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View Full Version : GLOCK vs XD


rrr70
10-11-2010, 9:59 AM
GBdYBc0BLgQ

It's a serious business :p

VTRweasel
10-11-2010, 10:08 AM
Really? Again? :confused:

evidens83
10-11-2010, 10:09 AM
Really... :beatdeadhorse5:

rrr70
10-11-2010, 10:10 AM
Really? Again? :confused:

:p :twofinger

socal-shooter
10-11-2010, 10:24 AM
i rather enjoyed that actually

SPR18
10-11-2010, 10:30 AM
GBdYBc0BLgQ

It's a serious business :p

:rofl2::rofl:

Group 4
10-11-2010, 11:01 AM
So the Glock is better, right?

Uriah02
10-11-2010, 11:03 AM
This is one of the reasons why I think these forums need "sticky" threads.

VictorFranko
10-11-2010, 11:04 AM
Glock vs XD http://www.sincitywickedfjs.com/forum/images/smilies/fighting61.gif

Old4eyes
10-11-2010, 11:06 AM
As I see it, we have two options in the Glock vs XD debate.

1. We call up animal control for removal of a dead horse.
or
2. We fire up the barbeque and have horse burger.

mif_slim
10-11-2010, 11:07 AM
Really... :beatdeadhorse5:

x100000000000000000000000000000000000 not +!

BamBam-31
10-11-2010, 11:09 AM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

txeGZoBW7vY

Colt-45
10-11-2010, 11:40 AM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

I gotta admit the gun flipping at 1:17 was bad *** :D

gorenut
10-11-2010, 11:41 AM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

txeGZoBW7vY

Clearly this is the debate winner. Until I see a double XD. Glock wins.

247Nino
10-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Double Glock ~!

Old4eyes
10-11-2010, 1:10 PM
I'm sure the face of the fellow with the "double glock" is not shown to keep his anonymity intact since he doesn't want people to recognize him on the street and point and laugh.

Idiots like this give ammunition to those that want gun control.

DaveFJ80
10-11-2010, 1:20 PM
so I should get a 1911, right?


wait... wut?

Bill Carson
10-11-2010, 2:13 PM
GBdYBc0BLgQ

It's a serious business :p

freakin hysterical

mif_slim
10-11-2010, 3:03 PM
I like xd more because it fits my hand better then a glock, but because of the double glock vdo, my mind has totally changed! Mind blowing!! Imma get 2 flocks now so I can demonstrate my double glock!

tacticalcity
10-11-2010, 3:14 PM
Frankly, the video is complete BS. There are functional and mechnical differences between the firearms that affect your learning curve, effectiveness and tactics.

The XD has a much longer trigger reset, almost twice as long as on a Glock, which means the trigger is considerably harder to master. It can be mastered, but that is not "equal", that is a major draw back.

The XD sights are high-up on the slide, resulting in height over bore issues. Something usually associated with long rifles. Your point of aim point of impact noticably changes within CQB distances. Where your point of aim point of impact is, changes radically as you get closer, more so than you would expect. If the sights were lower, and closer to the bore like on the Glock this would be a non-issue. Again, you can train through this problem. However, almost no shooters do. They just rely on plinking at a bench rest only range. Which means they have no idea the problem even exists, or how to compensate for it.

There is a lot more to firearms than how they feel in your hand, how they look in a photograph, or how they perform during bench rest plinking. Those who say the Glock and XD are equal, is not taking the entire picture into account. Odds are they simply lack the necessary handgun training to know better. The XD is far from a Glock killer, and far from being Glock's equal. Yes it is very comfortable in the hand, and looks a little cooler in pictures, but that is where the XD's superiority ends.

If all you are going to do with it is dust it off, and go plinking then the video is right...either will do. If there is the slightest possibility you are going to have to defend your life with it, then the XD is going to have some additional issues you are going to have to train through that you would not have to worry about with the Glock.

RollingCode3
10-11-2010, 3:19 PM
Frankly, the video is complete BS. There are functional and mechnical differences between the firearms that affect your learning curve, effectiveness and tactics.

The XD has a much longer trigger reset, almost twice as long as on a Glock, which means the trigger is considerably harder to master.

The XD sights are high-up on the slide, resulting in height over bore issues. Something usually associated with long rifles. Your point of aim point of impact noticably changes with distance. You cannot simply rely on your sights. At certain distances you have to make manual adjustments. It could mean the difference between shooting a hostage or shooting the bad guy.

Again, you can train through this...but maybe 1% of all XD owners actually will spend the time and effort to learn their holes at various distances and train realistically. Most will rely on bench rest practice at fixed distances and assume their sights are are good to go for all CQB distances. If the sights were lower, and closer to the bore like on the Glock this would be a non-issue.

There is a lot more to firearms than how they feel in your hand, how they look in a photograph, or how they perform during bench rest plinking. Those who say there is very little difference between the Glock and XD, is not taking the entire picture into account. The XD is far from a Glock killer, and far from being Glock's equal. Yes it is very comfortable in the hand, but that is where the XD's superiority ends.

+1.... waiting for the XD fanboy to jump in. :p

tacticalcity
10-11-2010, 3:29 PM
I cleaned my post up a bit, to get my point across more clearly, but I appreciate someone sharing this point of view.

There are specific things about the Glock professionals like, that the "Glock Killers" have all failed to accomplish. They focused on the end users main complaints, that the Glock is too boxy looking and not very comfortable to hold. Both valid complaints. However, they did not match the Glock's performance because they overlooked the very things that make the Glock the first choice for so many professionals who actually have a choice.

1) Short trigger reset allows for fast and accurate follow up shots with very little jerking. Almost every Glock clone has a much longer reset. The original S&W Sigmas were an exception, however they changed their triggers to have a freakishly long reset (probably as the result of a law suit). The shorter the rest the better. You can train through a long trigger reset, but you will never be as fast or as accurate as you could have been with a shorter one.

2) Trigger safety instead of a thumb safety. This speeds everything up. Again, you can train through having a thumb safety, but you would be faster without one.

3) Consistent trigger pull requiring the same amount of pressure for each trigger pull. Keeping things consistent speeds up the training process so you can master your trigger faster, and become a more accurate and consistent shooter faster. SOA triggers accomplish this as well, but they require a thumb safety. So it becomes a combination thing.

4) Manageable trigger pull weight. The Glock has a 5.5lbs trigger pull. Not so light you'll have an ND if a stiff wind blows, not so stiff you'll need a water break in the middle of every trigger pull. Women, teenagers, and grown men can handle it no problem without shaking and jerking all over the place.

Some of the so called "Glock killers" get 2 or even three of the above right. None of them get them all. Believe me I wish the did. I absolutely hate the Glock's finger grooves in the compact and baby size frames and would love an alternative. But my dislike of those grooves is outweighed by the Glock's more important feature, it's functionality.

If my big fat fingers are the only thing that are uncomfortable during and after a firefight...that is one hell of a good day!

ricksOe
10-11-2010, 3:41 PM
I'd still buy an XD over a glock any day.

tacticalcity
10-11-2010, 3:48 PM
Without an explination as to why we're left to assume the worst about your reasoning. Educate us. Spell out what about it you like so much that outweighs complaints about a long trigger rest that results in jerky follow-up shots and sights that are too high on the slide and cause point of aim point of impact issues at various distances within 25 yards? What about it makes it worth putting up with those draw backs vs a firearm that does not have them? Explain it to us? We want to understand.

Is it just how you are using it? Do only need to shoot at fixed distances, and with lots of time between shots so those issues do not affect your shooting? If so I can understand that. If you are going to bench rest shooting, which can be a long drawn out process in which the firearm in your hand the entire time and not coming in and out of a holster, than I can understand how a comfortable grip (for example) might actually be worth the emphasis most shooters put on it. However, if you are running and gunning, working from holster, and trainin/working in a dymanic shooting enviorment I would like to know what about the XD makes it a better choice for you?

I'm all for the right tool for the right job. I'm just curious about what role the XD is filling for you that makes it a superior choice?

hefedehefe
10-11-2010, 3:50 PM
XD all the way. I shoot glocks too. I've seen people shoot glocks before and have seen them fire of more than 1 round unintentionally. As for the sights, well I have no problem with those. I would take either over a 1911 though

tacticalcity
10-11-2010, 3:57 PM
Again, I have to ask why? Give me some specific examples of what makes it a better choice for you? You always see lots of people say they like something over a Glock, but cannot spell out what exactly makes it a better choice for them...or at least do not have an answer to my questions about trigger rest or other issues known to be associated with their firearm of choice. They like it because it is the one they like. They don't give more information that.

My first thought would be to ask whether or not you are training realistically or bench rest shooting? The benefits I am citing above only become noticable when you move from bench rest shooting to training in a more dynamic/realistic manner. If you're stuck behind the bench you'll never notice the difference. Not unless the target distance is adjustable and somebody walks you through the trigger rest drills on both firearms side by side so you can experience the drastic difference for yourself.

Hey, if bench rest shooting makes you happy...then that is a good thing. I am not criticising you. However, if a gunfight should ever find you...things work a lot differently and those differences will be an issue (unless you invested considerable time overcoming them in combat training). Bench rest shooting is NOT proper training for self defense. It is only the very first step in a very long training process. As you advance to the next step, some features of your firearm will aid in your progress, and some will hurt. The XD has two features that a lot of professionals are discovering actually hurt. Two features the Glock does not share with XD. Both Glocks and 1911s have the most amount things that aid in training, and least amount of things that hurt. That is why professionals love them so much. You can train through the flaws of other firearms, I just don't understand why you would want to when you do not have to. Plus, those flaws are indeed flaws...making the firearm less than equal.

jptopz
10-11-2010, 4:04 PM
I'm sure the face of the fellow with the "double glock" is not shown to keep his anonymity intact since he doesn't want people to recognize him on the street and point and laugh.

Idiots like this give ammunition to those that want gun control.

I could not agree more! Unbelievable!

As far as the Glock vs XD who cares! Some like Fords Chevys, or Dodges. That is the wonderful thing about verity we all can have what we want. They are both great guns.:rolleyes:

VTRweasel
10-11-2010, 4:16 PM
:p :twofinger

Your just saying that cuz I posted the same vid on barf before this thread :p

so I should get a 1911, right?


wait... wut?

:rofl2:

kel-tec-innovations
10-11-2010, 4:19 PM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

txeGZoBW7vY

AHHH airsoft >.<

BamBam-31
10-11-2010, 5:15 PM
AHHH airsoft >.<

I sure hope so, or else he's got a living room and kitchen riddled with bullet holes! :p

rrr70
10-11-2010, 5:18 PM
That video was a joke. jeez.:rolleyes:

Breadfan
10-11-2010, 5:20 PM
NO the XD is better:D:D


[QUOTE=Group 4;5106361]So the Glock is better, right?[/QUOT

Colt-45
10-11-2010, 5:23 PM
NO the XD is better:D


How so:D?

themailman
10-11-2010, 5:30 PM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

txeGZoBW7vY

My dahbbel Glahck. I ahways carry it wif me so no one can get meh.

Ultimate
10-11-2010, 6:58 PM
There are specific things about the Glock professionals like, that the "Glock Killers" have all failed to accomplish. They focused on the end users main complaints, that the Glock is too boxy looking and not very comfortable to hold. Both valid complaints. However, they did not match the Glock's performance because they overlooked the very things that make the Glock the first choice for so many professionals who actually have a choice.

!

Sorry dude, but even a huge glock fan such as yourself have to admit ergonomics are a huge attribute to performance. Therefore, manufacturers that cater to that particular MAJOR complaint about the glock are in effect providing certain users with better performance.

Sure you can train yourself to be proficient with a gun that feels wrong but that also contradicts your statement about how the glock makes it easier to train with. If the ergonomics are right for the shooter, the training will be much lighter and better focused and in a stressful situation you are more likely to be effective.

I don't bench shoot. I don't compete.

But your whole if-you-bench-rest-shoot-then-you-can-have-an-inferior-gun-instead-of-the-glock simply does not hold water, for if the ergonomics are totally wrong you are more likely to bench shoot the pistol adequately and be blind to its deficiencies.

While if the pistol has perfect user ergonomics then you are more likely to be accurate in a standing natural position. That is one of the reasons you get a lot of people who praise the 1911 accuracy and only a few who totally can't get with it.

Also on another note because a lot of people like to throw LEO adoption as a bible or a reason for a gun's merits and that is simply not the case. LE agencies are run like corporations and whoever makes the best business case wins.

The front wheel drive impala was adopted in LE agencies accross the nation despite its deficiencies as an effective chase vehicle compared to the crown vic. And before that LE agencies adopted the crown vic despite the Chevy caprice's superiority for police duty. Business cases, nothing else.

elSquid
10-11-2010, 8:07 PM
The XD sights are high-up on the slide, resulting in height over bore issues. Something usually associated with long rifles. Your point of aim point of impact noticably changes within CQB distances. Where your point of aim point of impact is, changes radically as you get closer, more so than you would expect. If the sights were lower, and closer to the bore like on the Glock this would be a non-issue. Again, you can train through this problem. However, almost no shooters do. They just rely on plinking at a bench rest only range. Which means they have no idea the problem even exists, or how to compensate for it.

So I'm sitting here with a stock XD9 Tactical and a stock G34. I pulled the slides and have set them upside down on the table, side by side. Looking from the muzzle end, it appears that there isn't that much difference between the two. If anything, the G34s bore is a half an mm lower ( "worse" ) than the XD. Now the XDs slide is slightly taller than the Glocks, but that apparently has no effect on the bore/top of the slide/sight distance.

What guns did you compare, and what was the difference?

-- Michael

tbhracing
10-11-2010, 8:13 PM
Can I re-post the infamous "Double Glock?" :D

txeGZoBW7vY

The Double Glock video will always rule!

Regulus
10-11-2010, 8:40 PM
Again, I have to ask why? Give me some specific examples of what makes it a better choice for you? You always see lots of people say they like something over a Glock, but cannot spell out what exactly makes it a better choice for them...

Since the video mentions the similarities between the Glock and P7 grip angle, and they are both striker fire handguns, here is why a P7 is a better choice for me:

Safer to handle, ensures a deliberate and concious decision to fire, faster to reload/fire, fixed barrel, lowest bore axis, can eject spent casings without an extractor, no racking to re-cock in case of a light strike, can be disabled by removing the firing pin in less than 2 seconds, it's not fugly, mentally inferior people do not make double P7 video's and post them on the internet.

morfeeis
10-11-2010, 8:45 PM
GBdYBc0BLgQ

It's a serious business :p
First time i've seen that, that was great.
"i hope you die in a fire" priceless........

BOFH
10-11-2010, 8:47 PM
I don't care which one is "better" but I do have a XD with about 10K rounds through it that I can shoot very well. I am very comfortable with it and would not hesitate to use it to defend my life. If you like something else...good for you ;)

Shenaniguns
10-11-2010, 8:49 PM
Since the video mentions the similarities between the Glock and P7 grip angle, and they are both striker fire handguns, here is why a P7 is a better choice for me:

Safer to handle, ensures a deliberate and concious decision to fire, faster to reload/fire, fixed barrel, lowest bore axis, can eject spent casings without an extractor, no racking to re-cock in case of a light strike, can be disabled by removing the firing pin in less than 2 seconds, it's not fugly, mentally inferior people to not make double P7 video's and post them on the internet.



And heats up to the point you'll get burned in less than 50 rounds rapid fire. Try using that for a 600 round a day class lol

fullrearview
10-11-2010, 8:52 PM
My 1st preference of any pistol is a P226....Im not an expert on firearms by any means, but feel is everything to me. Im a point shooter. I used my sights when I have time, but being an LEO, when do we ever have the upperhand? Only in tactical operations, and then, guess what???? I have a long gun!

I just bought my xdm 3.8 and it feels right in my hands. I only shot 50 rounds from it and it was at about 70 yards up hill at steel. Right away I was shooting it better than my duty usp40. The usp does not feel right. I have yet to shoot a gun better than a p226, but thats me, which brings me to my next point.....

WE ARE ALL MADE DIFFERENT!!!!

What works for Tactical city, doesnt work for me. With my shooting style (VERY dynamic), I do not shoot the glock well. Its the grip angle, primarly. I have shot a xd40 service before, and did really well with it. Almost as well as the p226. The glock, almost all of my shots were low.

If you shoot better with the glock, buy. If you shoot better with other weapons, buy that one.

Regulus
10-11-2010, 8:55 PM
And heats up to the point you'll get burned in less than 50 rounds rapid fire. Try using that for a 600 round a day class lol

Right... That's why I have more than 1 P7 for training! :D

While an LEO, I never carried more than 2 spare magazines (on duty or off).
Seriously, who carries 600 rounds with them for self-defense?

Shenaniguns
10-11-2010, 9:06 PM
Right... That's why I have more than 1 P7 for training! :D

While an LEO, I never carried more than 2 spare magazines (on duty or off).
Seriously, who carries 600 rounds with them for self-defense?


Where did I say one would carry that much? IMO you should train with what you carry and the last class I took was around 1200 rounds for 2days. Besides I get slide bite with the P7.

Gryff
10-11-2010, 9:14 PM
http://www.textually.org/textually/archives/images/set3/spy-vs-spy.jpg

Noah3683
10-11-2010, 9:48 PM
Got an XD9, and XD45... had a Glock 23. The glock took longer to get used to due to the difference in comfort and trigger. Have a M&P40, and just added a SW990L and I gotta say both my S&W's can make the XD and Glock go pound sand. They are both more comfortable, and more accurate for me. Now that its broken in, the 990L absolutely smokes all of them for the trigger feel and overall comfort. Even at the heavy pull weight it is extremely smooth and crisp. It was also $125 cheaper than it's closest price competitor in the xd9. Everyone's mileage will vary, but Glock is certainly not the end all be all at least for me. To further drive the point home, the SW99/P99 have an even better trigger yet.

Warhawk014
10-11-2010, 9:54 PM
omg wtf bbq.

ok but seriously, is preference no longer a valid reason to chosing one over the other. i mean if a guy likes the xd and shoots well with it, thats all that matters. if you like glocks and can shoot well with it then thats all there is to it. why should it matter to you what anyone else buys. it not your gun its theirs, they bought it with their money not yours for them not you. so who cares. really.

sker13
10-11-2010, 10:08 PM
omg wtf bbq.

ok but seriously, is preference no longer a valid reason to chosing one over the other. i mean if a guy likes the xd and shoots well with it, thats all that matters. if you like glocks and can shoot well with it then thats all there is to it. why should it matter to you what anyone else buys. it not your gun its theirs, they bought it with their money not yours for them not you. so who cares. really.

+1 these threads go nowhere and you almost never see experts comment....I am willing to bet few here have 5k training rounds through both.

Gryff
10-11-2010, 10:20 PM
+1 these threads go nowhere and you almost never see experts comment....I am willing to bet few here have 5k training rounds through both.

I have 20,000+ rounds through the XD platform (competition shooter), and about 2500-3000 through Glocks of various flavors.

PyroFox79
10-11-2010, 10:22 PM
The video was funny

SPR18
10-11-2010, 10:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVprHSjspsA
:D

Shenaniguns
10-12-2010, 6:38 AM
+1 these threads go nowhere and you almost never see experts comment....I am willing to bet few here have 5k training rounds through both.



I have 30k+ thru my Glocks, 2k Sig P226r,2k USP .40, 6k+ Les Baer and my M&P is at about 2k right now.

Greg-Dawg
10-12-2010, 9:48 AM
Yay! I get to post this again!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/G17Gen43006.jpg

rrr70
10-12-2010, 9:52 AM
+1 these threads go nowhere and you almost never see experts comment....I am willing to bet few here have 5k training rounds through both.

IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

fullrearview
10-12-2010, 10:29 AM
IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

No....Its PERSONAL!:chris::p

Gryff
10-12-2010, 10:50 AM
IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

No, it was Freudian. And by giving primacy to Glock in the post title reflects your bias.

Your name, address, and social security number have already been posted at XDTalk.com. The Croatian Mafia will be visiting you shortly.

:D

mif_slim
10-12-2010, 11:03 AM
I went to shoot IPSC on open class with my xd40 service. Shot against 10,000-15,000 dollar tricked out 1 lbs trigger pull, RDS and compensators from another world. 24 shooters and I was the only one with stock class... I came in 6 place. I'm not bragging... I'm just saying that it depends on the shooter, gear comes second.

xtalpimp
10-12-2010, 5:01 PM
I don't care what anyone says double glock wins! C'mon modularity so one weapons platform can serve multiple roles! Just like ACRs n SCARs n the Colt cm901s, except that modular goodness is already here now in the pistol platform of the Double Glock!:D

Gryff
10-12-2010, 5:13 PM
What's modular about a Glock 17?

OmutaX
10-12-2010, 6:03 PM
The Double Glock youtube video almost me shard in my pants. That just became an instant classic for me.

Shenaniguns
10-12-2010, 8:29 PM
I went to shoot IPSC on open class with my xd40 service. Shot against 10,000-15,000 dollar tricked out 1 lbs trigger pull, RDS and compensators from another world. 24 shooters and I was the only one with stock class... I came in 6 place. I'm not bragging... I'm just saying that it depends on the shooter, gear comes second.

Where was this at? I want to see these $15,000 handguns and your 90,000 round XD.

mif_slim
10-12-2010, 9:53 PM
Sorry about the price range extreme. Lol.

But I do have 90k+ rounds so please don't hate, my point is that it doesn't matter about the gun, it's the person behind it. You can't drive a sports car 6sp, heck a economy 5sp if you don't know how to dirge a 5sp.

mif_slim
10-12-2010, 9:54 PM
Ops, sorry to have compared a gun made by mortals to the glock which is given by the gods. ;)

Dragon
10-12-2010, 11:02 PM
Ops, sorry to have compared a gun made by mortals to the glock which is given by the gods. ;)

Good one!!

Shenaniguns
10-13-2010, 3:15 AM
Sorry about the price range extreme. Lol.

But I do have 90k+ rounds so please don't hate, my point is that it doesn't matter about the gun, it's the person behind it. You can't drive a sports car 6sp, heck a economy 5sp if you don't know how to dirge a 5sp.


And I still do not believe you ;)

Where was that match again?

mif_slim
10-13-2010, 6:42 AM
Sorry that the world doesn't revolve around you. Too bad you'll never get that either. ;)

Shenaniguns
10-13-2010, 8:09 AM
Sorry that the world doesn't revolve around you. Too bad you'll never get that either. ;)


Hey at least I'm actually being honest :D

jkl33
10-13-2010, 9:02 AM
had the glock 35 it was a nice gun to shoot but just didnt fit right in the hands XD was a better fit and i just switched over. so whichever one fits better in the hands and shoots better for you go with that one cause in the end youll end up selling your gun that doesnt fit right in the hands and get something else like me :D

rrr70
10-13-2010, 9:11 AM
Your name, address, and social security number have already been posted at XDTalk.com. The Croatian Mafia will be visiting you shortly.

:D

Glocktalk.com has my back. :X


:p

ap3572001
10-13-2010, 9:17 AM
Glock VS XD is an old subject, but it can be fun sometimes :)

Anyway. XD is NOT a Glock.

If I wanted a std duty size .40 for example , I would just get the Glock .
On the other hand, If I LIKED XD so much better, I would get an XD.

From working at the police range for years, and working on many guns, I can say that I will take the Glock over the XD.

But that does not mean XD is a bad gun. Not at all.

Phillips
10-13-2010, 6:57 PM
Buy them both. WTF they are just cheap plastic.

inbox485
10-13-2010, 8:49 PM
i rather enjoyed that actually

So did I...

Years ago when it was first posted...

Napalm Bulldog
10-14-2010, 1:39 AM
I switched from Xd's to all Glocks. I had my reasons felt that the recoil was a little bit lighter in the Glocks. Also no matter what caliber my Glock is my wife can rack the slide on it if she needs to defend herself. The Xd she could not. I use to hate Glocks but gen 3 I like a lot. I own 5 Glocks from 10mm to .357 sig. They have never dissapointed me. Only draw back to owning either it there is no hammer or real DAO! So if you have a fail to fire you can not pull the trigger again to see if it goes off. You have to eject the round. JMO but I still like my Glocks.

Maybe if I hear anything good about HK or Sigs customer service I might intertain buying one. Until then Glocks customer service and quality has kept me a very happy shooter.

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 6:10 AM
I switched from Xd's to all Glocks. I had my reasons felt that the recoil was a little bit lighter in the Glocks. Also no matter what caliber my Glock is my wife can rack the slide on it if she needs to defend herself. The Xd she could not. I use to hate Glocks but gen 3 I like a lot. I own 5 Glocks from 10mm to .357 sig. They have never dissapointed me. Only draw back to owning either it there is no hammer or real DAO! So if you have a fail to fire you can not pull the trigger again to see if it goes off. You have to eject the round. JMO but I still like my Glocks.

Maybe if I hear anything good about HK or Sigs customer service I might intertain buying one. Until then Glocks customer service and quality has kept me a very happy shooter.



That's what tap rack bang is for since a fail to fire is probably going to be ammo related on a well functioning weapon.

ap3572001
10-15-2010, 8:38 AM
It is an old topic.
To put it in a different way, from what I know, XD's are GOOD guns.
Great guns.....But FOR SURE not better than any Glock.

Glock 22 with NIght Sights and 3 magazines packed with JHP's is what MOST officers have on their belt right now. And there is a good reason for it.

XD's can hold its own in the market. It is very popular . But it is NOT a Glock.....

zfields
10-15-2010, 9:36 AM
It is an old topic.
To put it in a different way, from what I know, XD's are GOOD guns.
Great guns.....But FOR SURE not better than any Glock.

Glock 22 with NIght Sights and 3 magazines packed with JHP's is what MOST officers have on their belt right now. And there is a good reason for it.

XD's can hold its own in the market. It is very popular . But it is NOT a Glock.....

You're right, its a glock with a better grip angle.

zfields
10-15-2010, 9:40 AM
Glocktalk.com has my back. :X


:p

Id take a few hundred people with there head screwed on straight over glocktalks mallninja army. Hell, combine them with ARF's "elite operators" and Id still feel pretty comfortable.

BamBam-31
10-15-2010, 12:32 PM
You're right, its a glock with a better grip angle.

Says you. ;)

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 1:28 PM
How exactly does a "better grip angle" benefit you more that a shorter trigger reset? Trigger reset drills are emphasized in the most basic handgun training classes. You see first hand how the length of the reset affects your accuracy. The more the trigger has to travel before it resets, means the longer pull you have before you can fire again. The longer that pull is, the more movement you will have pulling you off target. In order to compensate you have to slow down. No matter how fast you get while still maintaining accuracy, you would have been faster on a Glock with the same time and effort into your training. Not talking about just squeezing away with no regards to shot placement, I am talking about effective shots at speed.

I am not saying the XD has the worst trigger rest ever. That would be the S&W M&P, the Sig DAK models and of course revolvers. I am just saying the XD has twice as long as the reset as found on a Glock, and that is a major determining factor towards which one is a better from a practical perspective.

I fully admit the XD fits most peoples hands more comfortably, but comfort is pretty low on the list of factors that make a great defensive/combat handgun. It ranks just above looks, which I could pretty much careless about also. I want speed, accuracy, and dependability. The Glock wins out on all three. I'm not going to be walking around all day long holding my handgun in my hand. It does not need to massage my palm. It does however need to be as fast, accurate and dependable as it can be so the only flaws I have to worry about are in my technique, and not in the firearm's design.

Until somebody makes a really comfortable gun that can match Glocks functionality, I'm just going to have to live with those goofy finger grooves (the grip angle does not bug me but the grooves in the compact and baby models are too narrow for my fingers while the regular size frame fits me just fine).

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 1:55 PM
Sorry dude, but even a huge glock fan such as yourself have to admit ergonomics are a huge attribute to performance. Therefore, manufacturers that cater to that particular MAJOR complaint about the glock are in effect providing certain users with better performance.

Sure you can train yourself to be proficient with a gun that feels wrong but that also contradicts your statement about how the glock makes it easier to train with. If the ergonomics are right for the shooter, the training will be much lighter and better focused and in a stressful situation you are more likely to be effective.

I don't bench shoot. I don't compete.

But your whole if-you-bench-rest-shoot-then-you-can-have-an-inferior-gun-instead-of-the-glock simply does not hold water, for if the ergonomics are totally wrong you are more likely to bench shoot the pistol adequately and be blind to its deficiencies.

While if the pistol has perfect user ergonomics then you are more likely to be accurate in a standing natural position. That is one of the reasons you get a lot of people who praise the 1911 accuracy and only a few who totally can't get with it.

Also on another note because a lot of people like to throw LEO adoption as a bible or a reason for a gun's merits and that is simply not the case. LE agencies are run like corporations and whoever makes the best business case wins.

The front wheel drive impala was adopted in LE agencies accross the nation despite its deficiencies as an effective chase vehicle compared to the crown vic. And before that LE agencies adopted the crown vic despite the Chevy caprice's superiority for police duty. Business cases, nothing else.

Well, you could not have missed every single one of my points or taken them more out of context if you tried. You are reading what you want into them, rather than getting my point. I am not trying to make this personal, as I have nothing against you. I just reel I should clarify what I meant since you missed what I was trying to say.

1) Ergonomics: My point was not that egronomics or hand fit do not matter. My point was that it is only one small part in a much bigger picture, and that very few people have enough experience or training in defensive handgun shooting to know how to evaluate the entire big picture. While there are more comfortable firearms out there than the Glock, there are some other more important factors to consider. The Beretta 92 is for example a thousand times more comfortable than the Glock, as is the Walther P99, and the list goes on. None of them is a superior firearm because their functionality is not as well designed. The most common recommendation you hear to new gun owners is "buy what fits your hand best" and I take issue with that. There are lot of really horrible handguns out there that will fit your hand so well they are practically orgasimic. That does not make them a smart choice. There is so much more to a firearm and how it performs than JUST ergonomics. That is not to say they are 100% irrelevant, just that they are not the end all be all way to define which is a better firearm. There are other things to consider. In my and many professionals opion, some of those other things are more important.

2) Bench Rest Shooters: You took this one for spin all the way around my point and came up with an entirely different meaning to it. My point was that somebody who only bench rest shoots with their buddies, and has no formal training, most likely has never heard of trigger rest or how if affects your marksmanship. This is not their fault. It is the way range rules work here in California because they are worried about getting sued. Therefore I was urging them to get professional training where running and gunning is emphasised and trigger reset drills are stressed. That way they would some hands on practical experience with how trigger reset affects their speed and accuracy in real life scenerios. Now, I have no idea why as a competition shooter you place a lower value on a short trigger rest than ergonomics. You definately have the kind of training I am talking about so I would assume you understand how trigger reset effects your accuracy/speed. For reasons I do not understand, you placed a higher degree of importance on comfort. Maybe there is something radically different about our hands. Who knows?

3) Law Enforcement Use: Again, you steered this one all the way around my point. I specifically said, when the trained professional has the option to choose his own gun and the bean counters and lawyers are not making the decision for them they almost always choose the Glock or 1911. You took my comments to mean the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. You chose to right it off as bean counters and lawyers forcing Glocks on them. The exact opposite is true. Bean counters and lawyers much prefer DA/SA handguns, because the first DA trigger pull is so slow that it gives the officers time to change their minds. In their opinion, it goes a long way towards ensuring any shot is a deliberate shot. I am not saying I agree with that perspective, but it is a commonly heald belief amongst law enforcement agencies. I personally believe it means they place a lower value on their officers lives than the general public. They are affraid of getting sued much more than they are of burrying an officer. The DA trigger pull is a major handicap against a gun like a Glock, XD, 1911 and on and on. However, it adds a layer of safety (combined with a thumb safety) that allows for less training to be reasonable safe. The officer or soldier may not be able hit anything, but at least a drastically long trigger pull and thumb safety are there to counter their lack of training. On the flip side, the reason most SWAT departments opt for the 1911 and/or Glock and that Delta Operators almost always opt for the 1911 and/or Glock is functionality and performance...pure and simple. It is NOT a politcal/business/cost saving decision like those made for their branch of service or department as a whole. If it were they would carrying Berettas or Sigs. When they have a choice of their own, and the experience and training to know better, they choose wisely and based on facts rather perception. They choose a 1911 or a Glock. Not every single time, but enough that it becomes the rule of thumb.

Gryff
10-15-2010, 1:58 PM
How exactly does a "better grip angle" benefit you more that a shorter trigger reset?

If the gun fits your hand like crap, the best trigger reset in the world won't make it a good shooter for you. The difference between the Glock reset and the XD reset is definitely a negligible issue if you find the XD's ergonomics superior to the Glocks.

The XD also has a higher bore of axis than the Glock, which means that the rotational impulse during recoil is greater. Yet the ergos of the XD allow me to be faster and more accurate than I am with the Glock.

I want speed, accuracy, and dependability. The Glock wins out on all three.

Sorry, but you can't show me where the Glock platform is more accurate than the XD. Dependability? Possible. The Glock is the gold standard of dependability, but the XD does not have a reputation towards failure. Speed? As mentioned above, it depends on the shooter. In theory and with the human factor removed, the Glock wins. Yet I and others shoot the XD faster because it fits our hands better and comes on to target more naturally.

Glocks are a freakin' great gun. But their attributes don't so dwarf the other quality platforms like the XD or M&P. About the only area where the Glock wins hands down is the do-it-yourself capabilities of the gun. It's disgustingly easy to repair or customize a Glock yourself. It's amazing and the gun deserves all the praise it gets in that category.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 2:05 PM
How exactly does a "better grip angle" benefit you more that a shorter trigger reset? Trigger reset drills are emphasized in the most basic handgun training classes. You see first hand how the length of the reset affects your accuracy. The more the trigger has to travel before it resets, means the longer pull you have before you can fire again. The longer that pull is, the more movement you will have pulling you off target. In order to compensate you have to slow down. No matter how fast you get while still maintaining accuracy, you would have been faster on a Glock with the same time and effort into your training. Not talking about just squeezing away with no regards to shot placement, I am talking about effective shots at speed.

I am not saying the XD has the worst trigger rest ever. That would be the S&W M&P, the Sig DAK models and of course revolvers. I am just saying the XD has twice as long as the reset as found on a Glock, and that is a major determining factor towards which one is a better from a practical perspective.

I fully admit the XD fits most peoples hands more comfortably, but comfort is pretty low on the list of factors that make a great defensive/combat handgun. It ranks just above looks, which I could pretty much careless about also. I want speed, accuracy, and dependability. The Glock wins out on all three. I'm not going to be walking around all day long holding my handgun in my hand. It does not need to massage my palm. It does however need to be as fast, accurate and dependable as it can be so the only flaws I have to worry about are in my technique, and not in the firearm's design.

Until somebody makes a really comfortable gun that can match Glocks functionality, I'm just going to have to live with those goofy finger grooves (the grip angle does not bug me but the grooves in the compact and baby models are too narrow for my fingers while the regular size frame fits me just fine).

I'm with you on the "grip angle" part(every time I hear the grip angle complaint I think of that one guy on Top Shot repeatedly choke on handgun and blame it on grip angle), but being able to reach the trigger on a 45 was the tipping point for me to rule out Glocks. If I was looking for a 9mm, they would definitely be back on the table. I'm thinking about getting a trigger kit for reducing reset and over travel distances on the XD, but I'm actually considering switching to M&P (despite my general ill will towards S&W) and getting the kit for it instead. That way I could have the best of both worlds.

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 2:31 PM
If the gun fits your hand like crap, the best trigger reset in the world won't make it a good shooter for you. The difference between the Glock reset and the XD reset is definitely a negligible issue if you find the XD's ergonomics superior to the Glocks.

The XD also has a higher bore of axis than the Glock, which means that the rotational impulse during recoil is greater. Yet the ergos of the XD allow me to be faster and more accurate than I am with the Glock.



Sorry, but you can't show me where the Glock platform is more accurate than the XD. Dependability? Possible. The Glock is the gold standard of dependability, but the XD does not have a reputation towards failure. Speed? As mentioned above, it depends on the shooter. In theory and with the human factor removed, the Glock wins. Yet I and others shoot the XD faster because it fits our hands better and comes on to target more naturally.

Glocks are a freakin' great gun. But their attributes don't so dwarf the other quality platforms like the XD or M&P. About the only area where the Glock wins hands down is the do-it-yourself capabilities of the gun. It's disgustingly easy to repair or customize a Glock yourself. It's amazing and the gun deserves all the praise it gets in that category.

By my definition, and where we clearly disogree is that the shorter the rest the more accurate the firearm will be (save things like a significantly longer barrel). I do not thing of accuracy in terms of bench rest shooting. I think in terms of how quickly and accurately can you get either a controlled pair or non-standard response into a hostile target from a holster and from concealment. A lot of guys think of it from strictly a target shooting perspective. I think of it in terms of self-defense, high pressure enviorment. So perhaps I should have clairified that more.

From my perspective you are making a mountain out of mole hill with regards to the ergonomics of the Glock. I don't think they are bad at all on the Glock 17/22 frame. In some ways the egronomics are better. In that the sights are lower on and where you hold it in relationship to your shoulder poisition are better (I find myself lowering my arm a hair on the XD which is not the best shooting platform but I will admit new shooters probably would not do this and would instead not bend their neck as much as I do). A lot of people complain about the position of the Glocks magazine release and claim it is not ergonomic enough, but I have seen countless accidental magazine drops on guns with a more "ergonomic" placement of the magazine release because they keep bumping into it. These were well trained guys doing this. Not noobs. So this is all a matter of perspective and is very subjective. What feels more ergonomically correct to you may not to me. I admit the Glock could be more comfortable, especially the smaller framed versions. But I do not agree that on the frame I prefer it negatively impacts my accuracy one little bit.

Trigger reset is much more measureable than ergonmics. It is not as subjective. It is a certain distance for everyone. It might vary just a hair from Glock to Glock, but only by a hair. The longer the reset the greater the odds you will pull yourself off target. Mastering trigger rest is basic part of handgun fundamentals. So there is no question it plays a role in your performance. That much has been proven time and time again. So comparing the egronomics ot the XD and Glock and the trigger control of both is a lot like comparing which color looks best on a car vs. which engine has the most horse power. One involves opinion and changes from person to person, and one is just fact.

I can tell you right now, I can diagnose somebody who is not using proper trigger rest just by looking at their target. Their groupings are all over the place. Once you get them trapping their trigger to the rear, releasing to the rest point and no further, and then pulling their follow up trigger shots those groups tighten up to hand size grouping, which is what you want...any tighter and they are not pushing themselves hard enough and need to speed up (unless we are talking about headshots or performing a specific drill). The shorter the gun's reset, the more effective controlling the reset will be.

That said, I fully admit the XD does not have the worst reset out there. But it is TWICE that of a Glock. That can't just be dismissed. It is a major factor. You are not going to convince me a slightly different grip angle and no finger grooves improve accuracy more than half as long of a trigger rest. It defies logic, doctrine, and every bit of training and personal experience that I have.

Short of doing say a 4 Day Handgun Course, repeating each drill once with the Glock and once with XD, and extending that class beyond the 4 Days if needed to do every drill you typically do at a course like that. Then doing the final scored exercise that evaluates your performance with each firearm...there is really to know which one truly suits your needs best. It is best guess, based on what our experience and training dictates. My training says trigger rest is critcal to mastering your firearm and getting best combination of speed vs. accuracy that you can.

Now, if they fixed that and fixed the height over bore issue on the sights...I would love the XD. But those two issues lead me to favor the Glock.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 2:36 PM
By my definition, and where we clearly disogree is that the shorter the rest the more accurate the firearm will be (save things like a significantly longer barrel).

From my perspective you are making a mountain out of mole hill with regards to the ergonomics of the Glock. I don't think they are bad at all on the Glock 17/22 frame. In some ways the egronomics are better. In that the sights are lower on and where you hold it in relationship to your shoulder poisition are better (I find myself lowering my arm a hair on the XD which is not the best posture but I will admit new shooters probably would not do this and would instead not bend their neck as much as I do). A lot of people complain about the position of the Glocks magazine release and claim it is not ergonomic enough, but I have seen countless accidental magazine drops on guns with a more "ergonomic" placement of the magazine release because they keep bumping into it. So this is all a matter of perspective and is very subjective. What feels more ergonomically correct to you may not to me.

Trigger reset is much more measureable than ergonmics. It is not as subjective. It is a certain distance for everyone. The longer the reset the greater the odds you will pull yourself off target. Mastering trigger rest is basic part of handgun fundamentals. It is like comparing which color looks best on a car, vs. which engine has the best horse power. One involves opinion and changes from person to person, and one is just fact.

I can tell you right now, I can diagnose somebody who is not using proper trigger rest just by looking at their target. Their groupings are all over the place. Once you get them trapping their trigger to the rear, releasing to the rest point and no further, and then pulling their follow up trigger shots those groups tighten right up. The shorter the gun's reset, the more effective that is.

That said, I fully admit the XD does not have the worst reset out there. But it is TWICE that of a Glock. That can't just be dismissed. It is a major factor. You are not going to convince me a slightly different grip angle and no finger grooves improve accuracy more than half as long of a trigger rest. It defies logic, doctrine, and every bit of training and personal experience that I have.

Now, if they fixed that and fixed the height over bore issue on the sights...I would love the XD. But those two issues lead me to favor the Glock.

You mentioned that the M&P had an even worse trigger than the XD. I didn't take measurements, but the M&P 45 I tried felt more natural than the XD. Do you have travel, reset, and over travel measurements handy?

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 3:02 PM
Trigger rest is not how the trigger feels. You can have a wonderfully smooth trigger pull with a nightmarishly long trigger reset.

Trigger reset is the distance you have to release the trigger after your last pull of the trigger before you can fire it again.

The Glock has a short reset. The XD has a reset that is twice as long.

The S&W M&P requires that you completely release the trigger before it rests. Now, for all I know there might be a few older M&Ps out there that have a short reset. I know there are some S&W Sigmas that do, my father owns one with the old trigger design. Glock sued S&W and made them change their trigger design (or so I am told). The S&W M&P and the S&W Sigma I tried and am basing my comments on were brand new as of two months ago, and had just be received in that gun store a few days earlier. So I think it is safe to assume that is the current design and any M&P you pick up new will have that design. I do not pretend to be the end all be all expert on S&W Semi-Autos. I can only tell you what I experienced with the few models I've tried.

The longer the reset, the more your finger has to travel/move during both the release and subsequent pull. During that time your sights are likely to wobble off target. As your trigger finger moves, your hand muscles move, moving your hand, moving your gun. The shorter the reset the easier it is to prevent that from happening, and thus you can be more accurate while firing faster. This is not opinion, this is one of those things that gets proven in every single Handgun I class with every shooter.

The prove it to you with the trigger control reset drill...

Step 1: Pull the trigger.
Step 2: Hold the trigger to the rear and pause.
Step 3: When dry firing, while still holding (a.k.a. trapping) the trigger to the rear, pull the slide back to trip the trigger mechanism, release the slide and regain the proper grip. When live firing, the firearm will do step 3 for you.
Step 4: Slowly release the trigger until you hear a click and feel it snap or jerk ever so slightly. This is the reset point. Stop releasing the trigger right there.
Step 5: Pull the trigger and fire your follow up shot.
Step 6: Repeat

You do it painfully slow at first, until it becomes second nature. If you see your accuracy slipping, you slow back down until you are back where you want to be for a little bit and then speed back up once you're back where you should be. Eventually you can do it so fast it seems like you are just squeezing away when in fact you are using perfect trigger control, trapping the trigger to rear and never releasing beyond the point where the trigger resets. It allows for optimum speed and accuracy, by limiting wasted movement of your finger. Movement that would otherwise transfer to movement of the firearm negatively impacting accuracy.

On the S&W M&P, when you speed things up you end up literally slapping the trigger and you get all kinds of excess movement causing the firearms aim to shift all over the place. You can eventually train yourself out it, just as you can with any firearm. My argument would be, why should you? Why not chose a firearm with a short reset that gives you greater speed and accuracy right from the start? If you put the same amount of time into mastering a Glock, as you would have to in order to stop slapping the trigger on an M&P, I'd be willing to bet you would be drastically faster without sacrificing accuracy. Shorter trigger reset makes it that much easier to master your trigger control.

For me trigger reset is a critical factor in choosing a firearm. The only thing I place a higher value on is making sure each trigger pull weight is exactly the same...and that is another argument waiting to happen all on its own...though a related one. Once you go there the Sig, Beretta and CZ fans all flip out on you.

Gryff
10-15-2010, 3:09 PM
Trigger rest is not how the trigger feels.

Trigger reset is the distance you have to release the trigger after your last pull of the trigger before you can fire it again.

The Glock has a short reset. The XD has a reset that is twice as long. The S&W M&P requires that you completely release the trigger.

The longer the reset, the more your finger has to travel/move during both the release and subsequent pull. During that time your sights are likely to wobble off target. As your trigger finger moves, your hand muscles move, moving your hand, moving your gun. The shorter the reset the easier it is to prevent that from happing, and thus you can be more accurate while firing faster. This is not opinion, this is one of those things that gets proven in every single Handgun I class with every shooter.

The prove it to you with the trigger control reset drill...

Step 1: Pull the trigger.
Step 2: Hold the trigger to the rear and pause.
Step 3: When dry firing, while still holding (a.k.a. trapping) the trigger to the rear, pull the slide back to trip the trigger mechanism, release the slide and regain the proper grip. When live firing, the firearm will do step 3 for you.
Step 4: Slowly release the trigger until you hear a click and feel it snap or jerk ever so slightly. This is the reset point. Stop releasing the trigger right there.
Step 5: Pull the trigger and fire your follow up shot.
Step 6: Repeat

You do it painfully slow at first, until it becomes second nature. If you see your accuracy slipping, you slow back down until you are back where you want to be for a little bit and then speed back up ance you're back where you should be. Eventually you can do it so fast it seems like you are just squeezing away when in fact you are using perfect trigger control, trapping the trigger to rear and never releasing beyond the point where the trigger resets. It allows for optimum speed and accuracy, by limiting wasted movement of your finger. Movement that would otherwise transfer to movement of the firearm negatively impacting accuracy.

Very critical for precision bullseye shooting.

For self-defense/practical pistol competition, not so much.

I think you are right in theory, but you're giving it too much importance. I think take-up, trigger creep and over-travel have more affect on practical accuracy than reset.

But I will acknowledge that the trigger reset distance is not a good feature on the XD. Although even the Glock's can benefit from improvement, it is better than the XD's. I just don't think that it is as big a deal as you make. I find trigger finger position, consistency of pull, and long spongy trigger feel affects accuracy far more.

mif_slim
10-15-2010, 3:17 PM
Again, it's "my opinion".

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 3:27 PM
The M&P's 'stock' reset is about as much as the XD's, but it is not needed to let the trigger all the way out like the P250. With Apex's DCAEK, the reset is surprisingly shorter than a Glocks.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 3:29 PM
Trigger rest is not how the trigger feels. You can have a wonderfully smooth trigger pull with a nightmarishly long trigger reset.

Trigger reset is the distance you have to release the trigger after your last pull of the trigger before you can fire it again.

The Glock has a short reset. The XD has a reset that is twice as long.

The S&W M&P requires that you completely release the trigger before it rests. Now, for all I know there might be a few older M&Ps out there that have a short reset. I know there are some S&W Sigmas that do, my father owns one with the old trigger design. Glock sued S&W and made them change their trigger design (or so I am told). The S&W M&P and the S&W Sigma I tried and am basing my comments on were brand new as of two months ago, and had just be received in that gun store a few days earlier. So I think it is safe to assume that is the current design and any M&P you pick up new will have that design. I do not pretend to be the end all be all expert on S&W Semi-Autos. I can only tell you what I experienced with the few models I've tried.

The longer the reset, the more your finger has to travel/move during both the release and subsequent pull. During that time your sights are likely to wobble off target. As your trigger finger moves, your hand muscles move, moving your hand, moving your gun. The shorter the reset the easier it is to prevent that from happening, and thus you can be more accurate while firing faster. This is not opinion, this is one of those things that gets proven in every single Handgun I class with every shooter.

The prove it to you with the trigger control reset drill...

Step 1: Pull the trigger.
Step 2: Hold the trigger to the rear and pause.
Step 3: When dry firing, while still holding (a.k.a. trapping) the trigger to the rear, pull the slide back to trip the trigger mechanism, release the slide and regain the proper grip. When live firing, the firearm will do step 3 for you.
Step 4: Slowly release the trigger until you hear a click and feel it snap or jerk ever so slightly. This is the reset point. Stop releasing the trigger right there.
Step 5: Pull the trigger and fire your follow up shot.
Step 6: Repeat

You do it painfully slow at first, until it becomes second nature. If you see your accuracy slipping, you slow back down until you are back where you want to be for a little bit and then speed back up once you're back where you should be. Eventually you can do it so fast it seems like you are just squeezing away when in fact you are using perfect trigger control, trapping the trigger to rear and never releasing beyond the point where the trigger resets. It allows for optimum speed and accuracy, by limiting wasted movement of your finger. Movement that would otherwise transfer to movement of the firearm negatively impacting accuracy.

On the S&W M&P, when you speed things up you end up literally slapping the trigger and you get all kinds of excess movement causing the firearms aim to shift all over the place. You can eventually train yourself out it, just as you can with any firearm. My argument would be, why should you? Why not chose a firearm with a short reset that gives you greater speed and accuracy right from the start? If you put the same amount of time into mastering a Glock, as you would have to in order to stop slapping the trigger on an M&P, I'd be willing to bet you would be drastically faster without sacrificing accuracy. Shorter trigger reset makes it that much easier to master your trigger control.

For me trigger reset is a critical factor in choosing a firearm. The only thing I place a higher value on is making sure each trigger pull weight is exactly the same...and that is another argument waiting to happen all on its own...though a related one. Once you go there the Sig, Beretta and CZ fans all flip out on you.

Good post. Blog worthy in fact for anybody that doesn't already shoot that way. I for one always shoot that way. The only thing I can think of is the gun was a S&W demo gun that may have been "tuned". The reset seemed really short. I haven't handled a Glock recently enough to make a comparison, but it seemed a lot better than the XD I shot the same day in the same caliber. I wasn't measuring it with calipers though. ;)

Edit: And yeah, I refuse to use anything with a DA/SA trigger unless I can carry in SA mode.

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 3:30 PM
Very critical for precision bullseye shooting.

For self-defense/practical pistol competition, not so much.

I think you are right in theory, but you're giving it too much importance. I think take-up, trigger creep and over-travel have more affect on practical accuracy than reset.

But I will acknowledge that the trigger reset distance is not a good feature on the XD. Although even the Glock's can benefit from improvement, it is better than the XD's. I just don't think that it is as big a deal as you make. I find trigger finger position, consistency of pull, and long spongy trigger feel affects accuracy far more.

I disogree about its importance in defensive shooting. A huge amount of time is spent on it in every class I've taken. It does blend right on in with other trigger control techniques. When you start to slip the first thing an instructor usually asks is, "are you trapping your trigger to the rear?". It doesn't feel natural at first, and when you are out of practice is it usually one of the first things to go. You have to beat it into yourself until it becomes second nature. Took me years before I didn't have to actually think about it to do it. Now I just do it. I don't have to think about it anymore. I'm still firing pretty darn fast, fast enough you would think I am not doing it, and it keeps me on target. That said, there are MUCH better shooters out there, and you may very well be one of them.

I completely agree the Glocks could be even better with regards to trigger reset. The H&K USP has a tiny trigger rest, and can be carried cocked and locked so you only have to deal with a very light trigger pull (the last part can be argued as a pro and a con) rather than the two different trigger pull weights. Most 1911s have a much better reset. The difference would be that those two weapon systems have thumb safety you have to fight with, which does slow you down on the initial drawl. Which starts leading you to an entirely different argument.

I have yet to find a firearm with the same trigger pull each time (my first priority), lack of a thumb safety (my third priority), with a shorter reset (my second priority) than the Glock. Believe me, I have looked.

I wanted to love the S&W M&P, Springfield XD, and Walther PP99QA as much as anybody. When they came out I ran down the gun store to dry fire them to see how the measured up on my list of 10 things I look for in a defensive handgun. Each and every time the biggest flaw was always trigger reset. In order to find a gun with a better rest and better overall trigger than a Glock I had to accept a thumb safety.

Now all of that said, I do like 1911s and H&K USPs. I am much better without a thumb safety and each has their unique list of goofy quirks you have to adjust to. But when it comes to a light, smooth trigger pull with a very short reset and every pull being exactly the same (when carried cocked and locked) those two weapon systems do really shine. However, if I were about to be dropped right into the middle of a firefight and was given a choice, I would want the backup to my rifle to be a Glock . I'm just better with it.

I also like the XD. There is a MASSIVELY LONG LIST of firearms I would choise the XD over every day of the week. I just don't think it is "equal" to the Glock. I think the Glock has one or two design features that give it the edge, despite its lack of looks and goofy finger grooves (for me grip angle is not an issue).

elSquid
10-15-2010, 3:36 PM
Now, if they fixed that and fixed the height over bore issue on the sights...I would love the XD. But those two issues lead me to favor the Glock.

So what is the "sight height over bore" distance for XDs? For Glocks? What's the delta, and how is that meaningful in practical usage?

-- Michael

elSquid
10-15-2010, 3:50 PM
So what is the "sight height over bore" distance for XDs? For Glocks? What's the delta, and how is that meaningful in practical usage?

So I took a pic of my XD9Tactical and G34 slides ( stock sights on each )...

https://sites.google.com/site/sqidbait/_/rsrc/1287182840932/glockxd/glockxdmod.JPG

-- Michael

BamBam-31
10-15-2010, 3:54 PM
^^^Need to take into account the thicker frame of the XD vs. the Glock, not just their respective slides.

Here's a better pic:

http://www.socalmedia.us/items/guns/SANY0027.JPG

And here's CGN's very own Hickok45 (around the 4:00 mark he goes over bore axis):

gk6zDGFqhgQ

Sturnovik
10-15-2010, 3:58 PM
Its really what feels best in your hand. I loved shooting the XD subcompact and it pointed very naturally. Even in the .40 and being such a small gun, it really didnt have much more recoil than even my p226 or revolver. Even so I tend to go with the glocks when its compact/full size duty guns. They just fit me better.

I own a glock but have shot XD's. I dont mind either. They both go through some pretty harsh torture tests and when it comes right down to it its what feels best and what saftey system you want. I'm not huge on grip safties but the XD had one and I didnt even think about it.

zfields
10-15-2010, 4:01 PM
How exactly does a "better grip angle" benefit you more that a shorter trigger reset? Trigger reset drills are emphasized in the most basic handgun training classes. You see first hand how the length of the reset affects your accuracy. The more the trigger has to travel before it resets, means the longer pull you have before you can fire again. The longer that pull is, the more movement you will have pulling you off target. In order to compensate you have to slow down. No matter how fast you get while still maintaining accuracy, you would have been faster on a Glock with the same time and effort into your training. Not talking about just squeezing away with no regards to shot placement, I am talking about effective shots at speed.

I am not saying the XD has the worst trigger rest ever. That would be the S&W M&P, the Sig DAK models and of course revolvers. I am just saying the XD has twice as long as the reset as found on a Glock, and that is a major determining factor towards which one is a better from a practical perspective.

I fully admit the XD fits most peoples hands more comfortably, but comfort is pretty low on the list of factors that make a great defensive/combat handgun. It ranks just above looks, which I could pretty much careless about also. I want speed, accuracy, and dependability. The Glock wins out on all three. I'm not going to be walking around all day long holding my handgun in my hand. It does not need to massage my palm. It does however need to be as fast, accurate and dependable as it can be so the only flaws I have to worry about are in my technique, and not in the firearm's design.

Until somebody makes a really comfortable gun that can match Glocks functionality, I'm just going to have to live with those goofy finger grooves (the grip angle does not bug me but the grooves in the compact and baby models are too narrow for my fingers while the regular size frame fits me just fine).

You can fix the reset with a trigger kit, cant fix a glocks grip angle! : )

elSquid
10-15-2010, 4:06 PM
^^^Need to take into account the thicker frame of the XD vs. the Glock, not just their respective slides.


Sure, but that's not the issue. Back in post #20 tactical city said the problem is that the distance between the sights and the bore cause issues... like an AR platform rifle when it's shot at close range. Of course the offset on an AR is 2.5+ inches. ;)

-- Michael

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 4:09 PM
You can fix the reset with a trigger kit, cant fix a glocks grip angle! : )


Yes you can with training or a grip reduction.

BamBam-31
10-15-2010, 4:09 PM
Sure, but that's not the issue. Back in post #20 tactical city said the problem is that the distance between the sights and the bore cause issues... like an AR platform rifle when it's shot at close range. Of course the offset on an AR is 2.5+ inches. ;)

-- Michael

Ah, my bad. Thought you were referring to overall bore axis comparisons with regards to muzzle flip & recoil. :o

Shenaniguns
10-15-2010, 4:13 PM
Ah, my bad. Thought you were referring to overall bore axis comparisons with regards to muzzle flip & recoil. :o



That's what I thought he was referring to as well.

elSquid
10-15-2010, 4:21 PM
Ah, my bad. Thought you were referring to overall bore axis comparisons with regards to muzzle flip & recoil. :o

No worries. XDs do have a high bore, which does change recoil characteristics.

:shrug:

-- Michael

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 4:24 PM
I was so focused/distracted on how much the trigger reset was messing with me that I did not notice the height over bore issues myself. So admit I'm getting that little tid bit from posts I've seen here and elsewhere combined with A) comments from instructors I trust who say they personally experienced it when I expressed my doubts that it was an issue B) taking a look at the slide and confirming the sights were indeed noticably a greater distance from the bore C) personal experience and training with how height over bore will affect your point of aim point of impact with regards to rifles...which logic says will translate to handguns as well.

So while my complaint about trigger rest is based 100% of first hand experience, I fully admit there is a lot of second hand and third hand knowledge affecting my opinion of what the noticable/measurable effect the height over bore issue is on the XD.

Delta Force, as I am sure you know is the nickname the media and general public saddled 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta with. Their real name sounds too much like the Special Forces, which is an entirely different unit all together. They call themselves, The Unit, which was recently made into a fairly cheesy but addictive TV Show for many gun nuts like ourselves.

Unlike most units, each Delta Force operator can pick and chose his own weapons unless that mission requires the use of something specific. By which I mean some missions require the operators to use only those weapons used by the native forces, as not to implicate the United States. This is particularly true of his side arm. Most opt for a Glock or 1911 variant. What is my source for that? One of many would be the book, "Kill Bin Laden" by Dalton Fury who was himself a Delta Force Team Leader now retired (that is a pen name by the way).

Pracitcality of Height Over Bore? Why does it matter? At longer distances height over bore is less likely to effect point of aim point of impact than when right on top of a target. The closer you get the more you manually have to raise your aim to actually hit the target where you want. How much you have to do this (in the case of rifles) depends on what distance you sighted in at and just how much higher your sights are above your bore. With a 25 yard sight in on a AR15 rifle you would roughly need to aim at a guy's hairline to make the perfect headshot into his occular cavity if you are within say 10-15 yards and closer. Most of the time it does not matter. An inch or two low is good enough to do the trick. However, if you absolutley must drop the guy with a shot to the occular cavity, then an inch or two low could make all the difference in the world. From a competition perspective, it could mean the difference between being over or under the line that scores the winning points. So there are times when it does truly matter. Exacly what the breaking points are on the XD vs Glock when height over bore becomes a noticable issue, I am affraid I do not have that data to pass on. I am sure somebody out there has made a chart by now? We have plenty of math geeks who love figuring that stuff out on this board (not being critical as I wish I had that skillset).

How does Delta choosing a Glock or 1911 speak to its being a superb weapon? Nobody does CQB like Delta. They have a virtually unlimted training budget, and the degree of handgun master they require to my knowledge far exceeds that of any other unit in the military. The other Special Forces (the guys John Wayne made a movie about) for example place a much higher emphasis on rifle training, and many of them are not all that great with a handgun (a perfect example aside from guys I personally know would the episode of Spike TV's Deadliest Warrior where the Green Beretts were really impressive with their rifles and no so much with their handguns and shotuns). So if I were going to take a military guy's advice on which handgun is best, I would place a greater value on the one with the most handgun training and experience. That would be Delta.

Likewise, SWAT teams in general train to a much higher standard with their handguns and rifles than the average police officer. Unlike a lot of officers who let their training lapse over time and only worry about qualifying once a year, SWAT officers train daily. SWAT's firearms choices are usually not dictated to them by someone else. So performance rather then politics or legal issues drive their choices. So if I were going to take a police officer's advice on which handgun is best I would trust a SWAT officer over a Homicide Detective or Patrolman every time. He pressumably has the greater experience and training.

Now, I'm not a delta operator and I am not a SWAT team member. But the odds are that if I ever have to use my weapon to defend my life or the lives of others, I'm going to be doing so at the CQB distances they train for. So it benifits me to model my firearms training and way of thinking after theirs, since they are the experts at CQB. I will never reach their skill level, I am too lazy for that. But they make great roll models for me. Stone Cobra Tactical who I train with is run by active SWAT guys. I've seen first hand how their techniques and tactics have drastically improved my shooting ability. So I trust their advice, and they highly favor Glocks and 1911s. As has every firearms instructor I've ever trained with.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 4:25 PM
Ah, my bad. Thought you were referring to overall bore axis comparisons with regards to muzzle flip & recoil. :o

The bore height issue needs to be the angle and radius from the center of where the webbing of the shooting hand meets the back strap to the chamber of the barrel. You could then convert that into a circular force vector, and factor in mass to get the momentum vector that has to be overcome. The pictures of guns from the front showing a difference in bore height over the guide rod is a physics 101 fail when talking about recoil.

BamBam-31
10-15-2010, 4:25 PM
You can fix the reset with a trigger kit, cant fix a glocks grip angle! : )

I have a $200 (including shipping) trigger job on my XD-45 Tactical from Canyon Creek. Great trigger--much lighter and crisper, with shorter reset and overall travel. That said, the reset on my Glocks are still shorter and more positive than my XD.

As for grip angle, Glocks are angled like Lugers, and Lugers have what many consider an ergonomically ideal grip angle. We Americans are used to shooting pistols with more 1911-like grip angles, so that's what we consider "natural." The Luger grip angle, however, is closest to how your hand points naturally. That's why Olympic target pistols use the Luger grip angle--you don't have to fight it as much to aim as you would a 1911-type grip angle.

Gryff
10-15-2010, 4:28 PM
You can fix the reset with a trigger kit, cant fix a glocks grip angle! : )

If you really want a Glock, you can train yourself to get used to the grip angle. My wife loves her G34 and G26, and doesn't care for my XD. I love my XD Tactical and M&P Compact, but don't care for Glock ergonomics. The point is, again, find what works for you.

Of the three main tupperware guns being discussed here (XD, Glock, M&P), you're not making a serious mistake picking one over the other if you are chosing the one that you shoot the best.

As for grip angle, Glocks are angled like Lugers, and Lugers have what many consider an ergonomically ideal grip angle. We Americans are used to shooting pistols with more 1911-like grip angles, so that's what we consider "natural." The Luger grip angle, however, is closest to how your hand points naturally. That's why Olympic target pistols use the Luger grip angle--you don't have to fight it as much to aim as you would a 1911-type grip angle.

There are a whole lotta people who would argue exactly the opposite. Ask yourself why far more fighting guns across the world have a grip that looks closer to a 1911 than they do a Luger. Even the Germans moved away from the Luger-type grip for their military handguns.

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 4:30 PM
Its really what feels best in your hand.

That right there is where we disgogree BIG TIME. My entire argument is that how it fits in your hand is just one tiny part of the equation, and that other factors that are much less subjective determine which is the superior firearm.

The hand fit test tells you almost nothing about how the firearm performs.

A Beretta 92 with hogue grips is arguably the best feeling handgun in your hand. Does that mean the 8lbs first DA trigger pull is not a bear to master? Does that mean that mastering DA/SA will be easier than mastering a firearm like a Glock or XD where each trigger pull is the same?

I'm sorry man, but the hand fit test is not the end all be all way to choose a firearm. There is a lot more to it than that. I am not saying it is not a consideration, I am just saying people place WAY too much emphasis on it.

BamBam-31
10-15-2010, 4:39 PM
The bore height issue needs to be the angle and radius from the center of where the webbing of the shooting hand meets the back strap to the chamber of the barrel. You could then convert that into a circular force vector, and factor in mass to get the momentum vector that has to be overcome. The pictures of guns from the front showing a difference in bore height over the guide rod is a physics 101 fail when talking about recoil.

Actually, we have an assumption fail (like the one I made above :p). The picture was meant to show the difference between the bottoms of each respective frame and the height of each bore in relation. I never said anything about guide rods. ;)

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 4:43 PM
If you really want a Glock, you can train yourself to get used to the grip angle. My wife loves her G34 and G26, and doesn't care for my XD. I love my XD Tactical and M&P Compact, but don't care for Glock ergonomics. The point is, again, find what works for you.

Of the three main tupperware guns being discussed here (XD, Glock, M&P), you're not making a serious mistake picking one over the other if you are chosing the one that you shoot the best.

They are all on my top 10 handgun list. Probably even top 5. So I am not arguing with you there.

The only reason I feel the argument is important, and worth having over and over again rather is that very few people get a chance to truly figure out what really works best for them. Budgetary concerns, lack of training, the normal range rules, stores not allowing dry fire, and on and on make it hard to put each gun through the paces before you buy.

I'd just like to see more people actually measuring the gun on how it actually performs for them than how it felt in their hand at the gun store.

You hear again and again, get the one that feels best in your hand. I took that advice at first and purchased a Beretta 96. It was a bear to learn on. Switching to a Glock made a night and day difference. So for me, the fit in the hand end all be all way of deciding to get a gun is bad advice. Take everything into account, and then choose. If it ends up being the one that fit best in your hand, so be it. You made an educated choice. Good for you. My decision to start off with a Beretta, was definately not an educated choice.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 4:43 PM
Actually, we have an assumption fail (like the one I made above :p). The picture was meant to show the difference between the bottoms of each respective frame and the height of each bore in relation. I never said anything about guide rods. ;)

I know. Most vs threads eventually bring up bore height and use a picture virtually identical to that to try and say that the distance from the bottom of the frame to the bore axis is somehow a critical metric. I was just pointing out that if the picture was about bore height, it would not be physically relevant.

rbaker5150
10-15-2010, 4:45 PM
Stupid video. It never gave me the answer!!

That is some funny stuff. For me, I have a Glock. Why? The internet told me so.

tacticalcity
10-15-2010, 4:49 PM
Actually, we have an assumption fail (like the one I made above :p). The picture was meant to show the difference between the bottoms of each respective frame and the height of each bore in relation. I never said anything about guide rods. ;)

I had a conceptual error of what the actual problem is. For which I apologize. The guy who posted the video clarified it for me and offered a much better explanation of it, though it is still a tad vague and some math geeks might be able to a better job explaining it with charts or something. I admitted I needed more information to better understand what was going on there, and thus my main complaint about the XD was the trigger reset length. Which is not horrible, but twice that of the Glocks. Never the less, there is a design issue in addition to the trigger rest. It might not matter to you, but it something that should at the very least be looked at and considered. If after you have considered it, it falls into the who cares category so be it. Your choice was an informed one.

The core of my argument is that there is a lot more to choosing a gun than the hand fit test. Thus the constant back and forth about which is better does serve a purpose. It educates people about the various firearms, gets them thinking about how those differences might effect them...and with any luck encourages them to take some professional firearms courses so they can put all of our arguments to the test first hand and as a result become safer, more skilled firearms owners.

For those of us who have already weighed all the options, and have some training and continue to get more, this is just a chance share the opinions we have formed and lessons we have learned with the guys just now looking at buying their first handgun.

I have nothing personally invested in which firearm you chose. I just want to raise the level of debate...and level of advice.

inbox485
10-15-2010, 5:14 PM
A picture with some common reference points annotated:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_m3ZmAJ4KVYY/TLjt8FtUouI/AAAAAAAAA2E/kjVMfNFRXCg/s512/XD45%20vs%20G21.JPG