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View Full Version : 300 AAC BLACKOUT New caliber brings 7.62 punch to AR platform


OutlawDon
09-29-2010, 8:32 PM
http://300aacblackout.com/

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/09/29/300-aac-blackout-new-caliber-new-mission/

"Introducing the Advanced Armament Corp. 300 AAC BLACKOUT (300BLK). This system was developed to launch 30 caliber projectiles from the AR platform without a reduction in magazine capacity and compatible with the standard bolt. Full power 123 grain ammunition matches the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm AK, has 37% more energy than 5.56mm M855, and 9% more than 6.8 SPC TAP 110. In fact, from a 9 inch barrel, the 300BLK has more muzzle energy than 5.56mm M855 from a 16 inch barrel. When 300 BLK is used in a 16 inch barrel, it has 23% more energy than 5.56mm M855 from a 16 inch barrel - with much higher-mass projectiles for a more dramatic effect on the target. Or choose subsonic cartridges for optimal use with a sound suppressor - 220 grain Sierra OTM (open-tip match) bullets vastly outperforms a 9mm MP5-SD in penetration and long range accuracy. Due to the high efficiency of the cartridge, less powder is used than 5.56mm, which results in a rifle that is a comfortable to shoot - even with a short barrel."

DESIGN OBJECTIVES

Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform
Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.6239 ballistics
Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package


http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/aac-stick/868W0136-1024-Stick.jpg

tomd1584
09-29-2010, 8:33 PM
Interesting.

Stick takes some AMAZING pictures....

swerv512
09-29-2010, 8:39 PM
I'll keep my .308Win thank you very much...

MrPlink
09-29-2010, 8:56 PM
:::scratches head::: why do I want to match 762x39 when I can just buy 762x39? Unless this is cheaper. . . .

gotshotgun?
09-29-2010, 9:03 PM
the above point is a good one.

We Are Apocalypse
09-29-2010, 9:06 PM
:::scratches head::: why do I want to match 762x39 when I can just buy 762x39? Unless this is cheaper. . . .

From what I read in the description, there will be no change required to any current M16/M4 rifles or magazines since it can use a GI mag and keep the same capacity and uses the standard bolt.

Edit, guess this is a whole upper. The biggest deal is the ability to use STANAG magazines.

pyro3k2
09-29-2010, 9:39 PM
Does anyone one else notice a pattern here, with 90% of the new rifle designs
1. Introduce a Piston to the AR platform
2. Increase preformance within 200yards
3. Side charging capabilities
4. shorter barrel
5. 7.62x35...might as well be x39

THEY ARE JUST ****ING COPING THE AK! Last time I check we had the industrial power and might just to ****ing make a new rifle. Might as well just put wood furniture on the m4 and call it a day.

pyro3k2
09-29-2010, 9:41 PM
ar-10's in .243 It can be done and for not a lot of money, would solve more issues than people would give it credit for.

swerv512
09-29-2010, 9:43 PM
i think they sell them in 260rem too!

pyro3k2
09-29-2010, 9:44 PM
i think they sell them in 260rem too!

another great option for recoil managment

joelogic
09-29-2010, 9:48 PM
Sounds like they are rehashing the 300 whisper.
http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

I think AR15Barrels makes a 300 whisper barrel. Its a necked up .223 case.
At least thats how I take it. (Clue was retains mag capacity)
http://300aacblackout.com/images/300BLK-556Pic.jpg

Bug Splat
09-29-2010, 10:03 PM
Sounds like they are rehashing the 300 whisper.
http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

I think AR15Barrels makes a 300 whisper barrel. Its a necked up .223 case.
At least thats how I take it. (Clue was retains mag capacity)
http://300aacblackout.com/images/300BLK-556Pic.jpg

That also jumped out at me. I knew a guy who has a 300whisper. Made his own cases for it. It was neat but not better than whats out there. More of an "I can, therefor I will" type round.

I like the idea of a 30cal in AR-15/m16 frame but again, whats the cost difference of the ammo. 7.62x39 is dirt cheap and offers the same performance. Accuracy might not be as good but who needs great accuracy at 200 yards? If you need something more accurate there are a truck load of better rounds wit more power and little kick.

drclark
09-29-2010, 10:13 PM
Now if you could get some sort of new propellant that could get you .308 ballistics in a package that size, then I am interested. Maybe some sort of two stage deal with a low pressure initial charge that gets the bullet sufficiently down the barrel expanding the volume of the combustion chamber (bolt face to base of bullet) that the high power secondary charge could propel a 160ish grain bullet to 2500 fps without ramping pressure up to dangerous levels.

joelogic
09-29-2010, 10:26 PM
I think the point is a subsonic 30 cal suppressed gun with good ballistics. I think 300 whisper reloads would compete with 7.62x39 factory in price. 150gr 30cal bullets are about $140 per case.

Stickgunner
09-30-2010, 1:56 PM
:::scratches head::: why do I want to match 762x39 when I can just buy 762x39? Unless this is cheaper. . . .

If you are shooting 7.62x39 through your existing AR using an AR BCG and standard USGI/ PMAGs, you won't have any interest in this. If you are using an AK, this might not have any interest for you either.

There is a 2 part market for this, one is LE/ MIL, and the other is the civilian shooter. In the market of the civilian shooter, I think hunters will have the most interest as .30 cal is allowed for hunting in most states.

All that is needed with this caliber is a new barrel, and for those of us who build or help friends build (or work on department weapons), you already know how simple that is. Your magazines work, and your supply of parts that you have on hand continue to work as well. New barrel, thats it.

The LE/ MIL side sees this as a flexible platform that is able to serve different missions by use of different ammunition packages. The subsonic loads are capable of MP5 replacement, which is a blessing for those teams that have to buy equipment and ammunition for both. The standard and OTM loads replace the 5.56 duty/ issue ammo.

Whats the difference between this and 300 Whisper? One of the main things is the level of support. 300 AAC BLK is coming with the full support of the Freedom group, which means large scale manufacturing capability for weapons, barrels, ammunition, suppressors, and accessories.

My personal belief is that this package was developed for a larger goal, and that it will also work nicely with the civilian market. With military carbine trials coming up, and Remington handling the serious end of ACR R&D, I would expect to see some interesting offerings in the next year or two.

SAAMI approval is expected shortly IIRC, which should be another plus.

Stickgunner
09-30-2010, 2:02 PM
From what I read in the description, there will be no change required to any current M16/M4 rifles or magazines since it can use a GI mag and keep the same capacity and uses the standard bolt.




You were correct, the only thing needing to be changed is the barrel. All other M4 components work that are already in inventory. For LE/ MIL, or for people like me, that is great news. I have little interest in new calibers that require swapping everything, mainly because I like the modular concept in components.

It sounds like all of the barrel will be available alone, or as a complete upper.

Stickgunner
09-30-2010, 2:02 PM
Interesting.

Stick takes some AMAZING pictures....



Thank you, I'm glad you like them.

killshot44
09-30-2010, 2:08 PM
My personal belief is that this package was developed for a larger goal, and that it will also work nicely with the civilian market. With military carbine trials coming up, and Remington handling the serious end of ACR R&D, I would expect to see some interesting offerings in the next year or two.

That's what the folks behind the SCAR thought, too. :o

And they weren't even trying to sell a new caliber.

Stickgunner
09-30-2010, 2:39 PM
That's what the folks behind the SCAR thought, too. :o

And they weren't even trying to sell a new caliber.



I thought FN was pushing the SCAR-L and SCAR-H as complete weapon replacements, and not as something like this. You must have different intel than I do.

Table Rock Arms
09-30-2010, 3:07 PM
This has 300 whisper written all over it. If it takes off that would be great. We'll see.

drunktank
09-30-2010, 3:18 PM
I don't really favor this round one way or another, but definitely wanted to say Stickgunner, you are by far the best photographer i've seen on the internet regarding firearms and then some. And I've seen my fair share of photography and portfolios!

yellowfin
09-30-2010, 3:56 PM
From what I understand, the Whisper was a .221 Fireball which is a shortened .223. So it's essentially bringing it right back to where it started. Meanwhile there is or was the .30 RAR that is or was going for the hunting market as well. How does that compare?

a1fabweld
09-30-2010, 4:39 PM
I'll keep my .308Win thank you very much...

Wurd up!

KCDS
09-30-2010, 5:19 PM
how's that compare to .30 Remington AR?

killshot44
09-30-2010, 5:49 PM
how's that compare to .30 Remington AR?

Has anyone ever seen an AR chambered in .30AR? I just wish the Grendel would get some love.

yellowfin
09-30-2010, 6:23 PM
Grendel is still out there, but they made a huge mistake of making it proprietary. 6.8 SPC seems to be doing well.

Toolbox X
09-30-2010, 9:08 PM
I think many of you do not understand or appreciate what has been done here. It is fantastically amazing! Those of you who understand the limitations of the AR-15 bolt, magazine and magwell, and understand short barrel ballistics and suppressors, I'm sure you are as impressed as I am. It's such a shame SBR's and suppressors are not allowed here. I would pay handsomely for one of these.

pyro3k2
09-30-2010, 9:25 PM
I think many of you do not understand or appreciate what has been done here. It is fantastically amazing! Those of you who understand the limitations of the AR-15 bolt, magazine and magwell, and understand short barrel ballistics and suppressors, I'm sure you are as impressed as I am. It's such a shame SBR's and suppressors are not allowed here. I would pay handsomely for one of these.

(in a very friendly and interested tone) Please go into some more detail, maybe I missed the point completely on this round.

Table Rock Arms
09-30-2010, 9:41 PM
I think many of you do not understand or appreciate what has been done here. It is fantastically amazing! Those of you who understand the limitations of the AR-15 bolt, magazine and magwell, and understand short barrel ballistics and suppressors, I'm sure you are as impressed as I am. It's such a shame SBR's and suppressors are not allowed here. I would pay handsomely for one of these.

I understand it and appreciate it. In fact if it really is a go then I will probably get one. However I understood it and appreciated when it was the .300 whisper also.

The 300 whisper is a wildcat so there are no real standards as far as cartridge and chamber dimensions or anything else for that matter. What these guys have done is developed a set up and loads that will allow it to cycle and AR weather you are shooting heavy sub-sonic bullets or lighter supersonic bullets. In fact they guy who is heading this up claims that the 300 AAC BLK is compatible with two .300 whisper reamers that he has seen drawings for.

I am not trying to undermine this project at all, it is great. I was just making the point in my previous post that it is not like these guys came up with this brilliant idea out of thin air one day.

Ryan

xibunkrlilkidsx
09-30-2010, 9:43 PM
wonder what they are looking at for drop and muzzle energy at longer ranges like 300yds. could be a decent round for hunting smaller deer maybe pigs.

Table Rock Arms
09-30-2010, 9:47 PM
One of the things that is fantastic about this round is that it uses the same bolt as 5.56. Especially with people trying to make these modular rifles where you can just switch the barrel and load a different ammo into your mag and go. To me it is kind of pointless to be running around with a modular rifle that in order to switch to another caliber you have to swap the bolt and carry different magazines and all that.

Ryan

Toolbox X
09-30-2010, 10:08 PM
I agree, this looks like a better or more refined version of the .300 Whisper. They didn't invent the wheel here, but it looks like they may have done wonders for making it better.

Here is a quick lesson on suppressors:
There are two primary sources of loud noise when you shoot a rifle. The first and loudest is the sound produced by the burning of the propellant exiting the muzzle. The second is the loud crack the bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier. Shooting unsuppressed you wouldn't notice this.

When you suppress a rifle or pistol shooting supersonic ammo you do nothing to eliminate the supersonic crack. Enter subsonic ammunition. This ammo is slower which means at the same projectile weight you will get nowhere near the power of a supersonic round. Basic physics. Increasing the weight of the bullet will increase the power. The ideal round for very quiet yet extremely powerful suppressed shooting would be the heaviest bullet possible going just under supersonic speed.

Enter the .300 Whisper / 300 AAC. Super heavy bullet going just under supersonic. And they did this using a standard AR lower, upper, magwell, magazine, and bolt carrier group. Absolutely freaking amazing!!! They even made a supersonic round for unsuppressed use that is more effective than 5.56. On top of that, the performance using a 9" barrel is outstanding. 5.56 performance from super short barrels is abysmal.

I hope that helps a little. Firearm suppression if a complicated subject. It takes a lot of time and research to get a firm understanding of it.

Table Rock Arms
09-30-2010, 10:20 PM
Another thing that is great about this round as well as the 300 whisper is that with fairly simple equipment you can make brass from 556/223 brass. This should make reloading pretty affordable. Now, the original 300 whisper brass was necked up from .221 fireball brass ans there are reports that you should not use 223 brass that has been necked down in certain 300 whisper chambers because of the case thickness. It remains to be seen the exact dimensions of the 300 AAC Blackout, but you would think that the guys at AAC realize that the easier it is for people to get supplies to shoot then they are gonna sell more product. time will tell.

Ryan

Dhena81
10-01-2010, 1:02 AM
Time to get an LMT MRP then.

Twinsen
10-01-2010, 4:56 AM
7.62x39 is crap in an AR-15 due to incompatible magwells and weak bolts.

This cartridge is meant to give 7.62x39mm performance using .308 bullets instead of .311 and also able to be loaded subsonic. The twist rate is tight for 220 and 240 grain projectiles.

You use standard AR-15 everything except the barrel. And yeah, I mean everything. Yes, even that.

Read about it before showing how little you know about guns.

Google ".300 whisper", this is a similar round that is a bit shorter for more reliable feeding and is an attempt to bring a royalty free AR-15 .30 caliber round to the masses.

Twinsen
10-01-2010, 5:02 AM
Does anyone one else notice a pattern here, with 90% of the new rifle designs
1. Introduce a Piston to the AR platform Doesn't apply here
2. Increase preformance within 200yards Doesn't apply here, this is increasing performance beyond 100 yards in the areas of power, frontal area, bullet weight, noise, and flash
3. Side charging capabilities Doesn't apply here
4. shorter barrel Well yeah, this isn't some dirty powdered 5.56NATO bull that wants a 24" barrel
5. 7.62x35...might as well be x39 Ridiculous statement

THEY ARE JUST ****ING COPING THE AK! Last time I check we had the industrial power and might just to ****ing make a new rifle. Might as well just put wood furniture on the m4 and call it a day.

...No. BTW nobody is doing AK gas system in their ARs. The closest I've seen is extended gas key. They're doing short stroke. And many are doing monolithic uppers, which is headed in the opposite direction as the AK and possibly the most important of the new ideas.

Twinsen
10-01-2010, 5:08 AM
wonder what they are looking at for drop and muzzle energy at longer ranges like 300yds. could be a decent round for hunting smaller deer maybe pigs.

Well, figure you can load anything from 100gr-ish to 240gr bullets, yeah! It's .308 diameter so you got your soft points and hollow points and all that good fun. I'm sure I'll be getting my hands on copper plated .308 at 200gr or so. Sure it'll have a bit less accuracy to it, but at $0.09 a round I'd be happy loading this over 9mm. And subsonic sure ain't flat shooting, and that's what I'd be doing with bullets that heavy. But I'm pretty sure it's hotter than .30-30, so it's a real good supershort action round.

I wish that the .338 subsonic rounds were affordable and had a better choice of heads. If there were .338 heads out there, I'd do .338. But there really aren't, so it's this round here. Should be great.

cope113
10-01-2010, 8:54 AM
Isn't this pretty close to the .30 Remington AR?

NeoWeird
10-01-2010, 3:48 PM
The 300 whisper is a wildcat so there are no real standards as far as cartridge and chamber dimensions or anything else for that matter.

Wrong, but not by much.

The .300 Whisper has VERY specific dimenions, loads, etc. There in is the problem though. The .300 Whisper is controlled completely by SDK Industries to the point that people aren't even allowed to make reamers for it without permission and paying royalties - it's design is SDK's intellectual property and it will stay that way for quite some time. Enter things like the .300 Fireball and .300-221 which are both attempts to make generic clones of the .300 Whisper. Problem is you are either dropping serious money on the real deal or doing a Mickey Mouse cluster **** of a piece together to get one at a decent price.


...is an attempt to bring a royalty free AR-15 .30 caliber round to the masses.

And there it is folks. THIS is what makes the AAC Blackout a great announement. The performance has been there for near 20 years, and now you have a company with the savy and the collateral backing to make it a standardized cartridge.

You'll get all the same performance as the .300 Whisper, which is a GREAT cartridge, but without having to find parts that work or ask pretty please and pay a hefty premium from the manufacturer. Alexander Arms made those mistakes early on and their firearms hurt. This is just like that, except this time around a different company came along and has the incentive to invite Hornady, Lee, RCBS, CCI, etc along for the ride.

Rukus
10-01-2010, 5:14 PM
The performance has been there for near 20 years, and now you have a company with the savy and the collateral backing to make it a standardized cartridge.

This is just like that, except this time around a different company came along and has the incentive to invite Hornady, Lee, RCBS, CCI, etc along for the ride.

Agreed. If you are not aware of the companies The Freedom Group entail, look them up. This looks to be a promising venture into "wildcat" territory.

I was seriously considering a .338 spectre, but I might just hold off on that to see how well this plays out.

supersonic
10-01-2010, 5:53 PM
:::scratches head::: why do I want to match 762x39 when I can just buy 762x39? Unless this is cheaper. . . .

Exactly! And both rounds are virtually the same as the 300 Whisper in similar bullet weight(s). Actually, the JDJ ammo outperforms the "Blackout." Waste of time, IMO. The name is hilarious, though!

EDIT: I didn't realize the "complications" with the Whisper as far as standardization. THAT alone makes this a possible winner. And yeah, Grant, I think like you do when it comes to the lust for "short & silent.";)

vintagearms
10-01-2010, 6:43 PM
THIS. I can appreciate this round and will be more interested once the ammo manufacturers jump on board in droves.



I agree, this looks like a better or more refined version of the .300 Whisper. They didn't invent the wheel here, but it looks like they may have done wonders for making it better.

Here is a quick lesson on suppressors:
There are two primary sources of loud noise when you shoot a rifle. The first and loudest is the sound produced by the burning of the propellant exiting the muzzle. The second is the loud crack the bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier. Shooting unsuppressed you wouldn't notice this.

When you suppress a rifle or pistol shooting supersonic ammo you do nothing to eliminate the supersonic crack. Enter subsonic ammunition. This ammo is slower which means at the same projectile weight you will get nowhere near the power of a supersonic round. Basic physics. Increasing the weight of the bullet will increase the power. The ideal round for very quiet yet extremely powerful suppressed shooting would be the heaviest bullet possible going just under supersonic speed.

Enter the .300 Whisper / 300 AAC. Super heavy bullet going just under supersonic. And they did this using a standard AR lower, upper, magwell, magazine, and bolt carrier group. Absolutely freaking amazing!!! They even made a supersonic round for unsuppressed use that is more effective than 5.56. On top of that, the performance using a 9" barrel is outstanding. 5.56 performance from super short barrels is abysmal.

I hope that helps a little. Firearm suppression if a complicated subject. It takes a lot of time and research to get a firm understanding of it.

pyro3k2
10-01-2010, 7:52 PM
...No. BTW nobody is doing AK gas system in their ARs. The closest I've seen is extended gas key. They're doing short stroke. And many are doing monolithic uppers, which is headed in the opposite direction as the AK and possibly the most important of the new ideas.

ok explain the SCAR and ACR then

Fjold
10-01-2010, 8:39 PM
With a 100 yard zero

The 155 grain load has 30+" of drop at 300 yards and 66.9" of drop at 400 yards.
The M855 has 12" of drop at 300 yards and 28.9" of drop at 400 yards.

Trajectory sucks.

aaronraby1
10-01-2010, 8:41 PM
im still not convinced...

ill keep my 300 win and 338 lapua.

Twinsen
10-02-2010, 9:23 PM
ok explain the SCAR and ACR then

I already did. They're short stroke, not at all related to an AK gas system.

Twinsen
10-02-2010, 9:27 PM
Exactly! And both rounds are virtually the same as the 300 Whisper in similar bullet weight(s). Actually, the JDJ ammo outperforms the "Blackout." Waste of time, IMO. The name is hilarious, though!

EDIT: I didn't realize the "complications" with the Whisper as far as standardization. THAT alone makes this a possible winner. And yeah, Grant, I think like you do when it comes to the lust for "short & silent.";)

7.62x39mm is too tapered for reliable use in an AR-15 and the rim is too large. Their ballistics may be similar, but the cartridge design of the .300 AAC Blackout is superior. Not saying you don't know that, but there's more to it than just ballistics.

Twinsen
10-02-2010, 9:32 PM
With a 100 yard zero

The 155 grain load has 30+" of drop at 300 yards and 66.9" of drop at 400 yards.
The M855 has 12" of drop at 300 yards and 28.9" of drop at 400 yards.

Trajectory sucks.

But the round wasn't designed for shooting chipmunks, so that isn't that big of an issue. In fact, the point of the cartridge is the exact opposite of flat shooting varmint killing.


Really not understanding the hate for the bullet.

No, it isn't 7.62x39, it's a round that works well in AR-15's and can be reloaded with a wide variety of bullets, both of which 7.62x39 cannot say. 7.62x39 is also more expensive.
No, it isn't .308, it's a round that works well in AR-15's, so the power cannot be as good with modern steels and propellants.
No, it isn't .17 Remington, it's designed to be heavy and subsonic or as light as 100gr and have 7.62x39mm performance. Not light and useless on anything but varmints.
No, it isn't .30-30 or .30 carbine, it's more reliable and more powerful than both.

Also it seems it isn't .300 Whisper either, it's a bit shorter mainly for more reliable feeding. Which is... very important. It's also standardized, unlike the other .30 AR-15 subsonic calibers. It has an OAL, which some do. It also has standardized brass dimensions, which is unique and important. Everybody's .300 Whisper chamber is different. If you think that's no big deal.... wow.

Toolbox X
10-02-2010, 9:49 PM
With a 100 yard zero

The 155 grain load has 30+" of drop at 300 yards and 66.9" of drop at 400 yards.
The M855 has 12" of drop at 300 yards and 28.9" of drop at 400 yards.

Trajectory sucks.

The 300 Blackout is designed to be an amazing subsonic round used with a suppressor. Why in the world are you concerned with long range bullet drop? That's not at all what it is designed for. That' like saying you aren't impressed with the ability of a dragsters to make high speed turns.

Table Rock Arms
10-02-2010, 10:03 PM
But the round wasn't designed for shooting chipmunks, so that isn't that big of an issue. In fact, the point of the cartridge is the exact opposite of flat shooting varmint killing.


Really not understanding the hate for the bullet.

No, it isn't 7.62x39, it's a round that works well in AR-15's and can be reloaded with a wide variety of bullets, both of which 7.62x39 cannot say. 7.62x39 is also more expensive.
No, it isn't .308, it's a round that works well in AR-15's, so the power cannot be as good with modern steels and propellants.
No, it isn't .17 Remington, it's designed to be heavy and subsonic or as light as 100gr and have 7.62x39mm performance. Not light and useless on anything but varmints.
No, it isn't .30-30 or .30 carbine, it's more reliable and more powerful than both.

Also it seems it isn't .300 Whisper either, it's a bit shorter mainly for more reliable feeding. Which is... very important. It's also standardized, unlike the other .30 AR-15 subsonic calibers. It has an OAL, which some do. It also has standardized brass dimensions, which is unique and important. Everybody's .300 Whisper chamber is different. If you think that's no big deal.... wow.

It actually seems as though it is. Here is a link to a thread on silencertests.com that gives some info. If you scroll down and find the posts from jasonAAC and silencertalk These are the guys working on the project, so they would know best.

http://www.silencertests.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62883&sid=19aa7652d5947ceaeda4bad70ff9d53a

Twinsen
10-02-2010, 11:36 PM
It actually seems as though it is. Here is a link to a thread on silencertests.com that gives some info. If you scroll down and find the posts from jasonAAC and silencertalk These are the guys working on the project, so they would know best.

http://www.silencertests.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62883&sid=19aa7652d5947ceaeda4bad70ff9d53a

On that link you just sent me it says that .300BLK has a shorter OAL than .300 Whisper. That's why they're different cartridges.

Table Rock Arms
10-03-2010, 8:06 AM
On that link you just sent me it says that .300BLK has a shorter OAL than .300 Whisper. That's why they're different cartridges.

OAL would vary depending on what loads are being used. The heavy sub-sonic load would be longer like the 300 whisper. Both guys did not say it outright, but they basically said they are compatible with each other.

supersonic
10-03-2010, 10:06 AM
The 300 Blackout is designed to be an amazing subsonic round used with a suppressor. Why in the world are you concerned with long range bullet drop? That's not at all what it is designed for. That' like saying you aren't impressed with the ability of a dragsters to make high speed turns.

I don't know, Big G, but I'm of the opinion that ANY car with a 25-ft wheelbase should be able to turn on a dime like it is on rails. But that's just me.:p

pyro3k2
10-03-2010, 10:43 AM
I already did. They're short stroke, not at all related to an AK gas system.

OK, so the gas system is slightly different how about the rest of the rifle?

But the round wasn't designed for shooting chipmunks, so that isn't that big of an issue. In fact, the point of the cartridge is the exact opposite of flat shooting varmint killing.


Really not understanding the hate for the bullet.

No, it isn't 7.62x39, it's a round that works well in AR-15's and can be reloaded with a wide variety of bullets, both of which 7.62x39 cannot say. 7.62x39 is also more expensive.
No, it isn't .308, it's a round that works well in AR-10's, so the power cannot be as good with modern steels and propellants.
No, it isn't .17 Remington, it's designed to be heavy and subsonic or as light as 100gr and have 7.62x39mm performance. Not light and useless on anything but varmints.
No, it isn't .30-30 or .30 carbine, it's more reliable and more powerful than both.

Also it seems it isn't .300 Whisper either, it's a bit shorter mainly for more reliable feeding. Which is... very important. It's also standardized, unlike the other .30 AR-15 subsonic calibers. It has an OAL, which some do. It also has standardized brass dimensions, which is unique and important. Everybody's .300 Whisper chamber is different. If you think that's no big deal.... wow.

Were you refering to just the sub-sonic 7.62x39 or the entire cartriage in general?

goodlookin1
10-04-2010, 8:13 AM
If the point of this cartridge is to match the 7.62x39's performance, be able to use an SBR suppressed for practically zero sound, then you have a problem: In order to suppress the cartridge subsonic, you must use a bullet weight to slow it down enough to go below the sound barrier. The main issue with this, outside of bullet expansion and lack of hydrostatic shock (which is an issue with any subsonic ammo), is that you now have to have a barrel with a sufficient twist rate to stabilize the heavier (longer) bullet. If you dont, then your accuracy will suffer immensely. So the way I see it, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either:

1) You plan on suppressing it, SBR or not, and buy a barrel with a fast twist rate to stabilize the longer and heavier bullets so you can use your subsonic ammo.

2) You dont suppress it and buy a barrel that will only stabilize the shorter and lighter bullets for supersonic ammo, which should give you performance near or equal to that of the 7.62x39 cartridge.

So unless you have two barrels/two uppers for each purpose, it doesnt seem that you can have it both ways. I dont see this cartridge being the end-all/be-all for the AR-15 platform, and hopefully it is not advertised as such.

Furthermore, at the speeds the supersonic and especially subsonic .300 AAC Blackout round is traveling, the hydrostatic shock will be marginalized or non-existent and will most likely just punch a slightly larger hole, vs a smaller (or rather faster) round that will create the hydrostatic shock needed to incapacitate the target. The extra energy you get from the 7.62 will largely be negated by the sharp spitzer point vs a blunt nosed bullet: It will penetrate much further but not have the speed to tear the tissue up. About the only hope you have is for the bullet to tumble for a greater wound cavity. I have read that the .300 Whisper is about on par with a .45 ACP when using subsonic ammo.....

This problem is not exclusive to the .300 AAC Blackout....this applies to many of the large caliber/small cartridge rounds. Dont get me wrong...I love seeing how modular the AR-15 can be, but i've never quite understood the draw of turning your rifle into something not much more powerful than a handgun. If going subsonic, why not just use a suppressed .45 ACP? It would be a lot cheaper.


Then again, maybe all this is just me being the pessimist that I am :o I guess overall for me, I cannot foresee many situations where I would need (or rather have) a suppressed .300 AAC Blackout over other options in the same platform.

DannyInSoCal
10-04-2010, 9:54 AM
"9% more than 6.8 SPC TAP 110"

Seems like they should compare it to the SPCII 1/11 - Not the SPC from two years ago...

Fjold
10-04-2010, 10:59 AM
The 300 Blackout is designed to be an amazing subsonic round used with a suppressor. Why in the world are you concerned with long range bullet drop? That's not at all what it is designed for. That' like saying you aren't impressed with the ability of a dragsters to make high speed turns.

If you were using it as a primary weapon and someone down the street starts shooting at you, you'd like to be able to shoot back.

Stickgunner
10-04-2010, 11:53 AM
If you were using it as a primary weapon and someone down the street starts shooting at you, you'd like to be able to shoot back.


If you want to make an argument that has merit, throw out the down the street line of thought, and comment about 600 yard engagements in Afghanistan. In that case you have solid ground. If you talk about fighting more like Iraq, its less of a concern. In city fighting is not a problem for a round like this.

If you think towards deer hunting within a couple hundred yards, Law Enforcement, or similar work, this caliber has a lot of merit. For people who are locked up on one caliber doing everything, get out of that mindset and think back to WWII, you have probably heard of it. You've probably also heard about the multiple weapons that were used, to include the M1, M1 Carbine, and Thompsons.

NeoWeird
10-06-2010, 6:01 PM
It's also good to point out that a faster twist rate will still stablize the lighter rounds. You won't NEED two barrels/uppers; same is true for the .300 Whisper. The funny thing is if someone said "Hey guys, the USMC are issuing 9mm uppers for house clearing" probably no one would bat an eye outside of the 'can't wait till they hit surplus' crowd. But instead you have a cartridge reducing proprietary parts to a minimum delivering more energy on target with better suppression and less training and you have guys jumping on it's back because it can't go from house clearing to long range sniping in two seconds.

I also can't say from knowledge because I'm not an expert, but I've read that hydrostatic shock has less impact on pistol rounds in general anyways (as you said, it's an issue with ALL low velocity bullets making them incapable to really open a wound channel and displace fluid with an adaquetly damaging wave impulse). So it's not like this cartridge would NOT be able to do the round of most entry type SBRs, it would actually do it better than most entry SBRs - it's just all those entry type weapons will have this common short coming. As said above, the .300 Whisper carries around .45 ACP power (the Wiki page on .300 Whisper actually shows their lighter grain loadings having 2.5x the energy of a .45 ACP - on par with most mid range .223 loadings - but whatever, we'll stick with the subsonic stuff to keep it fair); that should be a good thing seeing as how most people debate over the need for something larger than 9mm when it comes to handguns. They brought the .45 power with better than 9mm penetration and better ability to penetrate soft armor - sounds like good all around. Give bullet manufactureres some time to develop some bullets that expand at lower velocities for this cartridge (there hasn't been much demand in the market for sub-sonic .308 bullets) and you'll have a great performing cartridge.

They're not trying to replace a military cartridge or small arm - they're trying to supplement it; Just like Noveske with the Leonidas project. If you ask me, they built on an already great cartridge and have the ability to really pull out it's potential. Sounds good all around to me.

Toolbox X
10-06-2010, 6:12 PM
Hydrostatic shock isn't real.

Twinsen
10-09-2010, 1:11 AM
.300 BLK could be used to shoot down a street. You don't need varmint cartridges to fire over 100 yards or some stupid thing. However, a short barreled .300 BLK will outperform a short barreled 5.56x35mm. So there's more to it than just loading subsonic. Load up some 100gr rounds and it's a solid performer with a little 9" barrel. Unlike 5.56x45mm which out of a 9" barrel has an effective range of what, 100 yards? And instead of being quiet and worthless and it's outrageously annoying loud and useless. If we're going to be using rifles that have the ability to be used in a building, 5.56x45 is junk for the task once you get outside.


OK, so the gas system is slightly different how about the rest of the rifle?



Were you refering to just the sub-sonic 7.62x39 or the entire cartriage in general?

I'm referring to reloading, because .308 is easier and cheaper than .311. Also the brass is standardized, instead of being either large primer or small primer pocket like the 7.62x39mm on the market.

There's nothing about the AK-47 that people are copying with the new rifles. The only thing similar is they're going with larger diameter bullets, so that is similar. They're going heavy barrel still, unlike AK's. They're going monolithic uppers, which isn't AK-47. They're going composite and aluminum, which isn't AK-47. They're going short stroke gas or extended gas key direct impingement, which isn't AK-47. To me they look like modernized FAL designs with FAL controls and intermediate cartridges. So whatever that intermediate FAL was called. No not the FNC, the other one.

And the round is for AR-15's, I don't know why you edited my post to AR-10. I was explaining the roles that .300 BLK can fill, not the roles .308 can fill.

Twinsen
10-09-2010, 1:15 AM
If you were using it as a primary weapon and someone down the street starts shooting at you, you'd like to be able to shoot back.

And a comparibly sized 5.56x45mm AR-15 isn't going to do that and .300 BLK will.

OHW
10-09-2010, 11:34 AM
That's what the folks behind the SCAR thought, too. :o

And they weren't even trying to sell a new caliber.

The end user is looking at a new caliber with interest. Since these mags hold more and ammo weighs less than 6.8spc it shold get a shot in the competition.

The 30 caliber round is highly refined. The 300 BLK is using off the shelf components and less resources than other main offerings. Lots less powder and brass than 308 or 6.8. This is a huge plus in our tight budget future.

tomd1584
10-09-2010, 11:35 AM
if the ammo can be manufactured and sold at a decent price, i think it sounds like a great idea. Even better if someone like Hornady can produce a steel cased training round on the cheap.
would make for a great little SBR.

OHW
10-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Enter the .300 Whisper / 300 AAC. Super heavy bullet going just under supersonic. And they did this using a standard AR lower, upper, magwell, magazine, and bolt carrier group. Absolutely freaking amazing!!! They even made a supersonic round for unsuppressed use that is more effective than 5.56. On top of that, the performance using a 9" barrel is outstanding. 5.56 performance from super short barrels is abysmal.

.

The off the shelf compents using less powder,while getting better stopping power than 5.56 is great also. Less $$$ wasted in powder and R&D of the bullets or suppressors to be used. All good and budget conscience.

Taking existing modular barrel systems , all one would have to carry to switch from a 20" 5.56 to a 10" 300ACC entry or suppressed is a barrell,supressor and ammo. For a 2-3lbs weight a soldier could be highly addaptable to situations as they arose in the field.

Twinsen
10-09-2010, 9:48 PM
The off the shelf compents using less powder,while getting better stopping power than 5.56 is great also. Less $$$ wasted in powder and R&D of the bullets or suppressors to be used. All good and budget conscience.

Taking existing modular barrel systems , all one would have to carry to switch from a 20" 5.56 to a 10" 300ACC entry or suppressed is a barrell,supressor and ammo. For a 2-3lbs weight a soldier could be highly addaptable to situations as they arose in the field.

Which is funny because the military loves the swapping uppers idea with the AR-15 family, even though they never take advantage of it.