California legally, unless they expel a projectile or some makes it themselves for non commercial purposes. The former is unacceptable under the law and PC; the latter is a modicum of work.

417.2. (a) Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases,
sells, manufactures, ships, transports distributes, or receives, by
mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as
permitted by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an
action brought by the city attorney of the city or the district
attorney of the county of not more than ten thousand dollars
($10,000) for each violation.
(b) The manufacture, purchase, sale, shipping, transport,
distribution, or receipt, by mail or in any other manner, of
imitation firearms is permitted if the device is manufactured,
purchased, sold, shipped, transported, distributed, or received for
any of the following purposes:
(1) Solely for export in interstate or foreign commerce.
(2) Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including
motion picture, television, and stage productions.
(3) For use in a certified or regulated athletic event or
competition.
(4) For use in military or civil defense activities.
(5) For public displays authorized by public or private schools.
(c) As used in this section, "imitation firearm" means a replica
of a firearm that is so substantially similar in physical properties
to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to conclude
that the replica is a firearm.
(d) As used in this section, "imitation firearm" does not include
any of the following:
(1) A nonfiring collector's replica of an antique firearm that was
designed prior to 1898, is historically significant, and is offered
for sale in conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.
(2) A nonfiring collector's replica of a firearm that was designed
after 1898, is historically significant, was issued as a
commemorative by a nonprofit organization, and is offered for sale in
conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.
(3) A device, as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12001.
(4) An imitation firearm where the coloration of the entire
exterior surface of the device is bright orange or bright green,
either singly or in combination.
(5) An instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB
or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring
action, or a spot marker gun.

However, for $30 a person can buy a white drill rifle (http://www.qmuniforms.com/Product/43inch-parade-drill-replica-1903-springfield-rifle/P2071/) with a receipt and invoice from Quartermaster. This is provably not a firearm. This is also true of manufactures from these fine folks in TN (http://www.parrismfgco.com/woodsteelguns.html) which can be purchased here (http://shoptheplace.com/shop/calcap.html) after reading this (http://www.shoptheplace.com/calaw.htm). I wouldn't get the 'cork repeater' because it expels a projectile. :( A buyer can specify that that they are buying it as a theatrical prop to get their other options.

Enjoy.

Jeepers
10-22-2010, 10:54 PM
However, for $30 a person can buy a white drill rifle with a receipt and invoice from Quartermaster. This is provably not a firearm. This is also true of manufactures from these fine folks in TN which can be purchased here after reading this. I wouldn't get the 'cork repeater' because it expels a projectile. A buyer can specify that that they are buying it as a theatrical prop to get their other options.wow the price went down back in 82 i was on my riffle drill team and "whites" (practice) where 50 bucks and "deluxe" (show) where like 100, and my school supplied them ... oh how things have changed :rolleyes:

StuckInCA
10-23-2010, 12:41 AM
Check the UCLA Weapon PDF.

Its has a little tag at the end about "permission must be sought.."