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Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 4:32 PM
Two sales people at two different shops told me this today. One(a girl) said "we just carry the M&P's because the girls like them." and the other said "those are popular with the chicks."

=(

Not what I wanted to hear. I left the house thinking I was going to DROS a pistol today and ended-up more confused/disappointed than anything.

I was pointed in the direction of the XD's, though, and offered a pretty smokin deal. Almost impossible to pass on if I could just get past the fact that it's ugly as sin.

stphnman20
10-15-2010, 4:34 PM
"those are popular with the chicks."


Even more reason to get one! ;)

mixwell
10-15-2010, 4:36 PM
You're kidding right about not getting it because someone said "its a chick gun?" I really hope you were just joking and not seriously considering another gun because of what someone else things about the one you want.. :rolleyes:

OneSevenDeuce
10-15-2010, 4:36 PM
Wow... Really?

Ninja45
10-15-2010, 4:37 PM
High CDI (Chicks Dig It) factor...I'll take it!

famas619
10-15-2010, 4:38 PM
Hey guns are for chicks, so if you have any you can let me have them.....Get a cane, now those are what real men carry...lol

Fjold
10-15-2010, 4:38 PM
Cool! I didn't know that. I'll have to unconceal it when the girls are around.

"Pardon me while I whip this out!"

famas619
10-15-2010, 4:40 PM
Fjold...LMAO

nazgulnarsil
10-15-2010, 4:41 PM
a lot of consumers buy pretty much exclusively based on image.

zman
10-15-2010, 4:43 PM
Yes they are :43:

http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/SCSA-Julie-Golob.jpg

shortround1
10-15-2010, 4:45 PM
Ridiculous, just buy an m&p.

puropuro
10-15-2010, 4:45 PM
I proudly own an M&P .40, and am comfortable with my masculinity :rofl:

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 4:46 PM
No, I'm not completely serious about reconsidering, but it did sting a little to hear that:o And the deal on the XD is quite good. I know they're both fine, and with it being my first, I'll probably end-up with something else in the next year or so anyway when I know what I want out of a pistol.

gorenut
10-15-2010, 4:49 PM
It really shouldn't sting at all. Don't listen to what anyone says, if you like a gun and shoot it well, go for it. There's been countless times I've walked into a gun store just to have employees ridiculing random people for shooting anything under a 45.

Recession
10-15-2010, 4:50 PM
A girls gun? Really?

Tell that to the 330 Police Departments that have adopted it as their new standard issued carry, and this guy...

David Bowie (SWAT Commander)

http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbdaqpbdscsvcoyxrdixqe/sbcd/p1/sitebuilder/images/David_tac_rifle_teaching-420x371.jpg

His personal carry

http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbdaqpbdscsvcoyxrdixqe/sbcd/p1/sitebuilder/images/SG_M_P_1for_web-494x367.jpg

guns4life
10-15-2010, 4:51 PM
I'd imagine it's because of the interchangeable backstrap making it easier for smaller hands to grip, the big grip is big enough for all the banana hands out there and the mediums should work for the rest of us. I bounce between small and med, mainly because I used different stipple patterns on each and sometime one pattern will come in more handy than the other.

Was the gun they were trying to sell you more expensive, or overstocked? ;)

stphnman20
10-15-2010, 4:52 PM
A girls gun? Really?

Tell that to the 330 Police Departments that have adopted it as their new standard issued carry.
Or tell that to Chris Costa and Travis Haley. :rolleyes:

gorenut
10-15-2010, 4:54 PM
Or my girlfriend who actually didn't like shooting the M&P and went back to shooting my Sig and USP.

Ed_in_Sac
10-15-2010, 4:54 PM
Well DUH!!! Go buy one and it will attract all the "chicks." :)

Seriously, sounds like the salesperson had some good deals on the SD's and wanted to steer you in that direction. No prob with either in my mind!

JohnnyCrash
10-15-2010, 4:54 PM
I think SW has a promotion going right now... not sure if it's the old $50 rebate or 2 extra mags deal or not.

I just spoke to a LEO aquaintance in the L.A. area and he carries a Beretta 92F (IIRC) as a duty weapon and a M&P 9 for a backup/off-duty... we were looking at his new purchase and it looked/felt nice.

M&P's are not "chick guns," but even if they were popular among female shooters, why would that matter? My girlfriend really wants a Beretta 92F and those aren't sissy guns at all :)

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 4:56 PM
It really shouldn't sting at all. Don't listen to what anyone says, if you like a gun and shoot it well, go for it. There's been countless times I've walked into a gun store just to have employees ridiculing random people for shooting anything under a 45.

Yeah, I got a little 9mm hate, too. Some of it serious but most just ribbing. Apparently it's a hobby round:rolleyes:. Good thing they didn't know I shoot more .22 through my AR than anything else.

I'd imagine it's because of the interchangeable backstrap making it easier for smaller hands to grip, the big grip is big enough for all the banana hands out there and the mediums should work for the rest of us. I bounce between small and med, mainly because I used different stipple patterns on each and sometime one pattern will come in more handy than the other.

Was the gun they were trying to sell you more expensive, or overstocked? ;)

No, the gun they pointed me to was almost $150 less!

gorenut
10-15-2010, 4:57 PM
On a side note..

so you don't want the M&P because the guy says its for girls and don't want the XD because you actually think it looks ugly (I understand the gun not exactly being awe-inspiring.. but ugly as sin? thats a bit far).

gorenut
10-15-2010, 4:58 PM
Yeah, I got a little 9mm hate, too. Some of it serious but most just ribbing. Apparently it's a hobby round:rolleyes:. Good thing they didn't know I shoot more .22 through my AR than anything else.


Haha, maybe its time you reconsider who you're buying guns from!

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 5:00 PM
On a side note..

so you don't want the M&P because the guy says its for girls and don't want the XD because you actually think it looks ugly (I understand the gun not exactly being awe-inspiring.. but ugly as sin? thats a bit far).

Well, I'm a graphic designer/custom painter, so looks mean a lot to me. It's sad, but what can I do.

I did really like the XDM a lot, but I'm not important enough to be able to own one.

Maddog5150
10-15-2010, 5:04 PM
I love my M&P! Also when I was at Turners, I sell the heck out of them to women because they love it also with the interchangeable backstrap and the the slide that isnt a heavy pull like the XD. Still fail to see the problem for buying one for yourself. I love mine more than my HK and would be fine with carrying a "chick gun". The only way I would say something like that to a customer is if I KNEW him and was MESSING with him. Other than that, those two are salesmen failures. If its a smaller mom and pop type shop, they could be shying you away from the M&P because the shop is getting an incentive for selling an XD, Glock, Sig, ect ect and they cant afford to lose out on it.

stphnman20
10-15-2010, 5:04 PM
Well, I'm a graphic designer/custom painter, so looks mean a lot to me. It's sad, but what can I do.

I did really like the XDM a lot, but I'm not important enough to be able to own one.
So your saying that you would pick something that looks good but not perform as good or better then the rest?

You should get what ever makes you happy. Not get what will make people happy. Gun wise....

ArkinDomino
10-15-2010, 5:09 PM
They pointed you to the XD? How many agencies issues those? And to satisfy my mall ninja side, did the Magpul guys use XDs for their video? Nope...

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 5:12 PM
I love my M&P! Also when I was at Turners, I sell the heck out of them to women because they love it also with the interchangeable backstrap and the the slide that isnt a heavy pull like the XD. Still fail to see the problem for buying one for yourself. I love mine more than my HK and would be fine with carrying a "chick gun". The only way I would say something like that to a customer is if I KNEW him and was MESSING with him. Other than that, those two are salesmen failures. If its a smaller mom and pop type shop, they could be shying you away from the M&P because the shop is getting an incentive for selling an XD, Glock, Sig, ect ect and they cant afford to lose out on it.

That's a good point. They are a Springfield dealer and carry more of that than anything else now that I think of it.


So your saying that you would pick something that looks good but not perform as good or better then the rest?

You should get what ever makes you happy. Not get what will make people happy. Gun wise....

No, I want the right mix of form and function. I almost went with a Glock because of its reputation alone, but the damn thing just didn't speak to me. Shoots great as far as I can tell, but... meh.


Well, I'll say this: M&P is definitely top of the list, but the XD is right there with it now. I'll hit the range and do a comparo.

Milsurp Collector
10-15-2010, 5:13 PM
http://i14.tinypic.com/3y81p52.jpg
http://www.great-lakes.org/graphics-2/Smith&Wesson/rev-09-01-08/5-M&P9_JG.jpg

Designed in collaboration with Smith & Wesson Professional Shooter Julie Goloski, the polymer frame pistol incorporates several competition-specific features requested by the champion shooter. The M&P9 JG is engraved with the ‘Awareness Ribbon’ on the slide of the pistol and is packaged with two pink grip inserts (small and medium) along with the three standard black grip inserts. A portion of the proceeds for each pistol sold will be donated to a breast cancer awareness charity.

evidens83
10-15-2010, 5:14 PM
M&P9 ftw!!!

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 5:16 PM
http://i14.tinypic.com/3y81p52.jpg
http://www.great-lakes.org/graphics-2/Smith&Wesson/rev-09-01-08/5-M&P9_JG.jpg

Damn you.

sker13
10-15-2010, 5:18 PM
If it's your first you should shoot a lot more before you commit to buying anything. I purchased several guns that ended up not being for me. I loved the way a Beretta 9000s looked and the size of it. I hated the trigger. You won't know what is good for you until you try a lot of different ones. Good luck and find a rental range! I really don't know what women liking a certain model has to do with anything. As one said they prob got steered that way because of the modular grip.

RollingCode3
10-15-2010, 5:21 PM
'cuz of this thread, i just went out and bought a brand new M&P9 with night sights and five mags total..... :p I will use it to pick up chicks in ten days...

Recession
10-15-2010, 5:24 PM
'cuz of this thread, i just went out and bought a brand new M&P9 with night sights and five mags total..... :p I will use it to pick up chicks in ten days...

Remember... size DOES matter.

I hope you got the .45 :D

9mmepiphany
10-15-2010, 5:31 PM
must have been thinking about this one
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpV8DhVFKQFIE8v_GZ-WXnI9-5hFgatniMv_dxO1-7EqwIMO4&t=1&usg=__0JUW-40ttgQpMdLPv0zhAPf5xMw=

as opposed to the purple M&P
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1T8v_sUEo5D7y183LTUB5dO9fDl0TQ dVjSrqjqeuwUbOynSw&t=1&usg=__rKTeBeOis5XyECfpkiNWLnLEKKM=

Droppin Deuces
10-15-2010, 5:31 PM
If it's your first you should shoot a lot more before you commit to buying anything. I purchased several guns that ended up not being for me. I loved the way a Beretta 9000s looked and the size of it. I hated the trigger. You won't know what is good for you until you try a lot of different ones. Good luck and find a rental range! I really don't know what women liking a certain model has to do with anything. As one said they prob got steered that way because of the modular grip.

Luckily the range I frequent is a rental range. I have a membership there, too, so I can try whatever at no charge. I have some experience with the XD, but it just didn't wow me the times I used it. That could be because I don't really have anything to truly compare it to.
Honestly, the one gun I've used that just said "BUY ME NOW" was a kimber 1911. I don't want to have to save up to shoot, though, so .45 is out of the question right now.

stphnman20
10-15-2010, 5:34 PM
Luckily the range I frequent is a rental range. I have a membership there, too, so I can try whatever at no charge. I have some experience with the XD, but it just didn't wow me the times I used it. That could be because I don't really have anything to truly compare it to.
Honestly, the one gun I've used that just said "BUY ME NOW" was a kimber 1911. I don't want to have to save up to shoot, though, so .45 is out of the question right now.
LoL.. the Kimber is always a "Buy me NOW" gun when your shooting it. Maybe thats the reason why I have. :p

Milsurp Collector
10-15-2010, 5:56 PM
Damn you.

If you do decide to go with the Julie Goloski M&P, don't forget to order the matching gun bag. :D :p

http://www.whiskeytangofirearms.com/images/P/SW220073FC_1.jpg
http://babeswithbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Babes_with_Bullets_Gun_Bag_Pink.jpghttp://babeswithbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Babes_with_Bullets_Gun_Bag_Open.jpg
http://babeswithbullets.com/2010/10/babes-with-bullets-gun-bag/

sker13
10-15-2010, 6:09 PM
If money is a serious concern you should get a glock 22 police trade in for like 375.00 plus shipping, dros, tax, ect. get a 9 conversion barrel and a couple 9 mags. Then you have one of the most proven handguns in the world cheap. 9 MM is cheap. .40 is big enough that the 9 is a wussy round crowd will be satisfied and all is well. Seriously.

RobG
10-15-2010, 6:09 PM
You obviously mis-heard the sales people. They were likely trying to say 9mm was for chicks.:hide:

9mmepiphany
10-15-2010, 6:20 PM
:83:

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 7:07 PM
You people actually listen to gun shop workers? lol

chesterthehero
10-15-2010, 7:12 PM
my girl LOVES her m&p...... calling it a chick gun is a very douchebag statement..

RollingCode3
10-15-2010, 8:03 PM
You obviously mis-heard the sales people. They were likely trying to say 9mm was for chicks.:hide:

Oh crap... NOt only I just DROS'ed the M&P but it is also chamber in 9mm...:shrug:

Günter
10-15-2010, 8:08 PM
If Smith & Wesson designed and marketed the M&P only for female shooters, they'd be out of buisness with the M&P line.

HCz
10-15-2010, 8:30 PM
I think SW has a promotion going right now... not sure if it's the old $50 rebate or 2 extra mags deal or not.

It is over, at least for now. It was 2 magazines or $50 back.

J_Rock
10-15-2010, 9:18 PM
Id like to see him tell that to this man. :)

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1370%201024%20Stick.jpg

RobG
10-15-2010, 9:22 PM
Oh crap... NOt only I just DROS'ed the M&P but it is also chamber in 9mm...:shrug:

They are fine for girls. I have no problem with you buying one in 9mm.
Wait, you are not a dude are you;):D


Hey, who are you rolling code 3 for?

Fate
10-15-2010, 9:30 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/15nkqxg.jpg

Cyc Wid It
10-15-2010, 9:45 PM
Well, I'm a graphic designer/custom painter, so looks mean a lot to me. It's sad, but what can I do.

So... why aren't you buying a 1911 then?

mwt1980
10-15-2010, 9:49 PM
Actually it's the Springfield XD that is for women... buying an XD is liking buying perfume at Nordstroms... if you buy my crappy product you get a bunch of other crappy accessories with it for free...YAY!

HCz
10-15-2010, 9:51 PM
I wonder if it is M&P that influenced Chris Costa to do this :p
http://i44.tinypic.com/x3zwue.png

Captain Crunch
10-15-2010, 9:53 PM
Actually it's the Springfield XD that is for women... buying an XD is liking buying perfume at Nordstroms... if you buy my crappy product you get a bunch of other crappy accessories with it for free...YAY!

yup well said

the M&P is a seriously legit pistole i dont care what people say . Also the M&P 45 feels more rugged than the 9mm ... just saying ...

racky
10-15-2010, 9:57 PM
I love mine more than my HK

BLASPHEMY!!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!! :94:

five.five-six
10-15-2010, 10:02 PM
I guess this thread supports what a guy in a gun store told me:


"the worst part about buying a M&P is having to tell your father that you are gay"

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 10:04 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/15nkqxg.jpg


HHAHAH

Maddog5150
10-15-2010, 10:06 PM
BLASPHEMY!!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!! :94:

hahaha. Its true. Sad and true. If I HAD to get rid of all my handguns save for one, I would ditch my USP45 and keep the M&P9. That weapon impressed me that well. I won it for free and took it to the range *****ing about its a peice of crap, probably an over glorified stigma (this was when the m&p first came out)
Pulled the trigger and never looked back ;)

komrad
10-15-2010, 10:14 PM
Well DUH!!! Go buy one and it will attract all the "chicks." :)

Seriously, sounds like the salesperson had some good deals on the XD's and wanted to steer you in that direction. No prob with either in my mind!

yea. This is what i'm thinking happened, more likely.

glock21fan
10-15-2010, 10:25 PM
You will hear this stuff alot... anything 9mm is a chicks gun, blah blah blah...If you are comfortable shooting it and you don't like alot of recoil or you want something cheap on ammo get the m&p 9mm...it's a great gun...

l8apex
10-15-2010, 10:34 PM
It's simple, people who make statements like that are unfit to give any advice on handguns or anything in general about life. Anytime an individual like that speaks to me, I leave for fear of having brain cells destroyed. You can reason with some, but you can't fix stupidity.

hoss_hk
10-15-2010, 10:47 PM
It could be worse- you could buy a nice HK and two years later it is forever immoralized as the "tomb raider" gun. Talk about a girl's gun....

Zachary M. Epstein
10-15-2010, 10:50 PM
wow dude ur a lame

Greg-Dawg
10-15-2010, 11:03 PM
Yup, they are...and Glocks/XDs are for men.

sniper5
10-15-2010, 11:38 PM
Everyone has an opinion. They are worth what they cost.

Droc101
10-15-2010, 11:58 PM
Why do my posts keep getting deleted. Kestryll can you please pm me on why this is happening. I apologize for any offense that I may have caused. Please pm me so that I may not be in this position again. Again, I apologize for any offense or infringement of the rules that I may have caused, it was not my intention.

gorenut
10-16-2010, 12:08 AM
Well, I'm a graphic designer/custom painter, so looks mean a lot to me. It's sad, but what can I do.

I did really like the XDM a lot, but I'm not important enough to be able to own one.

Well, I'm a designer of a major magazine publication. I work in the marketing sector. I can appreciate beauty in all guns (kinda like women;)).

Droppin Deuces
10-16-2010, 1:21 AM
Wow, Chris Costa has a big ol' head:p
Id like to see him tell that to this man. :)

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1370%201024%20Stick.jpg



Well, I'm a designer of a major magazine publication. I work in the marketing sector. I can appreciate beauty in all guns (kinda like women;)).

My tastes are pretty particular with things I have no control over..like other people's designs;)
Ok, it's not exactly butt-ugly, but it's not what I like to see in a gun. Regardless, the XD is right there with it now that I know I can get it for over $100 less. Even I have a hard time ignoring that little detail.

Thanks for all the replies. M&P is definitely still the frontrunner, but I'm going to give it another week or so and compare it with some of the other options.

VictorFranko
10-16-2010, 3:49 AM
Chick: "Wow, is that a Smith & Wesson M&P in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

Droppin Dueces (OP): "Duh....uh....no, it's a Springfield XD."

Chick (with a look on her face like she just stepped in poop): "Oh." (Chick turns and walks away) :p

Sam
10-16-2010, 7:13 AM
You must be pretty insecure about your masculinity.

dwtt
10-16-2010, 9:46 AM
You must be pretty insecure about your masculinity.

It was pretty obvious the OP needs to reach down and grab a hold, but didn't find anything.

PatriotnMore
10-16-2010, 9:51 AM
Along with the other comments, it may be popular with the gals because of the ergos, ease to rack, and accuracy.

That certainly does not make it a chicks gun. The only guns I consider to be for women are the ones colored to favor women shooters, such as pink.

JohnnyCrash
10-16-2010, 9:54 AM
I guess this thread supports what a guy in a gun store told me:


"the worst part about buying a M&P is having to tell your father that you are gay"



HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Great joke.

The M&P's aren't that bad though (I don't own one, but I know some who do).

Droppin Deuces
10-16-2010, 11:40 AM
You must be pretty insecure about your masculinity.

Nice pic of your wife and dog.

It was pretty obvious the OP needs to reach down and grab a hold, but didn't find anything.

VVV

wow dude ur a lame

gorenut
10-16-2010, 11:48 AM
My tastes are pretty particular with things I have no control over..like other people's designs;)
Ok, it's not exactly butt-ugly, but it's not what I like to see in a gun. Regardless, the XD is right there with it now that I know I can get it for over $100 less. Even I have a hard time ignoring that little detail.

Thanks for all the replies. M&P is definitely still the frontrunner, but I'm going to give it another week or so and compare it with some of the other options.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. My friend hates long-slide variants of guns unless the frame is flush with the slide at the front.

Dhena81
10-16-2010, 3:06 PM
I will be getting a M&P 9mm for my mom and one for me I like .45acp but 9mm is a fun round to shoot and if SHTF it would be hard for me to choose which HG to choose because of the whole weight vs capacity vs firepower thing its a hard decision.

Back on topic M&P is not a chicks gun unless a chick owns one just like its a mans gun when a man owns it. Not to mention I'd like to see more women get into the sport for personal protection and because women vote more than men.

Gryff
10-16-2010, 4:39 PM
Uh...a BATFE Special Agent I know shoots an M&P as his competition gun. And would carry on duty if the agency let him.

My CCW gun is an M&P Compact.

The gun store employees are morons. If you want an M&P, get an M&P.

You're Man Card will be more secure, though, if you don't get the Julie Goloski special-edition M&P (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765717_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y).

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/220073_01_md.jpg

Different strokes for different folks I guess. My friend hates long-slide variants of guns unless the frame is flush with the slide at the front.

Different strokes...definitely. I love the looks of the long-slide XD and M&P (although the XD's looks benefit from adding a Heinie-type rear sight).

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/master-blastr.jpg http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/178010_01_md.jpg

Milsurp Collector
10-16-2010, 4:58 PM
You're Man Card will be more secure, though, if you don't get the Julie Goloski special-edition M&P (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765717_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y).

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/220073_01_md.jpg



Check out posts 29, 31, and 38 in this thread. ;)

missiondude
10-16-2010, 5:02 PM
You are right, my wife bought one, and I borrowed it so much that I bought my own... Great shooting gun for both of us.

RT13
10-16-2010, 6:34 PM
It's ridiculous that you even let those comments bother you enough to think about it and post it here and let it affect you're decision. The M&P is used in competition by a girl? Big deal! Jesse Abbot shoots a Glock17 and she kicks *** with it. I love my M&P, and girly or manly to others, I could careless what others think. Follow and use your own judgment always, not somebody elses. Honestly, the last opinion you want to follow is someone who works behind a counter in a gunstore.

Shenaniguns
10-16-2010, 7:05 PM
It's ridiculous that you even let those comments bother you enough to think about it and post it here and let it affect you're decision. The M&P is used in competition by a girl? Big deal! Jesse Abbot shoots a Glock17 and she kicks *** with it. I love my M&P, and girly or manly to others, I could careless what others think. Follow and use your own judgment always, not somebody elses. Honestly, the last opinion you want to follow is someone who works behind a counter in a gunstore.



Jesse shoots a 1911 for S&W now ;)

Mezcalfud
10-17-2010, 8:06 AM
my sister ordered a 40 pro model!

NORCAL#1
10-17-2010, 8:30 AM
I love how some people pick the guns they want. Either because the magpul guys use them or because a salesman steers them in a different direction. Every time I go in to a gun store with a particular gun in mind, not much can change my mind! Some sales people at gun stores are like car sales man- they don't know sh-t and sell you some B.S. that someone else told them!!! If you like the gun go buy it!

Old4eyes
10-17-2010, 9:52 AM
If I wore a pink bow in my hair would Smith give me a M&P?
Honestly, the machismo crap is just that, crap.
I bring my wife into most discussions of gun purchases. I'd like her to be able to shoot everything we own, but I do own a couple of guns she can't easily rack.

From a tactical standpoint if I get taken down and she can pick up my gun to use, we're in better shape than if she couldn't. Having said that, she has her nightstand gun - a revolver and mine is a pistol. And she doesn't like pink grips. But if someone is coming at me and I have to use a gun with pink grips, pink is just fine with me.

hefedehefe
10-17-2010, 10:02 AM
Chic magnet? Ha ha. I like the XD better. I might buy this for my girl friend

gorenut
10-17-2010, 7:45 PM
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/220073_01_md.jpg



Different strokes...definitely. I love the looks of the long-slide XD and M&P (although the XD's looks benefit from adding a Heinie-type rear sight).

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/master-blastr.jpg http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/178010_01_md.jpg

Oh, I agree completely with you. I like Glocks, M&Ps, and XDs better with long slides (let the over compensation jokes roll in :chris::chris:).

Zachs300zx
10-17-2010, 8:15 PM
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/220073_01_md.jpg
You're Man Card will be more secure, though, if you don't get the Julie Goloski special-edition M&P (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765717_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y).

I just showed that picture to my wife. Her eyes got real big was like "Ooooooh I like that! It's sooooooo coool.." :rofl2:
That's the most interest she's shown in a gun in awhile! That's all the permission I need to buy her one now! (of coarse with a spare black grip for me)

RedFord150
10-18-2010, 9:37 AM
Maybe it's a 'Chick's Gun' because Chicks are actually smart enough to buy the model that feels and shoots good, instead of the 'Popular' or 'Cool' gun that all the guys on CG say you should buy. I'm just sayin'...
Before you all start flaming, I have to go now. I'm on my way to the range to put a couple hundred through my Bersa .380. I woulda bought a 9mm, but it just seemed too powerful at the time.

gorenut
10-18-2010, 9:48 AM
Maybe it's a 'Chick's Gun' because Chicks are actually smart enough to buy the model that feels and shoots good, instead of the 'Popular' or 'Cool' gun that all the guys on CG say you should buy. I'm just sayin'...
Before you all start flaming, I have to go now. I'm on my way to the range to put a couple hundred through my Bersa .380. I woulda bought a 9mm, but it just seemed too powerful at the time.

There is a lot of truth in this. A lot of chest puffing goes on amongst men. Guys get too caught up in the biggest caliber or the tacticoolest weapon out there.

ianS
10-18-2010, 11:05 AM
If you're gonna be that impressionable this is gonna be one expensive hobby for you. You'll be swayed by everyone who has an opinion or an agenda. There are only a few people in this world I really "trust" as far as opinions about firearms and calibers (even then I sometimes have to adjust that "advice" according to my needs). People in law enforcement/military and even some firearms instructors have flawed opinions as well. They certainly don't work at gunstores who more often than not are trying to push whatever's in their inventory.

R.Mac
10-18-2010, 11:26 AM
So if the M&P9 is for chicks, is the M&P9 compact for little chicks? Hope not, picking mine up on Saturday, and I'm a big Ally Oop lookin mo fo!

Magnum Lode
12-15-2010, 10:40 PM
If you want an M&P, then buy one. If you can get talked out of the gun you're after based on image, then by the same logic, you should only buy the 60 caliber "hand cannon." Cuz my Mom owns a S&W .500, which obviously means it's a chick gun, too.

MikeH1
12-16-2010, 10:54 AM
Anytime a salesperson ridicules my choice of which product to buy, I beat a hasty retreat. There are many ways or advising the customer to buy a different product, insulting the customer's choice is totally unecessary. It's a sign of a poor salesperson. Unfortunately gun stores have more than their fair share of them.

GUNFREAK
12-16-2010, 11:05 AM
Just get a Sig and be done with it. :D

sd_shooter
12-16-2010, 11:33 AM
Jesse shoots a 1911 for S&W now ;)

No way!

Yet another reason to get an M&P :D

Obligatory pic of Jessie:
(Can't they just clone her?)
http://www.jessieabbate.com/images/gallery/large/Competition/100_3132.jpg

Blackhawk556
12-16-2010, 1:15 PM
one time a friend told me that my M&P was weak and that 9mm was a crappy caliber, I looked at him and said, "let me put a 9mm round in that gun and shoot you in the leg then tell me what you think after" He didn't say much after that. Did the Op end up getting a m&p?

sker13
12-16-2010, 1:26 PM
I hope so. I am trying to convince my wife to trade/sell one of hers for a M&P 9 so I can shoot it.

CHS
12-16-2010, 1:49 PM
I'm a guy and I would absolutely carry one of these "chick guns". The M&P's are great solid guns. Very comfy, low bore axis. I love them. I'm eventually going to pick up a full-size in 9mm because I don't have a full-size 9mm yet.

sker13
12-16-2010, 1:53 PM
I'm a guy and I would absolutely carry one of these "chick guns". The M&P's are great solid guns. Very comfy, low bore axis. I love them. I'm eventually going to pick up a full-size in 9mm because I don't have a full-size 9mm yet.

+1 I want a 9mm Pro model.

Shenaniguns
12-16-2010, 2:31 PM
No way!

Yet another reason to get an M&P :D

Obligatory pic of Jessie:
(Can't they just clone her?)
http://www.jessieabbate.com/images/gallery/large/Competition/100_3132.jpg



haha :D

Shenaniguns
12-16-2010, 2:31 PM
I'm a guy and I would absolutely carry one of these "chick guns". The M&P's are great solid guns. Very comfy, low bore axis. I love them. I'm eventually going to pick up a full-size in 9mm because I don't have a full-size 9mm yet.


Get both and fill them with Apex goodness, you will be happy like me :43:

xenophobe
12-16-2010, 2:48 PM
Almost all of the 4th gen semi-auto pistols are favorites with the girls? How can they NOT be? They're ergonomically designed to be more comfortable and to be gripped and controlled by smaller hands.

For many girls, it makes a full sized semi-auto pistol an option whereas before their choice was limited to a compacts or revolvers.

I love the Walther P99, I also sold nearly half of them to women. Many of them didn't even consider it and when they came back expressed how much they loved it. That's one thing I miss about the gun store... fitting the right gun to the purchaser because a bad first choice will often make or break their enjoyment of this hobby.

RollingCode3
12-16-2010, 3:31 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/cadetcode3/guns/IMG_1078.jpg

RedFord150
12-16-2010, 4:14 PM
....That's one thing I miss about the gun store... fitting the right gun to the purchaser because a bad first choice will often make or break their enjoyment of this hobby.

This is absolutely brilliant!
In the Shotgun World (clays), a bad fit will make a gun worthless. You'll never hit a clay if the gun does not fit properly.
I still keep a revolver as my HD gun because it is the one that feels good to me and has 100% of my confidence 100% of the time. I'll take a good fit (and reliability) over capacity and quick reloads. 6 Hits are way better than 15 misses ;-).

DasBoost
12-16-2010, 5:31 PM
OP and anyone else, to hell with what the clerks say/said. I own a M&P 45FS, fits like a glove and is more accurate than me. My mom and girlfriend like to go to the range and shoot it, but so what; if anything, it allows me to go to the range and spend time with my family/loved ones. Spending more time with them is not a downside given everyone's hectic schedules; yes, firearms brought my family even closer. :D

xenophobe
12-16-2010, 6:03 PM
This is absolutely brilliant!
In the Shotgun World (clays), a bad fit will make a gun worthless. You'll never hit a clay if the gun does not fit properly.
I still keep a revolver as my HD gun because it is the one that feels good to me and has 100% of my confidence 100% of the time. I'll take a good fit (and reliability) over capacity and quick reloads. 6 Hits are way better than 15 misses ;-).

It's absolutely true though. A lot of time girls would come in with boyfriends or husbands and only look at the firearms that their SO would want to have, so they would almost always get led astray "yeah that .357/.45 (or whatever) would be great for you"... then I'd have to step in and find out what they wanted to do with it. Many times I'd make sure they left with a 20 ga shotgun or .38 Taurus if it was purely for home defense when otherwise they would have left with something too complicated, too large or too expensive.

The ones who wanted to target shoot + self defense took the most time. Finding a handgun that fits right is the most important. If it doesn't feel good in the hands and if it doesn't point naturally for you, it's not going to be much fun. Having the choice between Walther, Stigma, M&P, XD and Taurus offered a nice variety that was more important for girls than it is for guys. Most guys, as long as it's got 'cool factor' or has some other desirable trait, will deal better with deficiencies than a girl will. Yes, that does sound sexist, but in the 7+ years I worked at the shop, it was almost always true. I mean, look at all the guys who want Uzi and Mac type pistols to prove my point.

Mickey D
12-16-2010, 8:37 PM
Two sales people at two different shops told me this today. One(a girl) said "we just carry the M&P's because the girls like them." and the other said "those are popular with the chicks."

=(

Not what I wanted to hear. I left the house thinking I was going to DROS a pistol today and ended-up more confused/disappointed than anything.

I was pointed in the direction of the XD's, though, and offered a pretty smokin deal. Almost impossible to pass on if I could just get past the fact that it's ugly as sin.

Were you at Canyon Sports?

vietboy1st
12-16-2010, 8:44 PM
What is wrong with using gun for chicks ? It's all about hitting the target, it's not for girl or guy. I would pick up any gun that can fire to defend myself even a hello kitty gun lol..

Revolverhawk
12-16-2010, 9:12 PM
A girls gun? Really?

Tell that to the 330 Police Departments that have adopted it as their new standard issued carry, and this guy...

David Bowie (SWAT Commander)

http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbdaqpbdscsvcoyxrdixqe/sbcd/p1/sitebuilder/images/David_tac_rifle_teaching-420x371.jpg

His personal carry

http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbdaqpbdscsvcoyxrdixqe/sbcd/p1/sitebuilder/images/SG_M_P_1for_web-494x367.jpg

David Bowie is a SWAT commander now? Did he get tired of being a rock musician/Goblin King in a magical Labyrinth already?

Picture link is broken. :D

That said, I have also heard of people who believe that the Sig Sauer P226 is for girls...


What is wrong with using gun for chicks ? It's all about hitting the target, it's not for girl or guy. I would pick up any gun that can fire to defend myself even a hello kitty gun lol..


Hello Kitty Gun you say?

http://www.kittyhell.com/2009/10/22/hello-kitty-sig-sauer-p226-gun/

Tzvia
12-16-2010, 9:41 PM
Let me give my .02, being a chick and all...

Hi-cap 9mm guns make no sense, as they are limited to 10 rounds unless you bought it and the mags before the ban, like my Browning HP (and I have a lot of pre-ban mags). It's a great gun but the 9mm is not my first choice for HD. It's fun to shoot though... So I will leave that caliber to you guys to figure out why 10 rounds of 9mm is better than 10 rounds of 45acp. :rolleyes:

For things that go bump in the night, I keep my Smith 65 handy- it's been by my bedside since '92 and I've shot the crap out of it. Reloading makes the cost easier to handle. But I am going to retire it from that roll when my M&P 45 gets out of jail in 5 days :D because 45acp is the perfect HD caliber and being a chick gun makes it perfect. S&W should make that pink grip for the 45, that would make it outstanding! Heck, they should make the whole grip frame pink!

fonzy
12-16-2010, 10:10 PM
Let me give my .02, being a chick and all...

Hi-cap 9mm guns make no sense, as they are limited to 10 rounds unless you bought it and the mags before the ban, like my Browning HP (and I have a lot of pre-ban mags). It's a great gun but the 9mm is not my first choice for HD. It's fun to shoot though... So I will leave that caliber to you guys to figure out why 10 rounds of 9mm is better than 10 rounds of 45acp. :rolleyes:

For things that go bump in the night, I keep my Smith 65 handy- it's been by my bedside since '92 and I've shot the crap out of it. Reloading makes the cost easier to handle. But I am going to retire it from that roll when my M&P 45 gets out of jail in 5 days :D because 45acp is the perfect HD caliber and being a chick gun makes it perfect. S&W should make that pink grip for the 45, that would make it outstanding! Heck, they should make the whole grip frame pink!

When you get yours Pm me a pic. Along with a pic of your hand holding it. Im in between an M&P 9 or 45. Im just worried that even with the smallest strap the 45 wont fit. The 9 with the smallest strap feels perfect. I have only felt the 9 and the 40 with small strap couldnt find a store that had the 45 in stock.

yf19ex
12-16-2010, 10:12 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/yf19ex/Guns/IMAG0044.jpg
(as someone has decided to use my M&P for their photo, might as well whore it out a bit)

As someone who carried a Glock 17 for 5 years, and owns guns like a Sig P229 Elite, TRP Operator, CZ75 tac sport, HK USP45 and currently carrying a P2000 (which I don't like), my M&P 9mm is my home go to gun and recreation gun.

I am not going to hide the fact that I was inspired to get the M&P after watching Costa and Travis use it. And I make no apologies for it. I have more than enough firearms experience to make up my mind on what are good handguns and those that are not.

But I did not jump into it blind. I rented a well used gun from Reeds and found it had a great trigger when worn in. It also handled well and was not as unconventional as a Glock was. I was impressed.

I tend to use my TRP operator as my baseline of what a great trigger is. Even though the CZ75 tac sport is the lightest of the guns I own, its a competition trigger and not a duty style pull. For defensive guns I like them with 4 pounds of pull or heavier. As long as the release solid and pronounced, its good.

For striker guns it was rough but the release was very pronounced and solid. Much like a 1911. It was not clunky like my Glock was. The grip with the thin back strap is also very 1911 ish for me. After an Apex Sear and USB, the trigger is like butter without losing the harder pull needed for a duty style gun. I could go to the lighter competition kit, but I think this is as far as I will go with it. The gun is smooth to shoot, accurate and can put down a lot of lead in a short amount of time with an accurate group.

scootle
12-16-2010, 10:37 PM
Wow... is the OP for real? And then this thread goes on for 3 pages with some pretty amazing material sprinkled throughout. It's like the nightmare parts of gun ownership all in one thread. Lol.

9mm is fine for an economical and practical caliber to shoot w/o breaking the bank or learning to reload. Given that shooting equates to time spent practicing and putting lead downrange, there is a huge argument right there to keep proficiency up by shooting often and affordably. I'll take 100 rounds of 9mm over your 50 rounds of .45 any day!

I love how comments about the masculinity of a given make of pistol turned into a lot of discussion about the masculinity (or lack thereof) of the various calibers though. Awesome!

As an aside, the M&P 45 backstraps are a step bigger than the M&P 9/40. e.g. the "Medium" strap on the M&P45 is the same as the "Large" on the M&P 9/40. This is simply due to the physical size of the .45 rounds in a double stack and nothing to do with how feminine one model is over the other... :p

Revolverhawk
12-17-2010, 12:02 AM
Maybe it's a 'Chick's Gun' because Chicks are actually smart enough to buy the model that feels and shoots good, instead of the 'Popular' or 'Cool' gun that all the guys on CG say you should buy. I'm just sayin'...
Before you all start flaming, I have to go now. I'm on my way to the range to put a couple hundred through my Bersa .380. I woulda bought a 9mm, but it just seemed too powerful at the time.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

Massad Ayoob tends to prefer the 20 gauge shotgun over the 12 gauge. He is not someone who goes with the most powerful possible cartridge. And he really doesn't like the 9mm parabellum as a defense cartridge, because he believes it is too weak.

I think this idea that the 9mm parabellum may not be able to consistently create hydrostatic shock should be looked at seriously, rather than simply brushed off as machismo. The general opinion from Massad Ayoob seems to be that while the 9mm parabellum can stun a target, it doesn't do it consistently enough.

j1133s
12-17-2010, 12:49 AM
Two sales people at two different shops told me this today. One(a girl) said "we just carry the M&P's because the girls like them." and the other said "those are popular with the chicks."

=(

Not what I wanted to hear. I left the house thinking I was going to DROS a pistol today and ended-up more confused/disappointed than anything.

I was pointed in the direction of the XD's, though, and offered a pretty smokin deal. Almost impossible to pass on if I could just get past the fact that it's ugly as sin.

They are right. Seriously, the only people I see shooting M&Ps are either girls or sissy guys. You can check the "F" box at your next competition.

You go buy an M&P and you loose your male card.

benbangui
12-17-2010, 12:55 AM
Two sales people at two different shops told me this today. One(a girl) said "we just carry the M&P's because the girls like them." and the other said "those are popular with the chicks."

=(

Not what I wanted to hear. I left the house thinking I was going to DROS a pistol today and ended-up more confused/disappointed than anything.

I was pointed in the direction of the XD's, though, and offered a pretty smokin deal. Almost impossible to pass on if I could just get past the fact that it's ugly as sin.

i would take an M&P over a XD anyday...

WWDHD?
12-17-2010, 12:56 AM
The 9mm M&P is a good range gun for almost anyone and 9mm is an easy to find and affordable cartridge. And if the women in your life find it appealing to them them maybe they'll go shoot with you more often. Much better to be able to hit the 10 ring with a 9mm than miss with a .45.
I bought my M&P because it was about the same cost as a Glock with a better grip, better sights(for me) and it is very left-handed friendly. Also US made! I tried the XD and it was good too but liked the M&P more. Also considered the Beretta PX4 but didn't like the small safety lever.
You could buy the M&P from Bud's and DROS it from the shop that put that bug in your ear about the M&P being a chics gun. I don't think they will ever be your BFF anyways.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 8:23 AM
Let me give my .02, being a chick and all...

Hi-cap 9mm guns make no sense, as they are limited to 10 rounds unless you bought it and the mags before the ban, like my Browning HP (and I have a lot of pre-ban mags). It's a great gun but the 9mm is not my first choice for HD. It's fun to shoot though... So I will leave that caliber to you guys to figure out why 10 rounds of 9mm is better than 10 rounds of 45acp. :rolleyes:

For things that go bump in the night, I keep my Smith 65 handy- it's been by my bedside since '92 and I've shot the crap out of it. Reloading makes the cost easier to handle. But I am going to retire it from that roll when my M&P 45 gets out of jail in 5 days :D because 45acp is the perfect HD caliber and being a chick gun makes it perfect. S&W should make that pink grip for the 45, that would make it outstanding! Heck, they should make the whole grip frame pink!



When ammo was half what it was now (WWB) and I had more free time just a few years back, I've shot over 12,000+ rounds a year mainly of 9mm with 1/4 of that .45 acp and will tell you that the difference in price adds up fast. When you shot a ~1,200 round weekend class it not only adds up price wise, but it takes a toll on your body.

You're not comfortable for carrying 9mm since you're not aware of the minor differences ballistically but I trust it with the ammo I carry, my mindset and ability.

CSACANNONEER
12-17-2010, 8:30 AM
I heard that VW Jettas come with a secret compartment for a M&P and an extra lipstick.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 8:36 AM
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

Massad Ayoob tends to prefer the 20 gauge shotgun over the 12 gauge. He is not someone who goes with the most powerful possible cartridge. And he really doesn't like the 9mm parabellum as a defense cartridge, because he believes it is too weak.

I think this idea that the 9mm parabellum may not be able to consistently create hydrostatic shock should be looked at seriously, rather than simply brushed off as machismo. The general opinion from Massad Ayoob seems to be that while the 9mm parabellum can stun a target, it doesn't do it consistently enough.


You're kidding right???

scootle
12-17-2010, 9:17 AM
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

Massad Ayoob tends to prefer the 20 gauge shotgun over the 12 gauge. He is not someone who goes with the most powerful possible cartridge. And he really doesn't like the 9mm parabellum as a defense cartridge, because he believes it is too weak.

I think this idea that the 9mm parabellum may not be able to consistently create hydrostatic shock should be looked at seriously, rather than simply brushed off as machismo. The general opinion from Massad Ayoob seems to be that while the 9mm parabellum can stun a target, it doesn't do it consistently enough.

You're kidding right???

uh oh... :popcorn:

Californio
12-17-2010, 10:58 AM
I was up at Apex Tactical yesterday picking up a revolver and asked Randy if I could see one of his M&P's, it was an Officer Carry .40 which was set at 5 lbs. I was impressed at the butter smooth trigger and reset. It had some customization to the grip surface and felt really good in my hand. I only have 1911's and one XD45 for HD but would certainly consider the M&P with the Apex Tactical Kit a keeper.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 11:45 AM
I was up at Apex Tactical yesterday picking up a revolver and asked Randy if I could see one of his M&P's, it was an Officer Carry .40 which was set at 5 lbs. I was impressed at the butter smooth trigger and reset. It had some customization to the grip surface and felt really good in my hand. I only have 1911's and one XD45 for HD but would certainly consider the M&P with the Apex Tactical Kit a keeper.



They are addictive :43:

SinnerBoy
12-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Far too many "salesmen" I've encountered at gun shops have no clue about how to sell anything. I don't know where they find these people.

I love my M&P! Also when I was at Turners, I sell the heck out of them to women because they love it also with the interchangeable backstrap and the the slide that isnt a heavy pull like the XD. Still fail to see the problem for buying one for yourself. I love mine more than my HK and would be fine with carrying a "chick gun". The only way I would say something like that to a customer is if I KNEW him and was MESSING with him. Other than that, those two are salesmen failures. If its a smaller mom and pop type shop, they could be shying you away from the M&P because the shop is getting an incentive for selling an XD, Glock, Sig, ect ect and they cant afford to lose out on it.

B Strong
12-17-2010, 12:23 PM
I'm not a fan of S. & W. autos in general, but who cares who likes a particular firearm or who it is marketed too?

Ladysmith S & W wheelguns are grat. I've got a 3" J frame LS, and I couldn't care less about anybody's opinion on it other than my own.

I'd draw the line at anything finished in pink, but other than that my only critera is quality and reliability.

Two sales people at two different shops told me this today. One(a girl) said "we just carry the M&P's because the girls like them." and the other said "those are popular with the chicks."

=(

Not what I wanted to hear. I left the house thinking I was going to DROS a pistol today and ended-up more confused/disappointed than anything.

I was pointed in the direction of the XD's, though, and offered a pretty smokin deal. Almost impossible to pass on if I could just get past the fact that it's ugly as sin.

tacticalcity
12-17-2010, 12:27 PM
They have more sex appeal looks wise than a Glock. So when their husband pushes them towards a Glock, and they hate the looks, the sales rep can offer a more attractive option the husband won't fight against as much as he would say a DA/SA like a Sig or Beretta? Just guessing but that would make sense to me.

I do like the idea that the M&P is now the VW Rabbit of the gun world. While I would never outright bash somebody's gun just for the sake of bashing their gun, some M&P owners can be rather nasty towards Glock lovers like myself. So the next time they get out of line I can say, "at least my Glock is not a chick gun!" ;)

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 12:57 PM
They have more sex appeal looks wise than a Glock. So when their husband pushes them towards a Glock, and they hate the looks, the sales rep can offer a more attractive option the husband won't fight against as much as he would say a DA/SA like a Sig or Beretta? Just guessing but that would make sense to me.

I do like the idea that the M&P is now the VW Rabbit of the gun world. While I would never outright bash somebody's gun just for the sake of bashing their gun, some M&P owners can be rather nasty towards Glock lovers like myself. So the next time they get out of line I can say, "at least my Glock is not a chick gun!" ;)


What can I say, chicks love my gun :D

ianS
12-17-2010, 1:13 PM
When I showed all the 9mm pistols my wife could possibly get (Glock, M&P, XD, SIG Sauers, H&K, Walther P99 etc) her remarks exactly were:

"Why do they all have to be so ugly?"
"They all look the same"
"I don't care, pick one for me then".

Gave me some perspective and probably how most people who aren't into guns thinks. Her eyes only perked up at the SIG P232 and Beretta 92FS Inox (too big for her hands).

Revolverhawk
12-17-2010, 1:43 PM
You're kidding right???

I did not say the 9mm does not create hydrostatic shock/stun a target, simply that according to many soldiers and police, it does not do it consistently. While you should not rely on one shot stops unless you have to, there are some situations where you have to. When you get attacked by 2 or more attackers, proper procedure is to shoot each target once, in succession, then shoot each of them again, in succesion. If you spend your time shooting a single target multiple times in a row, that target's friends can shoot you. If you shoot each once in succession, and your weapon fails to create hydrostatic shock/stun the targets, they still shoot you.

In some scenarios you are forced to rely on the ability of a single round to create hydrostatic shock, and it is the opinion of many soldiers and police officers that the 9mm does not do it consistently, due to differences between various human beings in terms of resistance to hydrostatic shock. Simply put: many human beings can and will be stunned by a 9mm parabellum, but many won't. The general opinion seems to be that the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP simply stun a target more consistently.

Army
12-17-2010, 1:48 PM
One of my favorite handguns was the 9mm S&W Ladysmith......well, OK, it was my wifes gun. But I borrowed it all the time :D

Army
12-17-2010, 1:52 PM
I did not say the 9mm does not create hydrostatic shock, simply that according to many soldiers and police, it does not do it consistently.

You cannot rely on any military reports of 9mm performance to concur with any Police reports of 9mm performance.

As Soldiers, we are obligated to use FMJ only in handguns. FMJ is a very poor stopper in any caliber. 9mm FMJ is infamous for zipping through bad guys with little real damage. .45 FMJ does only a little more damage, but does leave a larger hole.

Cops can use any form of bullet authorized by their department.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 1:57 PM
I did not say the 9mm does not create hydrostatic shock, simply that according to many soldiers and police, it does not do it consistently. While you should not rely on one shot stops unless you have to, there are some situations where you have to. When you get attacked by 2 or more attackers, proper procedure is to shoot each target once, in succession, then shoot each of them again, in succesion. If you spend your time shooting a single target multiple times, that target's friends can shoot you. If you shoot each once in succession, and your weapon fails to create hydrostatic shock, they still shoot you.

In some scenarios you are forced to rely on the ability of a single round to create hydrostatic shock, and it is the opinion of many soldiers and police officers that it does not do it consistently.

This cut and paste generally sums it up for me:

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

-Agent Urey Patrick FBI from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"


I believe that in calibers that generate 1000ft-lbs or more of kinetic energy that there is significant enough temporary cavity stretch to cause trauma to surrounding organs that are not directly hit by the projectile or projectile fragments. However, even in a .44magnum which generates around 1000ft-lbs of energy, officers have had suspects take several hits to the torso and not immediately stop what they were doing.

There is really no reliable way to measure or demonstrate such effects even in real world shootings because of the great many factors that can corrupt the data. What can be measured and is the surest way to ensure good effects is to physically remove the largest swath of the bad guy's anatomy as possible from vital regions of the body. So.......you want a well placed, large, deep penetrating hole.

The advice I usually give is for someone to shoot the largest caliber that they can shoot well in a timed course of fire in realistic scenarios. This usually means the selection of a common service caliber like 9mm, .40S&W, or .45acp. Going with more "powerful" handgun calibers offer no "measurable" improvement.






IMO Hydrostatic shock is not a factor I rely on when it comes to defensive handguns as they do not create the velocity to make a difference. Soldiers use FMJ's and we're allowed better defensive handgun rounds then you see on the battlefield. The article you posted is a perspective on a very old article. I'm not impressed with terms like "stopping power" or "hydrostatic shock, I rather look at the ballistic data of given defensive rounds shot through various mediums and choose from there.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 2:01 PM
Simply put: many human beings can and will be stunned by a 9mm parabellum, but many won't. The general opinion seems to be that the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP simply stun a target more consistently.


Opinion of who? Hollywood? You want to read up on a real expert on Terminal Ballistics then here:
DocGKR
http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=91

sd_shooter
12-17-2010, 2:26 PM
I did not say the 9mm does not create hydrostatic shock/stun a target, simply that according to many soldiers and police, it does not do it consistently. While you should not rely on one shot stops unless you have to, there are some situations where you have to. When you get attacked by 2 or more attackers, proper procedure is to shoot each target once, in succession, then shoot each of them again, in succesion. If you spend your time shooting a single target multiple times in a row, that target's friends can shoot you. If you shoot each once in succession, and your weapon fails to create hydrostatic shock/stun the targets, they still shoot you.

In some scenarios you are forced to rely on the ability of a single round to create hydrostatic shock, and it is the opinion of many soldiers and police officers that the 9mm does not do it consistently, due to differences between various human beings in terms of resistance to hydrostatic shock. Simply put: many human beings can and will be stunned by a 9mm parabellum, but many won't. The general opinion seems to be that the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP simply stun a target more consistently.

I call troll.

But I'll bite - what makes you think any 9mm round will cause hydrostatic shock?

Revolverhawk
12-17-2010, 2:30 PM
This cut and paste generally sums it up for me:

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

-Agent Urey Patrick FBI from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"


I believe that in calibers that generate 1000ft-lbs or more of kinetic energy that there is significant enough temporary cavity stretch to cause trauma to surrounding organs that are not directly hit by the projectile or projectile fragments. However, even in a .44magnum which generates around 1000ft-lbs of energy, officers have had suspects take several hits to the torso and not immediately stop what they were doing.

There is really no reliable way to measure or demonstrate such effects even in real world shootings because of the great many factors that can corrupt the data. What can be measured and is the surest way to ensure good effects is to physically remove the largest swath of the bad guy's anatomy as possible from vital regions of the body. So.......you want a well placed, large, deep penetrating hole.

The advice I usually give is for someone to shoot the largest caliber that they can shoot well in a timed course of fire in realistic scenarios. This usually means the selection of a common service caliber like 9mm, .40S&W, or .45acp. Going with more "powerful" handgun calibers offer no "measurable" improvement.






IMO Hydrostatic shock is not a factor I rely on when it comes to defensive handguns as they do not create the velocity to make a difference. Soldiers use FMJ's and we're allowed better defensive handgun rounds then you see on the battlefield. The article you posted is a perspective on a very old article. I'm not impressed with terms like "stopping power" or "hydrostatic shock, I rather look at the ballistic data of given defensive rounds shot through various mediums and choose from there.

As I recall, from a similar FBI Briefing, Agent Urey said that the 10mm and the .45 ACP vastly outperformed the 9mm by a large margin. He explicitly said, and I quote, "It is just nowhere near as effective as the 10mm and .45 offerings, and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throught all the testing we have done over the past two years."

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

That said, your belief that the .357 magnum does not produce hydrostatic shock is widely contested, so I hope you will forgive me if I disagree with. I don't doubt that some people were shot with a .44 magnum and did not stop what they were doing, choice of ammunition has a huge impact on the effectiveness of the cartridge. If a bullet doesn't deliver the energy to the target properly, then even a cartridge with a staggering amount of power can fail to stun someone. For example, the 125 grain hollowpoints are the most successful .357 magnum loads to my knowledge, other loads aren't so successful. How well a cartridge applies energy to it's target has a huge impact on it's performance.

That said, on the subject of stopping power: http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 2:32 PM
As I recall, from that exact same FBI Report, Agent Urey said that the 10mm and the .45 ACP vastly outperformed the 9mm by a large margin. He explicitly said, and I quote, "It is just nowhere near as effective as the 10mm and .45 offerings, and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throught all the testing we have done over the past two years."


9mm rounds sucked then, now there's only a minor difference between modern 9/.40/.45.


BTW, you obviously skipped over the link I provided.

Here's a basic sample of DocGKR:

Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads
When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

http://www.m4carbine.net/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 680x611.http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 160 & 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Revolverhawk
12-17-2010, 2:50 PM
I call troll.

But I'll bite - what makes you think any 9mm round will cause hydrostatic shock?

To my knowledge, the longer barrel of a Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun can add about 50% to the muzzle velocity, and overall stopping power. Using overpressure rounds, roughly 400 foot pounds from a handgun, you can get about 600 foot pounds from an MP5 submachine gun. You can get similar performance to a light .357 magnum load hypothetically. From a handgun...not so much. And I didn't "skip over" the link you provided Shenaniguns, I was just busy hunting down research on google when you decided to add it.

That said, I will admit that 9mm parabellums of today are probably much more powerful than they were in the past, and a lot of the data we have been quoting is out of date. Hence, I am willing apologize, and agree that the current 9mm parabellum is probably good enough.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 2:52 PM
To my knowledge, the longer barrel of a Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun can add about 50% to the muzzle velocity, and overall stopping power. Using overpressure rounds, roughly 400 foot pounds from a handgun, you can get about 600 foot pounds from an MP5 submachine gun. You can get similar performance to a light .357 magnum load hypothetically. From a handgun...well, like I said above, Agent Urey said that the 9mm was consistently outperformed by a vast margin.


In 1988, modern ammo is much better.

ianS
12-17-2010, 3:51 PM
In 1988, modern ammo is much better.

And the understanding of ballistics and the relative effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness of various handgun calibers is much better now. Unfortunately those tall tales and myths that have been handed down for generations still persist.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 3:52 PM
And the understanding of ballistics and the relative effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness of various handgun rounds is much better now. Unfortunately those tall tales and myths that have been handed down for generations still persist.


Correct!

ianS
12-17-2010, 3:55 PM
Correct!

We agree on too many things Shenaniguns. We need to find something to argue about.

Shenaniguns
12-17-2010, 5:40 PM
We have everyone else lol

ColdDeadHands1
12-17-2010, 6:12 PM
M&P's are for girls only? Oh no.

I better head the the Sale forum, I'm about to have two sweet Apex DCAEK'd M&P's for sale.. Now, who has the best prices on Glocks?:D

Magnum Lode
12-18-2010, 3:40 AM
You cannot rely on any military reports of 9mm performance to concur with any Police reports of 9mm performance.

As Soldiers, we are obligated to use FMJ only in handguns. FMJ is a very poor stopper in any caliber. 9mm FMJ is infamous for zipping through bad guys with little real damage. .45 FMJ does only a little more damage, but does leave a larger hole.

I must concur. When I took the training for Concealed Carry, one of the major points discussed was ammunition. Keep in mind, I'm in Michigan, not California, so the laws are a bit different, but the basic principles are not.

For personal protection, they said to absolutely never use FMJ ammo. Not only will it not stop your attacker unless you happen to rupture their heart, it will definitely pass right through them, and potentially injure or kill someone in the next room - who you probably don't want to hurt. It can even ricochet off bones on its way through. Sure it's fine for the military in automatic weapons - it may not leave big holes, but at least with a full auto you can leave a lot of little holes in a fraction of a second. But since civilians here are not even allowed to own a full auto, that doesn't do us much good.

They recommended using an ammo that will spread out on impact into the largest possible projectile without fragmenting. There used to be available an ammo called Hydroshock (I think). I don't know if it is still available. It was semi-jacketed with a split hollow point. It could easily spread out to three times its original diameter. With enough force behind it, that bullet could not only rupture the heart, it could remove most of the heart from the body. It could shatter the spine. The image put up by Shenaniguns is an excellent illustration of this. Somewhere around here I have a book the size of Texas that discusses the principles of stopping or knock-down power, as well as comparing a boatload of different ammos in guns from a .22 all the way up to the .45 Magnum. The ammos that had the most consistent performance in personal protection applications were the .357 and the .44 using a semi-jacketed bullet like the ones pictured in Shenaniguns photo.

A 9mm obviously has less power than a .40 or .45. That isn't rocket science. That is why many of the police departments here do not use them. But not all gun owners are comfortable shooting a larger gun. And that may be why the 9mm M&P is often thought of as a "chick gun." For personal protection, you should naturally use the biggest gun you are comfortable with. If you're only comfortable with a 9mm, then that's what you should use. You could own a S&W .500, but if you can't whip it out and fire two shots accurately in a fraction of a second - and probably in the dark - then it's not a good gun to use for protection. Sure, the .500's fun to shoot (if you can afford the ammo) - you can fire 10 or 20 rounds and literally cut down a small tree with it - it's quite the adrenalin rush. But everyone has their own limitations, whether it's their own size and strength, or some other reason. I personally am no longer comfortable shooting anything bigger than a .45, because both of my elbows have been permanently broken. I love the .500, but I'm not confident I can still safely shoot it, so I don't.

If you're being attacked in your home, and you pull your gun on your attacker, you will usually have no more than a second or two to act. You're not trying to simply stop your attacker or knock them down, you're trying to kill them. That has to be your mind-set. If you are not prepared to kill them, then sell your guns, and take your chances. Because if you pull a gun and you're not prepared to use it, your attacker will take it from you, and they will use it.

negolien
12-18-2010, 4:43 AM
Stuff like that's a bit retarded really. They are reliable and come from a good company so I don't understand the problem? I personally only own Glock and Kimber handguns atm but no reason I wouldn't buy an M&P if the opportunity presented itself. to be honest I was looking at one in .45 when I got my kimber but I couldn't pass on a 649 custom II lol.

MarioS
12-20-2010, 4:55 PM
You obviously mis-heard the sales people. They were likely trying to say 9mm was for chicks.:hide:

:rofl2:

Yeah, M&P's being for girls? I've never heard that. They are great guns that will take care of business.

doubledgarage
12-20-2010, 7:20 PM
I drive a chick's car: Acura RSX Type-S (well, mine is setup for track and show). I met a ton of girls with the RSX. Next car will definitely be a car that girls dig too! :D

(I'm sure the same goes for guns.)

corporalbrig
12-24-2010, 1:14 PM
Go with what works for you. Not heresay. M&P's have great ergonomics and are accurate!

kdawg
12-24-2010, 9:47 PM
California Department of Parks and Recreation has gone from SW4006 to M&P40's just in the last month. They are waiting for the order. Monies have been approved and allocated.