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Deadbolt
10-06-2010, 10:22 AM
http://czcustom.com/cz75b9sn.aspx


I see on the list things like " CZ 75 B (Black)"

does that mean that the nickel model is no good ? or .....

jtmkinsd
10-06-2010, 10:46 AM
http://czcustom.com/cz75b9sn.aspx


I see on the list things like " CZ 75 B (Black)"

does that mean that the nickel model is no good ? or .....

In this instance the nickel model is a no go for most FFLs. This is an area of contention I have with the law. The law states that unlisted firearms which are identical to listed firearms except in cosmetic only differences "shall be deemed to satisfy [the list]." The manufacturer may "seek" to have the unlisted gun added to the list by submitting a bunch of paperwork. Most FFLs will not accept it unless the exact gun is listed.

Deadbolt
10-06-2010, 10:50 AM
sob. thanks for the response

edit: wait so this model IS TECHNICALLY ok because its only different is cosmetic ? So if I were to deal with an FFL that knew CZ's well (and the law), id have a chance?


anyone have a recommended FFL ?

i1800collect
10-06-2010, 10:59 AM
edit: wait so this model IS TECHNICALLY ok because its only different is cosmetic ? So if I were to deal with an FFL that knew CZ's well (and the law), id have a chance?

I don't think that's how it works. I'm pretty sure the exact model has to be on the roster, down to the exact same color. The manufacturer can apply for the gun to be added to the roster and they can use that stipulation in the law to try and skip the drop test, but that's up to the manufacturer.

Deadbolt
10-06-2010, 11:17 AM
damn thats a bummer. Im not a fan of that pistol in black / blued

SJgunguy24
10-06-2010, 11:31 AM
damn thats a bummer. Im not a fan of that pistol in black / blued

Valkyrie Arms in Milpitas

jtmkinsd
10-06-2010, 11:36 AM
I don't think that's how it works. I'm pretty sure the exact model has to be on the roster, down to the exact same color. The manufacturer can apply for the gun to be added to the roster and they can use that stipulation in the law to try and skip the drop test, but that's up to the manufacturer.

This is my pet peeve...the law states if it only differs in finish or color then it is "deemed" to satisfy the list requirement...nowhere does it state the manufacturer "MUST" add it to the list...it only has a provision in which the manufacturer "CAN" add it if they "seek" to. I'm of the opinion that everyone just goes along with what DOJ says, but I call BS on it because of how the law is written.

Deadbolt
10-06-2010, 11:38 AM
Valkyrie Arms in Milpitas

do you mean they can help out with the cosmetically different model ?


or are you suggesting them for refinishing ?

sniper4usmc
10-06-2010, 11:43 AM
SKU # is differ for nickel model,therefore no go in California

SJgunguy24
10-06-2010, 11:48 AM
do you mean they can help out with the cosmetically different model ?


or are you suggesting them for refinishing ?

How do we get AK pistols and AR pistols submitted for DROS?

i1800collect
10-06-2010, 11:49 AM
do you mean they can help out with the cosmetically different model ?


or are you suggesting them for refinishing ?

I think he's suggesting Valkyrie Arms as a source for getting off roster handguns through the single shot exemption.

SJgunguy24
10-06-2010, 11:53 AM
I think he's suggesting Valkyrie Arms as a source for getting off roster handguns through the single shot exemption.

This.

shooting4life
10-06-2010, 11:54 AM
How do we get AK pistols and AR pistols submitted for DROS?

Single shot exemption

himurax13
10-06-2010, 11:55 AM
How do we get AK pistols and AR pistols submitted for DROS?

They use the single shot pistol exemption.

SJgunguy24
10-06-2010, 12:01 PM
http://czcustom.com/cz75b9sn.aspx


I see on the list things like " CZ 75 B (Black)"

does that mean that the nickel model is no good ? or .....



Single shot exemption

They use the single shot pistol exemption.

The answer in bold.

Heiko
10-06-2010, 2:53 PM
This roster thing is just... just... argh!!!

Here is what the law is on things like different finishes on the same gun with respect to how a manufacturer can get around recertifying the same gun in a different finish.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this
section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the
following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer
seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which
listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more
of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other
respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require
a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which
listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model
complies with the requirements of this section.

Librarian
10-06-2010, 7:26 PM
This roster thing is just... just... argh!!!

Here is what the law is on things like different finishes on the same gun with respect to how a manufacturer can get around recertifying the same gun in a different finish.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this
section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the
following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer
seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which
listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more
of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other
respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require
a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which
listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model
complies with the requirements of this section.

Please note 12131.5(a) says IF the differences are as listed, you don't have to test these - no giving the lab 3 copies, no testing fee, no supplying ammo.

12131.5(b) says the guns still must be listed on the Roster - fee paid, expiration date; if they're not on the Roster, 12125 says they cannot be sold to those not exempt from the Roster.

jtmkinsd
10-06-2010, 7:37 PM
Please note 12131.5(a) says IF the differences are as listed, you don't have to test these - no giving the lab 3 copies, no testing fee, no supplying ammo.

12131.5(b) says the guns still must be listed on the Roster - fee paid, expiration date; if they're not on the Roster, 12125 says they cannot be sold to those not exempt from the Roster.

12125 says no selling "unsafe" handguns...that's all

12131 establishes the list (what's considered "safe" handguns)

12131.5 says any handgun which is only different from a listed gun in the cosmetic only features it lists are "deemed" to satisfy (12131...safe handgun list)

CrazyJeep
10-06-2010, 9:59 PM
Sorry for somewhat hijacking the thread, but I figured since the roster is being discussed here, might as well shoot a question about it.

How exactly does the roster work concerning models of pistols. Are they related by serial number or by what is stamped on the side of the firearm? Using the OP's CZ gun in question as an example, is the DOJ not rostering that gun because CZ hasn't submitted the nickel model for evaluation? With all things being equal (gun mechanics, not finish), would that gun even be allowed to be shipped into California to a non LEO and be DROS'd if the gunstore didn't put "nickel" in the color box, or would the DOJ be able to determine the difference from the serial number?

Librarian
10-06-2010, 10:25 PM
How exactly does the roster work concerning models of pistols. Are they related by serial number or by what is stamped on the side of the firearm?

I'm pretty sure the Roster descriptions are based on the description provided by the manufacturer. OTOH, look, for example, at Springfield - their model numbers seem to be related to some collection of physical characteristics.
Using the OP's CZ gun in question as an example, is the DOJ not rostering that gun because CZ hasn't submitted the nickel model for evaluation?
Probably they don't care to pay the fee for every possible finish; ask them, a number of gun manufacturers have been forthcoming about their plans r/t the Roster.

With all things being equal (gun mechanics, not finish), would that gun even be allowed to be shipped into California to a non LEO and be DROS'd if the gunstore didn't put "nickel" in the color box, or would the DOJ be able to determine the difference from the serial number?
Not the serial number; and, it would need to be shipped to an FFL holder - the enforcement is mostly through the DROS software.

Librarian
10-06-2010, 10:30 PM
12125 says no selling "unsafe" handguns...that's all

12131 establishes the list (what's considered "safe" handguns)

12131.5 says any handgun which is only different from a listed gun in the cosmetic only features it lists are "deemed" to satisfy (12131...safe handgun list)

Please read further the California Code of Regulations 11 CCR 4070 - which, as I am sure you know, is law.

Current Section§ 4070. Roster of Certified Handguns.

(a) Within 10 days of the receipt of the Compliance Test Report, Form FD 021 (Rev. 6-00), and one prototype handgun, from the DOJ-Certified Laboratory; and the receipt of the initial annual listing fee from the manufacturer/importer, the DOJ will determine whether the handgun is not unsafe and may be sold in California. After the determination that the model may be listed, the DOJ will add the handgun model to the Roster of Certified Handguns. The listing will be valid for one year from the date the model was added to the Roster, and shall be renewed as set forth in § 4071 of these regulations.

(b) Within 10 days of the receipt of the initial annual listing fee and a request from a manufacturer/importer to have a handgun model added to the Roster pursuant to Penal Code § 12131.5, the DOJ will determine whether the handgun model may be listed without testing. After the determination that the model may be listed, the DOJ will add the handgun model to the Roster. The listing will be valid for one year from the date the model was added to the Roster, and shall be renewed as set forth in § 4071 of these regulations.
'Not unsafe' handguns, deemed so via 12131.5, must be added to the Roster before they can be sold.