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View Full Version : Do Gypsy Gun Dealers Hurt Us?


roysclockgun
10-20-2010, 8:27 AM
Hello all,
I am new to this forum.
Here in Florida, I regularly attend flea markets. Lately there has been an increase in the dealers that set-up every week and sell firearms. I have asked everyone that I see if he maintains any sort of license to sell firearms. None do! Nearly all claim that they do not need any license to sell firearms in the state of Florida. One dealer told me today that as long as you are "some kind of collector", you can set up at flea markets and sell guns! I have witnessed some of these dealers taking cash, handing over the firearm and no paperwork is completed. I realize that they are operating outside the law, unless they truly are collectors just unloading their own, personal collection and even then, they should be keeping a log of who bought what. However, in most cases, I see the inventory change week to week and I know that these people are buying and selling firearms with no FFL and no log kept.
Does anyone else agree with me that these sorts of illegal dealers hurt all of us who maintain an FFL and buy and sell within the laws of our state and the BATF?
Best,
Steven

stphnman20
10-20-2010, 8:29 AM
I thought you need an FFL to sell guns no matter what state your in.

Btw, welcome to the forum.

Peter.Steele
10-20-2010, 8:37 AM
I used to live in Florida, saw this happen all the time. There is (or was, anyway) no requirement for private sales to go through an FFL, so long as it's face to face. Actually, in most of the rest of the country, you can go to teh classified ads, see a gun advertised there, and go meet with the guy and buy it from him with no paperwork.

That's basically how these people are operating. They're selling the guns, yes, but legally they are privately owned, and being sold privately.

Kharn
10-20-2010, 8:47 AM
You're not allowed to operate as a business without the appropriate FFL, a C&R is not a business FFL so there's always a few people just waiting to be caught selling a ton of Mosins, etc, but you are allowed to sell from your private collection as long as you aren't acquiring arms with the intent to sell them in the near future. If you think someone is in violation, give them an FFL application packet and explain the risks they're taking.

And I'm not sure 'gypsy gun dealer' is the correct term, even the Bradys do not use such a loaded name.

PolishMike
10-20-2010, 8:48 AM
As long as they are not buying guns TO sell them.

zinfull
10-20-2010, 9:06 AM
I guess I have to visit Florida.

jerry

ocspeedracer
10-20-2010, 9:10 AM
Does anyone else agree with me that these sorts of illegal dealers hurt all of us who maintain an FFL and buy and sell within the laws of our state and the BATF?Best,
Steven


No don't agree. I would guess most of these people are well within the law, and wish ppt's were as easy in CA. Also, if I'm going to buy a new gun, that's not just on a whim, I do my research and then order it as it's impossible to find nice weapons at a dealer here in Socal. I can't just go in somewhere and buy a wilson, baer, nighthawk, certain Springfields, even Rugers most times, etc.

Now when I buy a Glock, ya they might loose some money as who cares if one of them has been well fed, so I'd get it the cheapest way possible. Also remember we're price gouged out here, so a new Glock would cost $625 and up, and frankly, that sucks.

Also, and I hope to eat these words but I think you may turn into Obvious troll. I would prefer even FFL's to not keep a log, I don't feel the gov't or anyone should have the authority to keep tabs on me beyond me paying taxes, and I pay too much of those anyway.

Dr Rockso
10-20-2010, 9:24 AM
I've seen the same thing out of state...same guys every week with an inventory of 50+ NIB handguns that never seems to get depleted even though they've been selling off their 'personal collection' for years. Eventually something bad is going to happen, the media is going to get a hold of it, and laws surrounding private sales are likely to get a lot stricter for the rest of the country. All thanks to a-holes like that.

CSACANNONEER
10-20-2010, 9:31 AM
This used to be very common in California too. It wasn't until about '91 that things changed for us. I remember the good ol' days when every newspaper (including the SF Chronical) had a rather large firearms section in the classifieds and most gunshow vendors did not have FFLs. Even though what you are describing is not taking place at a gunshow, it is a perfect example of "the gunshow loop hole" that the antis always beach about.

CHS
10-20-2010, 9:53 AM
This is called by the Brady Bunch the "gun show loophole".

However, if this person truly is operating as a business, then he should technically be a licensed dealer.

Being from Florida, what exactly was your point though here on a CA gun forum?

dfletcher
10-20-2010, 9:55 AM
I believe FL Resident A selling his gun directly to FL Resident B is legal in FL and legal federally. Engaging in the business of selling firearms is the concern and one, I think, these folks could be dinged on.

If they are selling to residents of a state other than FL (or if they are not residents of FL and are selling to FL residents) that is a separate violation of federal law.

Engaging in the business without a Type 01 FFL and (if occuring) selling other than "resident to resident" probably isn't good advertising - it makes for a very good "gotcha moment" on TV too.

gunn
10-20-2010, 10:06 AM
When I last spoke to some friends in Austin (which also allows for private party person to person sales), he told me that the BATFE had actually cracked down on folks who were "engaging in the BUSINESS" of selling guns without a license.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before these regular folks get caught.
It's one thing to sell your guns face to face -- I'm totally cool with such an action. I'm even OK with an individual downsizing their collection justifying the price of renting a table at a flea market/gunshow.

However, it's another thing entirely if you do this every month. IMO, that wouldn't be very hard. Just go to a gunshow, find out who has rented a table (perhaps from the organizer), and compare this to a list of folks who rented at the previous show (or the one before). It wouldn't be very hard to prove.
-g

blerg
10-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Just out of a curiosity: do those dealers charge a premium because no paperwork/ background check is required? If so , it may indicate that some buyers are willing to pay more to not have them checked.

M. D. Van Norman
10-20-2010, 10:35 AM
You will hear about guys getting busted from time to time for dealing without a license. If you’re suspicious, you can always report the seller to the BATFE. I’m sure that they are more likely to investigate when made aware of specific “problems.”

Otherwise, the private-property “loophole” is in effect in Florida, so it’s quite possible that no crime is occurring.

roysclockgun
10-20-2010, 11:44 AM
I posted the question.
Okay, to answer some questions: My 01FFL is listed under my name, Steven L. Ashe anyone who doubts me can look up my 01FFL on the BATF list.

Do the outside-the-law gun sellers at the flea markets have inflated prices on what they are selling? I have to say that in the main, they do. I have haggled with a fair number of them, but they start their prices so high that I cannot buy from them. Example this morning : A cut-down British Enfield No. 4 Mk. I for $250!! The hand guns that I have seen them sell, cash and go, are even more inflated in price.

Why do not turn them in? I have never been a snitch and at age 68, am not going to be a snitch. I have held an 01FFL for over 25 years, both in Maryland and now, in Florida. I do look back with fondness on the old days when firearms were traded freely with no paperwork, but now that keeping paperwork is the law, I do it because I do not want my guns seized and my trading days ended. I had a clock shop in Maryland and sold guns on the side. In order to sell guns out of my clock shop, I had to get an 01FFL.

Why did I post on a CA. forum? I came home angry from the flea market and wanted to vent and this is the first forum that I found that claimed to be made up of FFL people. Sorry if you feel that I am intruding on CA. territory. I do send guns to CA. and jump through the extra hoops the CA. has established.

Are the people whom I mentioned breaking the law? Absolutely, they are. I have read and reread the "big book" from BATF dealing with what they are doing. The selling off of a private collection is a very narrow ruling, dealing with firearms that were gathered for the private use of the owner for whatever use he puts them to. When and if he decides to sell, he may sell them face to face to another resident of his state, PROVIDED that he is not breaking state laws. Maryland, for instance, allows NO hand gun transfers except through a Maryland license handgun dealer. If I am going to give my son a WWII war trophy Luger in Maryland, I must take the Luger to a Maryland licensed hand gun dealer and have him log it into his books. Then, my son can go to the shop and have the Luger logged out to him. Last time I heard, most Maryland dealers were charging $75.00 as a fee for handling the transfer, which I consider criminal usery, but what is one to do but pay IF one wants to abide by the law.
Getting back to the selling off a private collection : As soon as the private seller acquires more guns to add to his collection and begins to sell them off, he is on very shaky ground, as it may be shown in court that he acquired the newer purchases strictly to resell same.

These guys whom I mentioned seeing again this morning, just as I see them nearly every Weds. morning are dealing guns outside the law. They have set up every Weds. with gun tables at this flea market, for over a year now. I have tracked this, because it bothers me that I must pay for the FFL, allow BATF agents into any part of my home at any time, pay overhead for security, pay the $5.00 instant check fee here in Florida each time I sell, put in much time to maintain records and store same, while these guys at the flea market do none of that. My guess is that the BATF is too busy trying to stop terrorists to bother with scoff-law gun dealers in Florida.
Three dealers that I have watched, have taken cash and handed over the firearm, having filled out no paperwork. This I have observed occuring with both hand guns and long guns over more than a year.

Heck, I would love to return to the days before the '68 gun laws got the ball rolling. I used to advertise guns in the Baltimore Sunpaper on Sundays and start receiving phone calls from buyers on Saturday, when the bulldog edition hit the streets. One of my favorite places to buy guns was in the local bar, where patrons knew that I paid cash for most any firearm. I would buy firearms all week and sell them out of the newspaper on Saturday and Sunday. No bookwork at all! Today, the Baltimore Sunpaper will not accept classified gun ads. Of course, they still take the expensive retail gun ads. I lived in the best of times. It is all over.
Steven

RKV
10-20-2010, 11:56 AM
"I would love to return to the days before the '68 gun laws got the ball rolling." You and me both. No reason to have FFLs. Sorry, but it's a tool of the gun grabbers. I can remember my dad walking into a military surplus store and walking out the door with a gun that would now have to be registered in Cali as an AW. FFL gatekeepers are not needed imho. The current system is built on the un-American proposition that you are presumed guilty, instead of presumed innocent. This may not happen in the next two weeks, but ultimately I'd like to get back there. We've done it wrong for so long that we don't have a vision of what right should be like.

CCWFacts
10-20-2010, 12:01 PM
If they are buying guns for the purpose of reselling them, they need an FFL. It sounds like that is what they are probably doing, but they're doing it at a low enough level to stay below the radar. Still, it's a risk.

I believe such "informal" dealers do hurt us.

Btw, I hope someone will change the title of this thread.

Kodemonkey
10-20-2010, 12:03 PM
Why did I post on a CA. forum? I came home angry from the flea market and wanted to vent and this is the first forum that I found that claimed to be made up of FFL people. Sorry if you feel that I am intruding on CA. territory. I do send guns to CA. and jump through the extra hoops the CA. has established.



Thanks for that. There are a lot of FFLs that won't bother, or, even worse blame gun owners for "allowing" these laws to exist. The tide is changing here and we are starting to win through the courts.

If you have things to sell, there is a marketplace on this forum. It is used quite heavily.

Welcome to the forum!

wash
10-20-2010, 12:10 PM
It sounds like illegal activity but without seeing it, I can't tell.

It was legal to buy and sell guns without license, background checks and paperwork a long time ago and I think it should be the same today but it's not.

Now if your local police don't want to do anything about it and you're not going to snitch to the ATF, then there are four people to blame. The guy doing the illegal sales, the guy buying the gun, the local police and you.

We're not all FFL people here. We all have a large interest in the law but FFL's are kind of rare in CA because our local governments do their best to stop gun shops from opening and crack down on "kitchen table FFL's" which I actually think are pretty much the best kind of FFL dealers.

When you talk about issues like paperless transfers here, most people will get a little teary-eyed thinking about how life would be without a 10 day waiting period, "assault weapon" ban, "high-capacity" magazine ban, NFA item ban and discretionary issue CCW policy.

I'm sorry if I can't sound enthusiastic about stopping something that I would love to see as a legal activity in California when the person doing the complaining has it so good (with gun laws any way).

dchang0
10-20-2010, 12:10 PM
Just remember: just because WE're behind the Iron Curtain doesn't mean everybody else is. If we stay this way too long, we're likely to see the world through "iron-colored glasses" if we're not careful, LOL!

Dictators know this very well--keep the people down long enough, and eventually, they keep themselves down. Luckily, there are always some people brave enough to buck the system, as with the OLL, CCW, UOC, legal-battle movements.

Kynoch
10-20-2010, 12:18 PM
I've seen the same thing out of state...same guys every week with an inventory of 50+ NIB handguns that never seems to get depleted even though they've been selling off their 'personal collection' for years. Eventually something bad is going to happen, the media is going to get a hold of it, and laws surrounding private sales are likely to get a lot stricter for the rest of the country. All thanks to a-holes like that.
These people make it bad for the pro-gun camp. In their desire to turn a buck, they are giving helping the anti-gun forces.

rjf
10-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Trade in firearms should not be regulated by the govt.

ocspeedracer
10-20-2010, 12:23 PM
Glad to be eating my words, and from what you describe what they are doing is illegal. However, I still think they and you shouldn't be forced to get an FFL to sell.

Also, this isn't a site full of FFL people, though there are quite a few.

Apocalypsenerd
10-20-2010, 12:31 PM
Roysclockgun:

Do you have a website we could visit?

It just seemed strange that your first post here should be along the lines of the Brady's "Gun Show Loophole" question.

Welcome to the discussion.

roysclockgun
10-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Here in central Florida, I wager that I can go into a number of neighborhoods and put out the word that I want a loaded handgun and will fork over $500 cash. Within a half hour, I will either have the handgun, or be killed for the cash! All the roadblocks and back door obstruction put in the way of law abiding gun traders has not stopped any crime. Mexico claims that most of the guns being used by drug dealers in their turf wars, come illegally from the US. This is likely true and it points out that neither all of our laws, nor the draconian Mexican laws against private ownership of firearms will stop criminals from getting guns.
All the gun laws are put into place by politicians wanting to convince an ignorant voting public that they are doing something to fight gun violence. It all comes to nothing, but obstruction for honest people.
In my high school days, I was on the school rifle team! I carried my Winchester target rifle and a couple hundred rounds of ammo onto the bus to school. Both the rifle and the ammo were in a soft case. When I got to school, the rifle and ammo went into my locker until after regular school hours, when the rifle team met and practiced live fire in the basement of the 5th Regiment Armory. Tell that to kids today and they do not believe it. Even more fantastic is that while roughly 40 students carried rifles and ammo to school, not one of them shot anyone, in school or out! That gentle reader is how things have changed since 1960. Along the same thread, we ALL carried pocket knives in school and no one stuck another student! Go figure.
Steven

roysclockgun
10-20-2010, 12:44 PM
Years ago, when my first wife was very 'puter savvy, she set up a website. You may still find it under Roy's Clock Shop, or Scanpoint Kennels, as we bred bird dogs.
My Dad, Roy, began the clock shop in the 1940s. My son still does clock repairs in N. Maryland and S. Pa. Sadly, my son cannot deal in firearms because of a DWI, along with some other ancient history.
I have not tried to find my old website for years. I have a bunch of ads on GunsAmerica, which is where I do most of my sales these days. A number of CA. people have bought firearms from me off of GA.
I will find the for sale area on this site and put some things up.
Steven

dantodd
10-20-2010, 1:07 PM
It's pretty simple. If they are engaging in illegal activity they are hurting our cause, if they are following the law then they are not hurting our cause. If it's some guy who wants to sell part of his collection at a swap meet more power to him. If he is actually in the business of selling guns he needs a license. I would be happy to have the FFL requirement go away and people could buy and sell guns like any other commodity but that isn't likely to happen and unless it does everyone needs to follow the laws as written.

CCWFacts
10-20-2010, 1:21 PM
It's pretty simple. If they are engaging in illegal activity they are hurting our cause, if they are following the law then they are not hurting our cause. If it's some guy who wants to sell part of his collection at a swap meet more power to him. If he is actually in the business of selling guns he needs a license. I would be happy to have the FFL requirement go away and people could buy and sell guns like any other commodity but that isn't likely to happen and unless it does everyone needs to follow the laws as written.

Well put. We don't know what these guys are doing because we can't see it, but if they are buying and selling without an FFL, what they are doing is illegal, harmful to their communities, and harmful to the broader gun rights community. I'm not a fan of the BATF when they harass non-criminal gun owners for technical violations, but I do support their efforts to crack down on unlicensed firearms sellers and rogue FFLs. Rogue FFLs in particular are bad for gun rights and public safety.

nicki
10-20-2010, 1:38 PM
I personally have significant issues with "paperless guns" bought from strangers.

My issues are how do I know if I bought a stolen gun or one that was actually used in a crime somewhere.

Yes governments have used registration lists to confiscate guns and having unpapered guns is appealing.

These cash and carry non dealer sellers will at some point sell guns to prohibited persons.
It only takes one bad gun sale to come back and bite someone.

Personally I wouldn't sell a firearm to anyone unless I either knew them personally or we did a insta check at a FFL to confirm they were legal to buy.

If I want a unpapered gun, I will build one. Glad to know that there are build parties.

Nicki

dantodd
10-20-2010, 2:26 PM
I personally have significant issues with "paperless guns" bought from strangers.

My issues are how do I know if I bought a stolen gun or one that was actually used in a crime somewhere.


How would going through an FFL tell you if the gun had previously been used in a crime? Are you concerned when buying a used car that it might have been a get away car?

gunn
10-20-2010, 3:22 PM
Are the people whom I mentioned breaking the law? Absolutely, they are. I have read and reread the "big book" from BATF dealing with what they are doing. The selling off of a private collection is a very narrow ruling, dealing with firearms that were gathered for the private use of the owner for whatever use he puts them to. When and if he decides to sell, he may sell them face to face to another resident of his state, PROVIDED that he is not breaking state laws. Maryland, for instance, allows NO hand gun transfers except through a Maryland license handgun dealer. If I am going to give my son a WWII war trophy Luger in Maryland, I must take the Luger to a Maryland licensed hand gun dealer and have him log it into his books. Then, my son can go to the shop and have the Luger logged out to him. Last time I heard, most Maryland dealers were charging $75.00 as a fee for handling the transfer, which I consider criminal usery, but what is one to do but pay IF one wants to abide by the law.
Getting back to the selling off a private collection : As soon as the private seller acquires more guns to add to his collection and begins to sell them off, he is on very shaky ground, as it may be shown in court that he acquired the newer purchases strictly to resell same.
Steven
Welcome to the forum, Steven. This is an interesting debate but I am a bit confused by this post:
Q: You cited that Maryland law required an FFL to be involved in the transfer of a handgun. This is very similar to CA law which requires the same except if from parent/grandparent to child.


Here in Florida, I regularly attend flea markets. Lately there has been an increase in the dealers that set-up every week and sell firearms. I have asked everyone that I see if he maintains any sort of license to sell firearms. None do! Nearly all claim that they do not need any license to sell firearms in the state of Florida.

However, in your original post, you complained about transfers of handguns in Florida. How is that applicable?

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/MDSL.pdf - says an FFL is required to sell a handgun
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/FLSL.pdf - says nothing about requiring a private party to use an FFL to sell to another private party provided they are not a criminal yada yada.

---
As for your comments about "being a snitch", I'm surprised. This is the same kind of philosophy that keeps ghetto areas ghetto. If you BELIEVE a crime is occuring, it's your DUTY in a civil society to report it. That is what makes our society work (vs decending into anarchy). You may call it snitching, I call it prevention of the d-bags taking over. People conducting themselves illegally potentially harms the rest of us law abiding citizens. After all, like it or not, politicians will use the "bad eggs" as examples to pass even more laws that only law abiding citizens will honor.

I believe you would agree that we here in CA are subject to more firearms laws and restrictions than the average American. For the most part (except for the occassional troll), almost everyone here does everything we can to stay on the right side of the law -- hence all the discussions of bullet buttons, "funny" shaped grips, 10/30 magazines, retarded barrel extensions, etc.

I'm sure you can just as easily buy a handgun w/o any papers with cash money even in anti-gun SF.... but that has no bearing on whether or not such a florida handgun transaction is legal (as a one-time incident), whether or not this guy regularly does it is legal (I also agree that this is very suspicious and likely they are breaking the law here), and finally whether or not you should report it (IMO, you should).

BTW, unlike the CAL-DOJ (whom I've called a time or two), my conversations with the local BATFE folks were actually pretty friendly.

-g

bigcalidave
10-20-2010, 3:41 PM
I may report crimes I see, but if its a crime I don't believe should exist, I'm never going to be the one calling it in. I'm sure if the OP witnessed a shooting he would call it in, but watching someone operate outside of some BS regulation? I'm no witness...

SDPatriot
10-20-2010, 4:42 PM
As long as this guy isn't knowingly selling to prohibited posessors I have no problem with what he is doing. Besides, I've noticed most, not all FFL's think they are doing you a favor by selling you a gun at their inflated prices. When I lived in Arizona I was getting great deals from private sellers with no sales tax. Now if he's buying guns at a store one day and selling them at a flea market the next that's a problem. Either way I think it's good the FFL's have some competition. Like Larry Kudlow says " free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity".

Flopper
10-20-2010, 5:00 PM
My issues are how do I know if I bought a stolen gun or one that was actually used in a crime somewhere.
Nicki

Uhh, well actually you wouldn't know if it was used in a crime even if it went through an FFL, so how exactly would that help?

As with every other gun law, having to go through an FFL is merely an impediment to RKBA.

roysclockgun
10-20-2010, 5:07 PM
This morning, after seeing unlicensed dealers sell guns for cash with no paperwork, I wanted to vent. Primarilly I wanted to vent because I regret that by holding an 01FFL, I have turned over some of my rights of privacy to the BATF.
Those guys selling guns out the door for cash and creating no paperwork are probably having more fun than I do AND turning a better margin of profit. Any of their sales that result in a felon owning another firearm is simply less than a drop in the ocean of untracked firearms in which this country is swimming.
Regardless of what anyone may think of me, I am not going to be the one to rat them out. In truth, I do not care THAT much. I have been there watching them enough to be certain that they are not marketing firearms according to BATF regs, but maybe the little devil on my shoulder says :"Good on them", for thumbing their noses at the intrusive BATF and all the Feds who have ruined firearms trading for the rest of us!
Anyway, I did get to vent and you CA. guys gave more feedback that I anticipated.
I am over the venting, so back to GunsAmerica to make some profits of my own.
Best,
Steven

CHS
10-20-2010, 5:17 PM
I am over the venting, so back to GunsAmerica to make some profits of my own.
Best,
Steven

Steven, please feel free to stick around.

Earlier when I asked why you had come to a CA forum it was only out of curiosity. We welcome everyone here :)

Shotgun Man
10-20-2010, 5:20 PM
[...]

---
As for your comments about "being a snitch", I'm surprised. This is the same kind of philosophy that keeps ghetto areas ghetto. If you BELIEVE a crime is occuring, it's your DUTY in a civil society to report it. That is what makes our society work (vs decending into anarchy). You may call it snitching, I call it prevention of the d-bags taking over. People conducting themselves illegally potentially harms the rest of us law abiding citizens. After all, like it or not, politicians will use the "bad eggs" as examples to pass even more laws that only law abiding citizens will honor.

[...]


-g

It is not as though he a unique witness. The police must already know about this and don't care.

cmth
10-20-2010, 5:22 PM
This is an outrage! How dare people act like free individuals who may do whatever they wish with their own property! Where do they think they are, a free country? In my America, we have to obtain government permission to wipe our own backsides, and we like it! I am alerting the authorities at once.

N6ATF
10-20-2010, 5:51 PM
:laugh:

the_quark
10-20-2010, 6:11 PM
I am alerting the authorities at once.

Citizen! Do you have authorization to do that?

v/dBrink
10-20-2010, 7:00 PM
This morning, after seeing unlicensed dealers sell guns for cash with no paperwork, I wanted to vent. Primarilly I wanted to vent because I regret that by holding an 01FFL, I have turned over some of my rights of privacy to the BATF.
Those guys selling guns out the door for cash and creating no paperwork are probably having more fun than I do AND turning a better margin of profit. Any of their sales that result in a felon owning another firearm is simply less than a drop in the ocean of untracked firearms in which this country is swimming.
Regardless of what anyone may think of me, I am not going to be the one to rat them out. In truth, I do not care THAT much. I have been there watching them enough to be certain that they are not marketing firearms according to BATF regs, but maybe the little devil on my shoulder says :"Good on them", for thumbing their noses at the intrusive BATF and all the Feds who have ruined firearms trading for the rest of us!
Anyway, I did get to vent and you CA. guys gave more feedback that I anticipated.
I am over the venting, so back to GunsAmerica to make some profits of my own.
Best,
Steven

hello Steve

I know Steve from a ways back. He knows me under my more ~Dutch~ name :).

Steve - some of what you complain about is called capitalism. You bemoan their lack of a ffl but mostly you're complaining that they're making money and you're not. The problem this creates is it causes finger pointing and feeds the federal troll.

In the ultimate treatise not yet written on the history, intent and purpose of gunshows in the Unites States you'll find the original intent was to cut out the middleman, who in this case is the "dealer", the 01FFL. Americans of libertarian bent, before anybody knew how to spell 'libertarian', preferred buying and selling guns among themselves without the interdiction of the Revenuers, the Treasury boys. You don't have to go too far back into American history to find where this animosity began and how it tracked itself through our history. (actually... that would be the little issue about whiskey in Carlise, PA when Big George sent his boys in to clear up the misunderstanding...).

Those who bemoan "unlicensed" gunshow dealers are, IMO, punks of the state. You're a closet statist who believes a crime is anything the state says it is. Today it's legal, tomorrow it's a crime. Laws are not meant to free humanity, they are meant to enslave humanity. Those who preach "law abiding" are usually conformists who demand everyone else conform, too, or else...

My historical knowledge of Steve is that he's not like this. He's coming at this from the perspective of somebody who follows the rules and that's pretty much as far as he sees things. I know he doesn't get into all the peripheral debate like I'm doing now and none of what I'm saying here is directed at him personally. I do hope he sees some of the issues that go far beyond just selling guns at a gunshow.

The Brady bunch has been on this gunshow loophole thing for a while now and they continue with letters-to-the-editor and opinion pieces coast to coast non-stop. A great deal of what they write are ordinary lies but being the good little soldiers they are they don't think for themselves they just do as they're told and they write what they're told to write based on their little talking-points memos they receive from Brady. Their purpose is to convince the unknowing citizen/voter that all manner of illegal firearms are being sold freely to anyone anytime for any purpose. They will go so far as to claim machine guns and machine gun conversion kits are openly sold at gunshows without any oversight. That is patently false.

You will usually loose the fight when you defend against attacks of the enemy. Too many of you do this, try to counter-argue with a leftist when the leftist is usually superior in using the tactics of insurgency propaganda. The superior method of "killing" the messenger (term used figuratively) is to flank their attack with a counter-attack. Make _them_ the defenders, not the aggressors. (read Mao, Che & Karl to learn the mindset).

I'm old enough to remember the Great Western Gunshows when they were at the fairgrounds on Atlantic Blvd in East L.A., before Pomona.

January 1, 1969 is the day America was castrated. That was the first day of implementation of the Gun Control Act of 1968. That was the grandfather of this whole "gunshow loophole" BS that we have today. Gunshows were all about leaving the "dealer" outside in the cold (where they belong!). The use of the 4473 was the first innocuous step in reducing liberty among gun owners and those who wanted to buy and sell guns among themselves.

There was a time when buying and selling guns AS A HOBBY was an acceptable part of American gun culture. It was really a large part of what is a lifestyle more than hobby. Building collections was enabled by buying & selling guns from your collection. A hundred guns a year? To many that isn't a lot of guns to move around in order to finance a step up in your collection if you collection was Colt SAA or U.S. 1795 muskets (as Steve once owned).

Colt, Lugers, Borchardts were/are high dollar items. In the golden years of the 1950s up until 1968 there were abundant used and collectible firearms available that you could make some bucks to make your collection better. Talk to the boys who collect/ed Thompson submachineguns. BTW, there is nothing immoral or illegal about collecting submachineguns or machine guns. In free states Americans still own and shoot all manner of machineguns and submachine guns, some sub-guns with silencers. (imagine!)

brainwashed - "subjected to intensive forced indoctrination resulting in the rejection of old beliefs and acceptance of new ones...".

Forced via threats of imprisonment for violating the "law". What is now illegal that you did as a kid?

Gun dealers, 01FFL, as exclusive channels for the transfer of a firearm from one private citizen to another violates every argument of liberty you can come up with. Those dealer organizations who promote these "dealer only" laws should be dragged out in the street and horse whipped and at the least boycotted until they fold up and blow away. They are not our friends.

We will loose the fight due to you who think it's ok-fine to have gunshows be the domain of 01FFL only. That is 100% diametrical to the history and purpose of American gunshows. Gunshows are the conservative bastion of traditional Americana. Gunshows free of government interference are worth fighting for.

Don't tread on my gunshow!

Kynoch
10-20-2010, 8:39 PM
It would interesting to see how these guys got supplied. I don't believe most legitimate distributors like Davidsons would sell to anyone without an FFL. So do they have an FFL, book the guns as inventory upon receipt and then do a transaction to "sell" it to themselves or a friend? Each one would still require an insta-check, right? Then again if they prices are high they probably just pass the expense on.

If their prices are high then they are probably catering to those who don't want to be insta-checked. I don't think it would take a BATF long to bust someone like this is they were not using a loophole...

Kynoch
10-20-2010, 8:43 PM
Those who bemoan "unlicensed" gunshow dealers are, IMO, punks of the state. You're a closet statist who believes a crime is anything the state says it is. Today it's legal, tomorrow it's a crime. Laws are not meant to free humanity, they are meant to enslave humanity. Those who preach "law abiding" are usually conformists who demand everyone else conform, too, or else...

Good grief... :rolleyes:

cmth
10-20-2010, 10:45 PM
Good grief... :rolleyes:

A bit of dissonance in your cognition, eh? ;)

roysclockgun
10-21-2010, 5:18 AM
v/dBrink aka Dutchman wrote : "Steve - some of what you complain about is called capitalism. You bemoan their lack of a ffl but mostly you're complaining that they're making money and you're not. The problem this creates is it causes finger pointing and feeds the federal troll."

Good to hear from you Dutch.
In terms of nailing me, you have done it! If you read all my posts here, you have seen that I have no intentions of being a whistle blower on these guys at the flea market, or anywhere else. Secondly, the flea market venue, here in Volusia County, is a big step down from gun shows, in terms of costs to the concessionaires, which may be irrelevent to you, but to me simply means that the vast majority of firearms sellers that I see at flea markets are on the sleazy side to begin with.
You are also correct in stating that I play by the rules and at my age, I probably will not stop trying to do that. I am a capitalist who does get angry at other capitalists who illegally cut corners that I am afraid to risk cutting, because I do not want to have my collection seized, nor lose my 01FFL. I no longer need to generate cash by dealing in firearms, but I still have a passion to do so. I will likely continue to buy and sell firearms (even to CA.) as long as I am drawing breath.
Dutch,you are also correct in your assessment that I don't go to deeply into railing against laws that are in place. I likely would've not been one of the ones to go on the ships in Boston harbor and throw the tea overboard!
Perhaps I can be forgiven for being critical of the hucksters at the flea market, or maybe not. That said, I have generally noted that they know very little of the firearms that they sell and voice a lot of BS when I have asked them questions. One dealer had 7mm-08 ammo that he said "fit" an old 7x57mm Mauser that he was selling! Having them give me dangerous info has happened a fair number of tmes, and they do not care to be corrected in their errors of facts. So, they not only operate below the legal RADAR screen, but they are dangerous. Another of them had an '03 Springfield marked "as is", and it was the only piece out of about twenty that was marked "as is". When I asked him what was wrong with the rifle, he claimed "nothing". When I examined the rifle, the barrel was bent to the point of being a danger to whomever may have tried to fire it using standard issue 30-06 cartridges. So, I realize here that I am throwing a lot into the mix that I had not previously addressed but the dislike of the flea market gun sellers is just not based on my jealousy that they are getting away with not paying the costs of operation that I pay. It is based on a number of negative, dangerous factors that I have encountered when I speak to these sellers. Add to that the fact that not one of them holds any sort of FFL. If the flea markets sales were drawing buyers who could support sales made by FFL holders, then some of the dealers would, indeed, be FFL holders. Why is that? My answer is that the flea market (I am only addressing this Volusia flea market) approaches being a black market operation when it comes to firearms sales and legitimate FFL holders avoid that gray area of gun sales.
Central Florida and especially Volusia County, where I live, is depressed economically, even more than many other parts of FL. I don't doubt that I will see more and more of the same types of gun sales that are accomplished outside the law, simply because the sellers need to do whatever they can do to earn a living. I just do not want to be involved in buying or selling from their tables when the law does catch up with them.
Dutch, if the cruffler list is still going, send me the address. I want to twist some tails again! We always had great conversations over how many of them would really "go down fighting" with their concealed carry, if push came to shove. Here, I run into a lot of gents carrying, but when I asked them to meet me at the range and practice, they never have the time to do that. The term "drugstore cowboy" comes to mind! Before long, we will see another Bernhard Goetz emerge onto the front page. <8^))
Best,
Steve Ashe

NightOwl
10-21-2010, 6:03 AM
I don't understand why some people are so proprietary over the Calguns forums, as far as when out of staters post. I see this happening rarely, yet with increasing frequency. Perhaps I could understand to some degree, if Calguns didn't back firearms cases that had national impact, worked with national organizations (SAF, NRA, etc), and generally act like a player on the national scene.

Calguns attracts national attention. It's stupid to complain about out of staters being on the forum, instead be glad, it means the message is getting out across the country.

boxbro
10-21-2010, 10:27 AM
We will loose the fight due to you who think it's ok-fine to have gunshows be the domain of 01FFL only. That is 100% diametrical to the history and purpose of American gunshows. Gunshows are the conservative bastion of traditional Americana. Gunshows free of government interference are worth fighting for.

Don't tread on my gunshow!

Fantastic post.
One of the best I have ever read.