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dws442
09-27-2010, 12:26 AM
How do I (california resident) legally buy a non-roster handgun at the Reno gun show and bring it back into cal (assuming that the seller is non-cal). This one is really confusing me. I'll know a cal ffl going to the show (I didn't quite understand his explanation).

Things adding the confusion - do ppt's have to take place in Cal., can ffl holders bring the guns across state lines as part of the transfer, its past midnight.

jtmkinsd
09-27-2010, 1:21 AM
How do I (california resident) legally buy a non-roster handgun at the Reno gun show and bring it back into cal (assuming that the seller is non-cal). This one is really confusing me. I'll know a cal ffl going to the show (I didn't quite understand his explanation).

Things adding the confusion - do ppt's have to take place in Cal., can ffl holders bring the guns across state lines as part of the transfer, its past midnight.

You can't legally do this. Non-roster handguns cannot be transported/shipped into CA unless it is for LEO.

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2010, 7:01 AM
You don't. PPTs are only in California by two California residents with ID.

If you have parents or grandparents out of state, they can buy a gun and decide to gift it to you, then it could be sent in and processed as an intrafamilial transfer through a dealer.

Or you can become a cop.

stphnman20
09-27-2010, 7:17 AM
As the other members posted, you can't.. SO don't do it my friend.

kemasa
09-27-2010, 2:05 PM
You can't legally do this. Non-roster handguns cannot be transported/shipped into CA unless it is for LEO.

This is NOT true. Such firearms can only be transferred to a LEO, but a CA FFL can buy and sell firearms out of state.

jtmkinsd
09-27-2010, 5:14 PM
This is NOT true. Such firearms can only be transferred to a LEO, but a CA FFL can buy and sell firearms out of state.

yes...but has nothing to do with what the OP was asking

CSACANNONEER
09-27-2010, 5:49 PM
You can't legally do this. Non-roster handguns cannot be transported/shipped into CA unless it is for LEO.

Please cite your sources. I know that you happen to be wrong but, if you can show me where in the law, it says what you are saying, I'll buy you a beer.

Anyway, the answer to the OP's question is a little more complicated than you seem to think it is. First of all, the simple answer is that he can not buy a non rostered gun from a non California resident via PPT. Obviously, some California (non 01FFLs) have tables at the Reno shows. If the gun in question is not a Ca AW, the OP can meet the seller back in Ca and PPT it at an 01FFL. There are several other ways to legally get a non rostered handgun into California. . First, if the OP is a C&R holder, it's super easy to buy a non rostered C&R handgun while out of state take imediate possession of it. He would just need to declare it after bringing it into the state. Next, as long as it is not a handgun which would be a listed AW under Ca law, it can be converted int o a single action or a single shot target pistol before being sent to a a Ca 01 FFL. These conversions need not be permanent. As long as all AW laws are followed, the conversions can be removed once the gun is in the buyer's possession. As far as getting a friendly LEO to buy a gun just to transfer it to another person goes, that could easily be considered a staw purchase and there is zero reason for anyone to go this route when better options are available.

Oh well, I guess my beer money is obviously safe.:p

kemasa
09-27-2010, 6:12 PM
yes...but has nothing to do with what the OP was asking

Your statement was incorrect and needed to be corrected so that other FFLs do not think that what you were saying was correct. It does not have anything to do with what was asked, but then again, neither did your (false) statement. At least you are admitting your statement was not correct.

dws442
09-27-2010, 7:20 PM
You don't. PPTs are only in California by two California residents with ID.

I haven't seen anything that states a PPT has to take place in California. If you have a Cal seller (and this is not required by the penal codes), a Cal buyer, and a Cal ffl, why can't you complete the sale in Nevada? Also satisfies the Feds.

People moving to Cal can bring in non-roster guns then declare them. Why can't a resident bring in a non-roster gun he owns.

dws442
09-27-2010, 7:26 PM
You can't legally do this. Non-roster handguns cannot be transported/shipped into CA unless it is for LEO.

Not quite, non residents, moving to Cal can bring in their non-rostered guns but have to register them within 60 days.

My question....If you own the gun (legally bought it) and don't intend to sell it, then I would think that you shouldn't fall under the importer laws. You would meet the Fed requirements of using the ffl in the buyers state, you meet the Cal DOJ requirement to use a ffl in a PPT, you have registered the handgun, what am I missing.

jtmkinsd
09-27-2010, 7:36 PM
Your statement was incorrect and needed to be corrected so that other FFLs do not think that what you were saying was correct. It does not have anything to do with what was asked, but then again, neither did your (false) statement. At least you are admitting your statement was not correct.

I've no problem admitting when I'm wrong...which is a LOT more than I can say for some in this forum...I suppose I could write full page responses to simple questions with an infinite number of ifs, supposes, kind ofs and technicallys...but I thought the OP had a pretty straight forward question. Yep there's a number of ways to skirt the roster...finding a convenient FFL to go along is the first in a multitude of problems the OP would face in legally obtaining a non-roster gun...If they want to do all kinds of conversions and "unconversions" and invest the time and money to get what they want...more power to them...but I'll stick to the simple answers.

And as far as you "correcting" my post so other FFLs won't think it's correct...I didn't know we were so impressionable as a group (obviously though you are above that sort of nonsense right?) It's your right to believe you are the final authority on gun law...I'll stick to reading the law and applying it as I see fit...that's my right.

jtmkinsd
09-27-2010, 7:39 PM
Not quite, non residents, moving to Cal can bring in their non-rostered guns but have to register them within 60 days.

My question....If you own the gun (legally bought it) and don't intend to sell it, then I would think that you shouldn't fall under the importer laws. You would meet the Fed requirements of using the ffl in the buyers state, you meet the Cal DOJ requirement to use a ffl in a PPT, you have registered the handgun, what am I missing.

IN YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION YOU ASKED: How do I (california resident) legally buy a non-roster handgun at the Reno gun show and bring it back into cal (assuming that the seller is non-cal). This one is really confusing me. I'll know a cal ffl going to the show (I didn't quite understand his explanation).


NOTHING ABOUT WHAT ARE THE WAYS TO BRING A NON ROSTER GUN INTO CA

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2010, 7:48 PM
I haven't seen anything that states a PPT has to take place in California. If you have a Cal seller (and this is not required by the penal codes), a Cal buyer, and a Cal ffl, why can't you complete the sale in Nevada? Also satisfies the Feds.

People moving to Cal can bring in non-roster guns then declare them. Why can't a resident bring in a non-roster gun he owns.

Because you can only conduct business at your licensed premises.

PC 12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the business shall be conducted only in the buildings designated in the license.
(B) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may take possession of firearms and commence preparation of registers for the sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms at gun shows or events, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, if the gun show or event is not conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall be entitled to conduct business as authorized herein at any gun show or event in the state without regard to the jurisdiction within this state that issued the license pursuant to subdivision (a), provided the person complies with (i) all applicable laws, including, but not limited to, the waiting period specified in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3), and (ii) all applicable local laws, regulations, and fees, if any.
A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall publicly display his or her license issued pursuant to subdivision (a), or a facsimile thereof, at any gun show or event, as specified in this subparagraph.
(C) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may engage in the sale and transfer of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, at events specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078, subject to the prohibitions and restrictions contained in that subdivision.
A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) also may accept delivery of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, outside the building designated in the license, provided the firearm is being donated for the purpose of sale or transfer at an auction or similar event specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078.
(D) The firearm may be delivered to the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm at one of the following places:
(i) The building designated in the license.
(ii) The places specified in subparagraph (B) or (C).
(iii) The place of residence of, the fixed place of business of, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by, the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm.

People moving to Cal can bring in non-roster guns then declare them. Why can't a resident bring in a non-roster gun he owns.Because they cannot import firearms from over statelines without going through an FFL. That is federal law. Also federal law states you cannot purchase firearms out of state if it is a handgun and/or it is against state law. CA State Law says you cannot buy guns out of state and we are also talking about handguns.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

dws442
09-27-2010, 9:21 PM
Thank you tenpercentfirerarms.
Excuse me if I have to summarize in my words......sounds like, if I go to the Reno gun show, I can only buy a non-roster handgun from a Cal seller via PPT with the assistance of a Cal FFL, who may commence preparation of the registration, but whom must complete the registration and transfer at his place of business. Is this correct?

kemasa
09-28-2010, 9:15 AM
And as far as you "correcting" my post so other FFLs won't think it's correct...I didn't know we were so impressionable as a group (obviously though you are above that sort of nonsense right?) It's your right to believe you are the final authority on gun law...I'll stick to reading the law and applying it as I see fit...that's my right.

Nice attack, but it is false. I do not believe that I am the final authority on gun law. Please explain where you got the idea by reading the law that a CA FFL can not receive a non-roster firearm?

To be quite honest, I have seen more FFL respond to your posts saying that you statements were false than for any other.

jtmkinsd
09-28-2010, 11:18 AM
ok...I'll try this one more time...the OP asked "How do I (california resident) legally buy a non-roster handgun at the Reno gun show and bring it back into cal (assuming that the seller is non-cal).

Now, with those set of facts, tell me, is their ANY way he can legally do this? The answer is NO.

Im sorry I didn't preface my statement by saying CA residents cannot ship/receive non roster guns into the state from non residents except in the case of family, or LEO, or if you want to make it a single shot, or it's a C&R, or blah blah blah...like I said, I could write a full page of possibilities...the question was simple, so was the answer, but everyone seems to have to put their 2 cents in on ways around the law...like outlining how he can drive to reno, just happen to find a CA seller of the non roster gun he wants...even more amazingly, find a CA FFL there as well who will do the transfer for him...and bring it back to CA where he can pick it up ten days later...what a load of crap...lol...Why am I gonna drive to another state to do a PPT??? And why is a CA resident going to go out of state to sell his non roster gun when he can get a premium for it in CA??? It's just a ridiculous scenario.

CSACANNONEER
09-28-2010, 11:30 AM
The bottom line is that even if you purchase a firearm from a CA FFL at a gun show in another state, you are a California resident and need to comply with California laws as well s the laws of the other state. As 10% pointed out, that would mean that the Ca FFL would have to sell it to you through a NV (per your example) FFL who would then need to transfer it back to the Ca FFL to DROS, hold for ten days and then deiver to you. As far as rendering a semi auto into a handgun that qualifies for the single shot exemption, it is not hard to do with most pistols. But, like anything else, it would just cost more. As soon as you take possession of it, it would be your gun and you could legally reverse the single shot mods.

EOD Guy
09-29-2010, 9:23 AM
The bottom line is that even if you purchase a firearm from a CA FFL at a gun show in another state, you are a California resident and need to comply with California laws as well s the laws of the other state. As 10% pointed out, that would mean that the Ca FFL would have to sell it to you through a NV (per your example) FFL who would then need to transfer it back to the Ca FFL to DROS, hold for ten days and then deiver to you. As far as rendering a semi auto into a handgun that qualifies for the single shot exemption, it is not hard to do with most pistols. But, like anything else, it would just cost more. As soon as you take possession of it, it would be your gun and you could legally reverse the single shot mods.
California dealers cannot transfer GCA regulated firearms at a gun show in a State in which their licensed premises is not located, even to other licensees. The only exception is for C&R firearms which may only be transferred to other licensees. They can take orders for other firearms, but the firearms must be transferred from their licensed premises.

In other words, a California dealer at a Nevada gun show may only transfer C&R firearms to a licensee. Any other firearms have to be transferred from his shop. I suppose he could also sell antique firearms to unlicensed persons since they are not regulated under GCA 68.