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View Full Version : AO PKZSE vs PKZA vs PKZ


halifax
10-01-2010, 4:10 PM
OK fellow dealers I need some help. This is what's listed on the roster:

Auto Ordnance 1911 A-1 PKZA / Parkerized Steel

This is what I'm finding at my wholesalers:

1911PKZSE (a few places)

and

1911PKZ (Sports South)

What you say? Are they OK for CA?

ETA: Kahr website:

1911PKZSE/1911PKZSEW

jtmkinsd
10-01-2010, 5:58 PM
OK fellow dealers I need some help. This is what's listed on the roster:

Auto Ordnance 1911 A-1 PKZA / Parkerized Steel

This is what I'm finding at my wholesalers:

1911PKZSE (a few places)

and

1911PKZ (Sports South)

What you say?

ETA: Kahr website:

1911PKZSE/1911PKZSEW

They're all the same gun. SE has different grips than the SEW.
Acusport has an office in CA: Roseville, CA (800) 543-3150 Auto Ordnance wholesaler...give them a call

kemasa
10-02-2010, 9:29 AM
The model number makes a difference, as stupid as it is. If the EXACT model is not listed, then it is not acceptable. You can call the CA DOJ to confirm if a model is actually listed. If the only difference is that it has night sights, then it is allowed.

In this case, the model you are listing is different and therefore it is not on the list.

If there are minor differences, the manufacturer can add it to the list without testing, but I assume it still costs money to do so. There is a S&W will different color grips and one is on the list and the other is not, so one can be sold and the other can not. Also, a customer recently wanted a firearm and the only difference was the grips, but it was not allowed due to the change.

halifax
10-02-2010, 10:02 AM
The model number makes a difference, as stupid as it is. If the EXACT model is not listed, then it is not acceptable. You can call the CA DOJ to confirm if a model is actually listed. If the only difference is that it has night sights, then it is allowed.

In this case, the model you are listing is different and therefore it is not on the list.

If there are minor differences, the manufacturer can add it to the list without testing, but I assume it still costs money to do so. There is a S&W will different color grips and one is on the list and the other is not, so one can be sold and the other can not. Also, a customer recently wanted a firearm and the only difference was the grips, but it was not allowed due to the change.

Thanks kemasa. I was hoping someone here knew if the extra suffix was extraneous like some of the Springfield models. Since AO doesn't even list a model # that matches the one on the roster; I guess they are no longer selling these in CA.

I'll call Kahr on Monday.

jtmkinsd
10-02-2010, 1:25 PM
The specific law doesn't say a manufacturer shall list a model that is already on the list but differs only in a cosmetic way...it only says they can "seek" to list it. My question is where does it say you can change the sights and it's ok? I don't want to give DOJ any benefit of the doubt about any of this...they might say you can't bring it in...but show me where it is in the law.

(a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this
section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the
following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer
seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which
listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more
of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other
respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require
a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which
listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model
complies with the requirements of this section.

halifax
10-02-2010, 4:04 PM
The specific law doesn't say a manufacturer shall list a model that is already on the list but differs only in a cosmetic way...it only says they can "seek" to list it. My question is where does it say you can change the sights and it's ok? I don't want to give DOJ any benefit of the doubt about any of this...they might say you can't bring it in...but show me where it is in the law.

...

I think kemasa was referring to the notice in the header on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale (http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/) that says, in red, "All handguns listed on the roster are approved with or without night sights." That's all, just a determination made by the DOJ.

kemasa
10-02-2010, 5:57 PM
If they do not list a similar model, then you can't get it. They don't have to list it, but they can by submitting the information required under section (b), which you quoted, which includes (b) 1-3.

Regarding the night sights, please see http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/ where is says "All handguns listed on the roster are approved with or without night sights."

jtmkinsd
10-02-2010, 8:16 PM
Ok...I got the night sight thing, though there's no basis for it in the law...I'm still curious about the wording of the statute though. The PKZ has black checkered plastic grips. The PKZSEW is simply a PKZ with wooden grips. The PKZSE is a PKZ with brown checkered plastic grips. Exact same gun...only different grips.

CA PC 12131: Establishes the "list"

(a) On and after January 1, 2001, the Department of Justice
shall compile, publish, and thereafter maintain a roster listing all
of the pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being
concealed upon the person that have been tested by a certified
testing laboratory, have been determined not to be unsafe handguns,
and may be sold in this state pursuant to this title. The roster
shall list, for each firearm, the manufacturer, model number, and
model name.

CA PC 12131.5: States if a gun is on the list and is offered with cosmetic only differences, it "shall be deemed to satisfy [CA PC 12131]"

(a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made

Where it talks about adding the unlisted gun...nowhere does it state it "shall" be added by going through the letter process...it merely states if a manufacturer "seeks" to add it to the list they can. But the first paragraph of the law clearly states the gun, if it is a listed gun that only has cosmetic differences, then it is "deemed" to satisfy the listing requirement.

The language is extremely important here.

halifax
10-03-2010, 4:17 AM
OK. But if the cosmetically different firearm is not on the DROS' dropdown list, how would it, legally, get DROS'd ? Does the dealer just choose the original model?

kemasa
10-03-2010, 6:42 AM
Have you read section (b)?


(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this
section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the
following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer
seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which
listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more
of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other
respects identical to the listed firearm.


You have to read the WHOLE section.


Where it talks about adding the unlisted gun...nowhere does it state it "shall" be added by going through the letter process...it merely states if a manufacturer "seeks" to add it to the list they can.


Incorrect, (b) states that the letter is required to add a firearm which applies to (a). The section is saying that the testing of the firearm is not required, that models of the firearm are not required, unless the DOJ asks for it to confirm the claim. Yes, it states that if a manufacturer "seeks" to add it to the list that they can, which allows for the transfer of the firearms as a dealer sale, otherwise it can not.

If (b) is not followed, then it does not matter if it qualifies or not as it will not be listed.

jtmkinsd
10-03-2010, 9:19 AM
It's an interpretation difference...the wording of (b) doesn't "require" the listing. If a customer came to me with a PKZSE or PKZSEW, then I would DROS it as a PKZ. I'm not going to deny the customer because the pigment in the plastic grips is different, or because the grip is wood, not plastic.

halifax
10-03-2010, 9:32 AM
It's an interpretation difference...the wording of (b) doesn't "require" the listing. If a customer came to me with a PKZSE or PKZSEW, then I would DROS it as a PKZ. I'm not going to deny the customer because the pigment in the plastic grips is different, or because the grip is wood, not plastic.

But a PKZ isn't on the roster either. It's listed as Auto Ordnance 1911 A-1 PKZA / Parkerized Steel . Are you sure it's just a difference in grip color/material?

Like I mentioned, I have sent an email to Kahr for clarification.

kemasa
10-03-2010, 9:40 AM
In order to allow the firearm to be sold as a dealer transfer, it has to be listed. (b) is how it is listed. No, it does not "require" the listing, meaning that the company does not have to have it listed and does not have to pay, but in order for the firearm to be transferred it IS required to be listed. I don't understand how you can read that to think that you can transfer a firearm which is not on the list.

Take a look at the Glock 17, it is listed in the regular color and OD. There is a reason for that, even though the firearms are the same, other than the color. The Sig Pink Mosquito, the various camo versions, etc. are not on the list and can not be legally transferred as a dealer sale. There is a S&W with black grips and one with pink grips, one is legal and the other is not. The examples go on and on.

The law is stupid since it should be based on the functioning parts, not the grips, color, finish or anything else, but that is the way it is, at least for now.

If you transfer a firearm which is not on the list, then you are not following the law. Common sense does not overrule the law, unfortunately. You can call and ask the CA DOJ on this and also promote people to push to get the law removed, or at a minimum, changed, that it is more reasonable. There is some hope that this whole thing will go away due to the court cases, but until then ...

kemasa
10-03-2010, 9:43 AM
Actually, it does not matter if it is just a difference in grip color or material, it matters if the model number changes. Well, actually, there was one case in which the grip changed and the model number did not and therefore it was not legal to transfer as a change was made. There are many things that you can say about that, none of them good.

jtmkinsd
10-03-2010, 10:34 PM
I understand your point...and as I said before I wouldn't choose this one to go down in flames over...I just look at the wording of the law, and it seems there is a lot more wiggle room than anyone is willing to admit to...much like the C&R 1 in 30 exemption. Just because the state left out the part about the exemption only being for C&Rs...C&R holders can buy multiple modern handguns...Now Federal law explicitly states a C&R license is only valid for the purchase of C&R firearms...everyone gets around the 1 in 30 rule by saying "It doesn't say in the state law the C&R + COE is only for C&R handguns." You wouldn't say that's some creative interpretation of the law?

Just saying the differences in the language between parts (a) and (b) of the code in question is very striking. IMHO

I'll be interested in seeing what halifax finds out from kahr...to be honest...in all the pages I've visited looking at the AO 1911...I've yet to see one that ends in PKZA. There was a PKZMA made specifically for Massachusetts. Just a twisted thought...but what if the gun is listed incorrectly? Using the list so rigidly would then suggest all AO 1911s are here illegally? (Just hypothesizing)

halifax
10-04-2010, 9:03 AM
I haven't heard back from Kahr yet but in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=349042) a Calgunner ordered one from Davidsons. The model is the 1911PKZSE according to Davidsons and we all know Davidsons won't ship to CA anything not on the roster. Now I'm really curious.

kemasa
10-04-2010, 10:30 AM
"Using" a C&R FFL with a COE to be exempt from the 1 gun in 30 is not really using the C&R FFL in terms of what it is used for, similar to a FFL getting a discount at some place.

The wording of the law is quite clear in this case. The manufacturer just needs to send a letter with the information in order to get it added, rather than having it tested.

jtmkinsd
10-04-2010, 1:29 PM
I haven't heard back from Kahr yet but in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=349042) a Calgunner ordered one from Davidsons. The model is the 1911PKZSE according to Davidsons and we all know Davidsons won't ship to CA anything not on the roster. Now I'm really curious.

Same thing with bud's gun shop...they're nazis when it comes to shipping to CA...but they'll ship a PKZSE

halifax
10-05-2010, 4:03 PM
OK. Heard back from Kahr via email:

James,

The 1911PKZSE & 1911PKZSEW are the SKU's compliant to CA. Same guns but the "W" indicates wood grips.

Take Care,

Don Roden


Called him also to find out how the CA Roster's description could be so far off. He said he doesn't know. The model submitted to CA was the 1911PKZSE and it passed. AO has never made anything different.

jtmkinsd
10-05-2010, 4:24 PM
Chalk another one up for DOJ...so stupid

kemasa
10-05-2010, 4:34 PM
You might want to call the CA DOJ and see what they have to say. The person who deals with the list seems to be pretty good.