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View Full Version : Whats the Rules about 03 FFL


VeryCoolCat
05-25-2006, 12:54 PM
I'm wondering, I was considering going for it but you need to be 21 to apply for an 03 FFL permit. The depending on where you live you have to notify local pd.

What are the rules about PPT C&R arms, for example have someone receiver a c&r rifle then having them transfer it to you, would it require to go to a local FFL and do a PPT.

Evil Gun
05-25-2006, 1:40 PM
You send a copy to the local sheriffs' office along with the ATF. You need to be 21. You cannot buy a just a receiver. The gun has to be in it's original military configuration. You can sell the guns, but not make a living from buying and selling. You have to keep a bound book recording the transfers. The ATF can come in and inspect that book at any time, along with your storage facility. This is a collector's license only.

ocabj
05-25-2006, 2:37 PM
I'm wondering, I was considering going for it but you need to be 21 to apply for an 03 FFL permit. The depending on where you live you have to notify local pd.

What are the rules about PPT C&R arms, for example have someone receiver a c&r rifle then having them transfer it to you, would it require to go to a local FFL and do a PPT.

If a C&R holder bought a C&R rifle from an out of state dealer, the C&R holder now legally owns the rifle. In the State of CA, if a rifle is 50 years or older, you can transfer it to another person without a 01FFL to conduct the transfer.

As far as a C&R holder buying C&R firearms for the purpose of transferring it to another person upon receipt is not kosher. That's not what the C&R license was intended to be used for. A C&R licensee is granted the privilege of acquiring C&R firearms for the purpose of collecting and not for business.

That's not to say a C&R holder has no right to sell C&R firearms acquired while licensed. But if and when a C&R holder does get audited and the ATF sees numerous acquisitions followed by dispositions for numerous firearms, they will be suspicious.

VeryCoolCat
05-25-2006, 3:24 PM
PPT with rifles over 50 years do not have to be done in front of an 01 FFL or people with 03 FFL to an unliscenced person can transfer without an 01 FFL.

EBWhite
05-25-2006, 7:12 PM
You can also take your CR license, buy 3 of the same gun- sell the other 2 for profit and keep the one. Your answer is- i buy three and pick the best one in the bunch :-)

jmlivingston
05-25-2006, 7:22 PM
The ATF can come in and inspect that book at any time, along with your storage facility. This is a collector's license only.

While the ATF has the right to inspect your book and your firearms, they do not have the right to inspect your storage facility. As well, they have to provide notice for the inspection and said inspection can occur at their offices rather than your residence.

John

finfan
05-26-2006, 7:49 PM
You can also take your CR license, buy 3 of the same gun- sell the other 2 for profit and keep the one. Your answer is- i buy three and pick the best one in the bunch :-)

I would hate to be in your shoes during an audit:eek:

finfan
05-26-2006, 8:00 PM
While the ATF has the right to inspect your book and your firearms, they do not have the right to inspect your storage facility. As well, they have to provide notice for the inspection and said inspection can occur at their offices rather than your residence.

John

Evil Gun is correct. ATF is the FEDS! they can inspect your storage
facility. So keep your nose clean! Don't mess it up for the rest of
us!

icormba
05-26-2006, 8:06 PM
Evil Gun is correct. ATF is the FEDS! they can inspect your storage
facility. So keep your nose clean! Don't mess it up for the rest of
us!

01 FFL YES
03 FFL NO

jmlivingston
05-26-2006, 8:11 PM
Icormba is correct, there is a very distinct difference in the regulation of 01 and 03 FFL's. Only 01's have storage facility requirements, in fact neither a gun safe or gun locker are even required for an 03!

John

finfan
05-26-2006, 8:32 PM
Really? I don't remember reading the ATF "legally" can not inspect
an 03 safe or storage facility in the reference guide. My wole point was to
keep things on the up&up is all. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone
except mr. white.

finfan
05-26-2006, 8:56 PM
Furthermore, if your Mr. White in an audit, I can guarantee they will
be inspecting your "storage facility" :eek:

jmlivingston
05-26-2006, 9:00 PM
Yes, we most definately have to keep our noses clean! As to the "buy 3, sell 2" concept I've heard of others doing it before with no problems. I guess the issues would revolve around how frequently an individual was selling, I seem to recall limits on sales per year but that might have been a CA handgun limit.

The limitiation on inspections are layed out on Section 923(g)(1) paragraphs C and D. In my version (green book titled "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2000) it's on page 21. "C" defines what grounds and how frequently the BATFE may conduct an inspection and "D" gives the collector the right to have the inspection occur at an BATFE office rather than residence.

John

finfan
05-26-2006, 9:22 PM
[QUOTE=jmlivingston]Yes, we most definately have to keep our noses clean! As to the "buy 3, sell 2" concept I've heard of others doing it before with no problems. I guess the issues would revolve around how frequently an individual was selling, I seem to recall limits on sales per year but that might have been a CA handgun limit.

The limitiation on inspections are layed out on Section 923(g)(1) paragraphs C and D. In my version (green book titled "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2000) it's on page 21. "C" defines what grounds and how frequently the BATFE may conduct an inspection and "D" gives the collector the right to have the inspection occur at an BATFE office rather than residence.

John[/QUOTE

Exactly!!!!!!
No limit on sales, but the sales are to "enhance or improve" your
collection. NOT FOR PROFIT that would be an "01".
That was my original beef. If your using an 03 as an 01, all bets are
of and God help you with the FEDS!!!!!!
I tried to merge both posts, but im new bear with me:o

finfan
05-26-2006, 9:24 PM
And my grammar stinks too:(

I'll work on it:D

jmlivingston
05-26-2006, 9:41 PM
Exactly!!!!!!
No limit on sales, but the sales are to "enhance or improve" your
collection. NOT FOR PROFIT that would be an "01".
That was my original beef. If your using an 03 as an 01, all bets are
of and God help you with the FEDS!!!!!!
I tried to merge both posts, but im new bear with me:o

Though I can't believe I'm defending him since he usually gets under my skin, he's probably just fine. As long as he's keeping a portion of what he buys, and what he buys are all the same he'll be okay. (i.e. place an order for 3 Mosin 91/30's, keeps 1 and sells the remaining 2) Now, if he starts making a decent profit on those sales that might change the story....

John

finfan
05-26-2006, 9:50 PM
You can also take your CR license, buy 3 of the same gun- sell the other 2 for profit and keep the one. Your answer is- i buy three and pick the best one in the bunch :-)

Very Cool Cat: When u get your C&R don't do the above.

icormba
05-30-2006, 5:02 PM
Sometimes the whole point of being a "collector" is to one day make a profit on your past acquisitions. The law says you can't engage in the business of selling your arms. Something about making a living out of it or the like requires a 01FFL. Buying 3 rifles and selling 2 for profit? If your doing that in order to make a living... you need to find a job. ;)

Now if your buying LARGE quantities with the sole intent to make money, then you might have some ATF issues.

I, myself, have never sold any of my purchases... I just couldn't bare to do it :)

Turbinator
05-30-2006, 5:15 PM
Just curious, does anyone recall what the original purpose for instituting the 01 FFL licensing might have been? Controlling guns I guess?

Turby

Gunhacker
06-06-2006, 7:18 PM
Just curious, does anyone recall what the original purpose for instituting the 01 FFL licensing might have been? Controlling guns I guess?

Turby

I believe it was prompted by President Kennedy's assassination. Prior to then you could send your $39.95 off to Numrich Arms and get a nice post war Luger... or $61.00 to Herter's for a SSA clone and get it sent to you via REA (Railway Express... the great grand daddy to UPS... yeah, I'm an old fart to know this) or even the US Mail (I think).

The rifle that Oswald used was military surplus purchased through the US mail. From the Warren Commission findings: "The FBI determined that the rifle was distributed from Crescent Firearms Inc, which shipped the rifle with the serial number C2766 to Kleinís Sporting Goods Co. Kleinís Sporting Goods shipped the rifle to a post office box in Dallas Texas"

The new gun laws were intented to regulate sales so no crack pot could do this horrible act again, not prohibit ownership... a very different intent from today's laws, which is to eliminate sales and handguns.