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bubbapug1
10-10-2010, 7:52 PM
I found this on ARF while trying to find a fix for my malufunctioning pistol.

Post #5...letter from the ATF to a questions...note the branch, Santa Ana.

The letter specifically states use of a rifle lower never barreled as a rifle can be used for a pistol build.

Am I reading this correctly?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=511915

Dead*Reckoned
10-10-2010, 7:57 PM
News to me...

jaymz
10-10-2010, 8:00 PM
You are reading it correctly, but it applies to Fed. rules and regs. May be ok at the Fed. level, but not CA state level. I'm not at all familiar with AR pistol laws, but I'm sure someone that is will check in shortly.

ke6guj
10-10-2010, 8:00 PM
yes, you are reading it correctly. However, CA law requires it be DROSed as a "long gun" and nobody is certain if that long gun DROS forever taints the lower as a rifle/shotgun lower in CA. Many of us are of the opinion that you should be able to build up a long gun DROSed stripped virgin receiver into a pistol (without violating CA's SBR laws), but it isn't worth the potential legal fees, at this point in time, to find out if we are correct. EXpecially since pistol DROSed AR-pistols can be acquired easily enough.

Colt-45
10-10-2010, 8:00 PM
Good to hear. Thanks for sharing.

So something like this would be completely legal in another state such as AZ and TX?

Lagduf
10-10-2010, 8:41 PM
I wonder if there is any chance of adding "frame" or "receiver" to the DROS system.

EDIT: Actually I guess if the Handgun Roster went away we could DROS a lower receiver as a Pistol could we not, or is there something I'm missing?

dfletcher
10-10-2010, 8:41 PM
I found this on ARF while trying to find a fix for my malufunctioning pistol.

Post #5...letter from the ATF to a questions...note the branch, Santa Ana.

The letter specifically states use of a rifle lower never barreled as a rifle can be used for a pistol build.

Am I reading this correctly?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=511915

In all other states you can buy a stripped lower OR a lower with a buttstock attached, 4473 it as "other" and build it as a handgun.

dfletcher
10-10-2010, 8:59 PM
yes, you are reading it correctly. However, CA law requires it be DROSed as a "long gun" and nobody is certain if that long gun DROS forever taints the lower as a rifle/shotgun lower in CA. Many of us are of the opinion that you should be able to build up a long gun DROSed stripped virgin receiver into a pistol (without violating CA's SBR laws), but it isn't worth the potential legal fees, at this point in time, to find out if we are correct. Especially since pistol DROSed AR-pistols can be acquired easily enough.

I understand the DROS obstacle regarding AR frames and pistol status. Is the purpose of DROS to merely document status or to determine status? For example. Let's say a few years ago a person purchased a T/C Encore rifle. Riflr buttstock, 20" barrel attached - 4473'd as a long gun. At some point the person decided to turn it into a handgun, a violation of law, but for the sake of discussion let's say the person was unaware and drifted along happily for a few years. They move to CA and sell the firearm, it's DROS'd as a handgun. Does this preclude the person from being prosecuted by the state for converting a rifle to a handgun (Feds a different matter I suppose) because "DROS determines status"? Or, can the state still prosecute because "DROS only documents status"?

If DROS merely documents status it seems we should, at some point, have the option to say "DROS the stripped/buttstocked receiver as a handgun". If it determines status it seems we sould be able to use that "official" classification to some advantage - although I can't quite figure out how, yet .....:(

dantodd
10-10-2010, 9:34 PM
If DROS merely documents status it seems we should, at some point, have the option to say "DROS the stripped/buttstocked receiver as a handgun". If it determines status it seems we sould be able to use that "official" classification to some advantage - although I can't quite figure out how, yet .....:(

To be DROSed as a handgun it must either be on the roster or be exempt. To be exempt it has to be single shot and dimensionally compliant, and an actual handgun. So, as long as the roster is an issue you cannot simply DROS as a handgun. However; you could conceivably DROS as a long gun then PPT as a handgun as there is no law preventing one from turning a long gun into a handgun. But this is not advised as it could well create DOJ drama that could be costly to untangle and may not play out the way you or I contend it should.

wildhawker
10-10-2010, 9:36 PM
Haven't we beat this to death enough?

Those who want to take chances until we resolve the issue should be prepared to pay a minimum of $5k (likely $15k) to retain a quality defense/firearm attorney for their defense.

Or, and my preference, go buy a factory-built pistol at any one of the FFLs who stock them and have a blast at the range by spending the same money on ammo and lube. Alternatively, there's always a PPT of an existing pistol lower/configured weapon.

We will post when we have news; the only time we withhold information is if releasing it would compromise an ongoing or future action.

jtmkinsd
10-10-2010, 9:44 PM
California is it's own special animal...the reason there is the "other" category on the federal form 4473 is specifically because you can make your receiver into a pistol if you wish. This is why there was such a big deal about transferring lowers (even complete assembled lowers) to persons under 21 years of age.

wildhawker
10-10-2010, 9:53 PM
To be DROSed as a handgun it must either be on the roster or be exempt. To be exempt it has to be single shot and dimensionally compliant, and an actual handgun. So, as long as the roster is an issue you cannot simply DROS as a handgun. However; you could conceivably DROS as a long gun then PPT as a handgun as there is no law preventing one from turning a long gun into a handgun. But this is not advised as it could well create DOJ drama that could be costly to untangle and may not play out the way you or I contend it should.

Unfortunately, DROSing a long gun lower as a pistol immediately creates a non-Rostered handgun. Ergo, the lower must first be fully configured as a Roster-exempt handgun in order to PPT as a pistol, which incurs the very risk we're working through but advise people not to get anywhere near for now.

Cokebottle
10-10-2010, 9:58 PM
Unfortunately, DROSing a long gun lower as a pistol immediately creates a non-Rostered handgun. Ergo, the lower must first be fully configured as a Roster-exempt handgun in order to PPT as a pistol, which incurs the very risk we're working through but advise people not to get anywhere near for now.
We need for one of two things to happen....

1 - The roster to fall.
2 - DROS modified to include "other".

A stripped lower is neither a handgun nor a long gun. It should not be processed as either.

bubbapug1
10-10-2010, 10:12 PM
Wow, what a can of worms.

wildhawker
10-10-2010, 10:14 PM
We need for one of two things to happen....

1 - The roster to fall.
2 - DROS modified to include "other".

A stripped lower is neither a handgun nor a long gun. It should not be processed as either.

Working on both. That's all I can say at this time.

Everyone, stay patient.

dfletcher
10-10-2010, 11:08 PM
To be DROSed as a handgun it must either be on the roster or be exempt. To be exempt it has to be single shot and dimensionally compliant, and an actual handgun. So, as long as the roster is an issue you cannot simply DROS as a handgun. However; you could conceivably DROS as a long gun then PPT as a handgun as there is no law preventing one from turning a long gun into a handgun. But this is not advised as it could well create DOJ drama that could be costly to untangle and may not play out the way you or I contend it should.

Just to clarify, it is illegal to reconfigure a long gun as a handgun. Just want to ensure we're using the same terms in the same way.

When you use the phrase "turning a long gun into a handgun" you are speaking of the DROS documentation - correct? In other words, DROS documents but does not determine status.

I suppose the simple question is, does DROS impart legal status of a long gun simply by being processed that way, especially when the 4473 says "other"?

wildhawker
10-10-2010, 11:18 PM
Just to clarify, it is illegal to reconfigure a long gun as a handgun. Just want to ensure we're using the same terms in the same way.

It is not necessarily illegal to configure a non-rifle/shotgun long gun into or from a handgun.

When you use the phrase "turning a long gun into a handgun" you are speaking of the DROS documentation - correct? In other words, DROS documents but does not determine status.

We're simply not sure yet.

I suppose the simple question is, does DROS impart legal status of a long gun simply by being processed that way, especially when the 4473 says "other"?

That is the question, or at least one of them.

dantodd
10-10-2010, 11:57 PM
Just to clarify, it is illegal to reconfigure a long gun as a handgun. Just want to ensure we're using the same terms in the same way.

As Brandon says, there are laws against turning a rifle or a shotgun into a handgun. I am aware of no such general prohibition for long guns. Also, while it may be perfectly compliant with statute that doesn't mean you won't be spending a boatload of money on a defense atty. While I find these discussions interesting on an intellectual level it is the sorts of things that only those well funded and directly working with CGF on proper strategy should contemplate. As Brandon also said they are working on it.

Anchors
10-11-2010, 2:00 AM
Hmm I didn't know that about lowers on the Fed level.
I need to pick up a lower when I go home for winter intercession and New Resident Handgun transfer it.
Then again in that same thought I guess I could just buy it as a pistol lower in AZ without any trouble haha.

I can't wait until the roster gets canned. And the "high-capacity ammunition feeding device" law. And CCW.
And maybe a better castle doctrine someday...(most important to me.)

It's nice to watch all these things starting to culminate for us in California. I think if you give it five years or less we'll all be laughing about 10-round mags and the off-roster $200 ppt premium.

dantodd
10-11-2010, 2:25 AM
And maybe a better castle doctrine someday...(most important to me.)


What's wrong with CA's current castle doctrine, it has pretty much everything I need in it.

Anchors
10-11-2010, 2:41 AM
What's wrong with CA's current castle doctrine, it has pretty much everything I need in it.

I have to prove I was in fear for my life or great bodily injury in my own house.
And because the castle doctrine here doesn't shield those cleared of criminal wrongdoing from civil suits.

I am not going to pay the family of the guy I shot breaking into my house a dime.
And I firmly believe that if someone enters your home against your will that you have the right to exercise force up to and including lethal at your discretion.
Hence the root of the term "Castle Doctrine", "My home is my castle".

dfletcher
10-11-2010, 7:44 AM
As Brandon says, there are laws against turning a rifle or a shotgun into a handgun. I am aware of no such general prohibition for long guns. Also, while it may be perfectly compliant with statute that doesn't mean you won't be spending a boatload of money on a defense atty. While I find these discussions interesting on an intellectual level it is the sorts of things that only those well funded and directly working with CGF on proper strategy should contemplate. As Brandon also said they are working on it.


Just wanted to ensure we're using the same terms & that reconfiguring a long gun to a handgun is a violation of federal law; and that a stripped receiver doesn't meet the federal definition of a long gun. Since the federal government has carved out specific rules regarding stripped receivers and determined a firearm does not achieve long gun status until configured as a long gun, does it seem reasonable to believe ATF would determine a receiver 4473'd as "other" (DROS'd as long gun) would not meet the critera for long gun status?

If I purchase and DROS a receiver (as long gun) in CA and leave the state, am I prohibited from configuring the receiver as a handgun?

Does CA law prohibit reconfiguring a long gun to a handgun? If CA law does not prohibit and ATF affirms the 4473/physical configuration determines status, is there a violation of law?

It seems to me CA is in some sort of "Catch 22" since the federal government adopted the "4473 as other" rule. DROS doesn't have "other" so BOF is defaulting to "close enough while ruling against gun ownership".

I wouldn't try such a thing except with solid legal advice and even then probably not be 1st in line, but it seems one could comply with CA and federal law on this issue and the whole DROS restriction is questionable.

dantodd
10-11-2010, 9:16 AM
Just wanted to ensure we're using the same terms & that reconfiguring a long gun to a handgun is a violation of federal law;

No. To the best of my knowledge there is no law prohibiting the re-configuration of a long arm that is neither a rifle nor a shotgun into a pistol. As far as I know the only prohibitions are on configuring rifles and shotguns into handguns. I am certain it is not prohibited by CA law and have never seen any Fed law prohibiting it.

CHS
10-11-2010, 9:54 AM
Hey, my letter is famous now :)

Yeah, I wrote that question to ask of the ATF.

Inspector James Palm was very friendly and helpful to me getting that thing drafter up, and the answer was what we both expected coming from the ATF. It actually shows consistency on their part.

There is no such thing as a "rifle" receiver. You have rifles, pistols, shotguns, and receivers. Once a receiver has been built into a rifle, it's no longer a receiver but is now a rifle. Since LMT's only have buttstocks, they are still receivers (and must be sold to persons 21 years of age or older).




Brandon, call me tomorrow about this. Sorry that I haven't returned your email. Life has been hectic lately.