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Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 1:25 PM
What's a good group at 100 yards with standard AR iron sights? In a "prone" position on a bench, I'm shooting about 1"-1.5" at 25 yards, so I'm hoping that will add up to just a few inches at 100 yards.

I just want to know what is considered acceptable for the next time I get out to the outdoor range.

Thanks!

technique
09-26-2010, 1:29 PM
Try another ammo, bro. You should be putting rounds through the same hole at 25yrds with irons. Seriously, I'm not even a bench shooter or "target" type shooter either.

Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 1:47 PM
I guess I should have mentioned that I've been shooting at little 3/4" orange dots from that distance, I IMAGINE that if I could see the target a little better, I might have tighter groups.

Ok, how about this as part of my question: What type/size target should I be using?

swerv512
09-26-2010, 2:56 PM
depends on your ammo, but i'd try 1 MOA as a goal with match ammo out to a couple hundred yards.

Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 3:19 PM
Wow. That doesn't even seem possible with a standard sight setup:confused: I guess I better look into getting contacts.

Does ammo really make that big a difference?

Would it be cheating if I used a narrower front post?

G-forceJunkie
09-26-2010, 3:22 PM
I put a skinnier front post in all my AR's.

Don Nguyen
09-26-2010, 3:33 PM
Where can I get this skinnier front post. I didn't know such things existed, haha.

dwh100
09-26-2010, 3:38 PM
... In a "prone" position on a bench...



I'm trying to picture someone laying down on a shooting bench;)

bomb_on_bus
09-26-2010, 3:38 PM
a good gun and good ammo and a good shooter go along way if your lacking in one or more of the 3 your not going to get as good a result as you would like. find out where your weak spots are and work on it.

And if your not sure about the rifle let someone with more trigger time and better experience shoot your gun to give you an idea of how it shoots. Or if you have some extra cash lying around get a decent lead sled shooting rest and shoot a few groups.

A decent target also can help out and help you get better groupings just by knowing how to read your target and call your shots.

3/4" inch target is pretty small to aim at using irons even for those with good vision.

I always use at least a 6 inch target just for ease of finding the target. Walmart has some good pasties that will stick to wood boards really well and they are pretty cheap too. I cant recall the exact price but less than 10 dollars.

daveyshooter
09-26-2010, 3:42 PM
I bench rest a lot and if you are doing the same, with a good solid foundation, you can expect 0.75" MOA or better.
That's from a 20" 1-9 twist barrel and A2 iron sights.

As others have already told you, try different ammo.
For distance, if your front sight post covers the bulls eye (black circle in the middle of the target) then you have the right distance.
8"dia at 100 yards is standard more or less.

I've seen a lot larger bulls eye targets at some NRA HP matches at 200 yards.

Good luck.

Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 3:50 PM
Awesome. As always, thanks for the responses. Lots of very helpful info.

As for lying on the bench, I guess what I mean is sitting, but with my upper body on the table as if I were prone. No bags or anything.

dwh100, look at KNS Precision for different types of sight posts.

Offthehook
09-26-2010, 4:15 PM
My first time out I couldnt even see the target at 50 yards although I was hitting the target

El Gato
09-26-2010, 4:17 PM
I bench rest a lot and if you are doing the same, with a good solid foundation, you can expect 0.75" MOA or better.
That's from a 20" 1-9 twist barrel and A2 iron sights.

As others have already told you, try different ammo.
For distance, if your front sight post covers the bulls eye (black circle in the middle of the target) then you have the right distance.
8"dia at 100 yards is standard more or less.

I've seen a lot larger bulls eye targets at some NRA HP matches at 200 yards.

Good luck.

+1
except try a 6 o'clock hold on the bull... that will give you a more narrow aiming point...

RugerNo1
09-26-2010, 4:26 PM
+1
except try a 6 o'clock hold on the bull... that will give you a more narrow aiming point...

+ 1 to this. Once I started using a 6 o'clock hold my groups shrank. I found myself wandering when using a center-mass hold. 6 o'clock helps you be much more consistant with your aiming point. However, this hold also is more intended for target shooting, for run-and-gun stuff I would use a center-mass hold.

Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 4:46 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/doghair/IMG_2630.jpg
This is pretty typical of an 80', 10 shot group if I put the dot on a black background. I actually did that with the .22 upper attached, but I don't see it being any different at that distance with the 5.56 upper.
I do use the 6 o'clock hold, otherwise I wouldn't even know what I was shooting at. I can't say if the misses were flyers, because all I really see is a blob.
I guess I'll start by trying larger targets and see how that goes.

If I have the target at 50', which is what that particular paper is for, I have no problems at all.

kendog4570
09-26-2010, 5:09 PM
Where can I get this skinnier front post. I didn't know such things existed, haha.

I make some .050 front sight posts that I sell at the local highpower matches. If you guys are interested, I can post some pictures.
The smaller size appears just like a M1/M14 NM front, and round keeps you from seeing a wider front post with a lot of wind on the rear. They come with a double headed lock screw to make the whole thing tight in the FSB, once you establish your elevation zero. Stock sights will wiggle 2 or 3 MOA.

Don Nguyen
09-26-2010, 6:20 PM
I have troy sights now. Post up some pictures when you get a chance, I'd like to see a comparison :)

I haven't looked at many M1/M14s, so I am not too familiar with their design.

metalliman545
09-26-2010, 9:50 PM
i get 1-1.25 inch groupings actually laying in the prone with body armor(IOTV with plates) and kevlar laying in the sun at 25 meters.

metalliman545
09-26-2010, 9:52 PM
standard m855

xrMike
09-26-2010, 10:28 PM
Ok, how about this as part of my question: What type/size target should I be using?

Like was said above, an 8-inch bulls eye at 100 yards is pretty standard for iron sight shooting (with a 1-inch X ring, 2-inch 10 ring, 4-inch 9 ring, 6-inch 8 ring, and 8-inch 9 ring). I wouldn't bother shooting 25 yards; just practice at 100 since that is your goal, I assume.

depends on your ammo, but i'd try 1 MOA as a goal with match ammo out to a couple hundred yards.

Yeah, if you can hold 1 MOA off a rested position with irons, you're doing pretty good, better than most. A lot of things are required to consistently do that --- good gun, trigger, ammo, rest, fundamental skills, and eyesight. 1 MOA is a good goal to set for irons.

Wow. That doesn't even seem possible with a standard sight setup:confused: I guess I better look into getting contacts.

Does ammo really make that big a difference?

If your eyesight isn't 20/20 or better (corrected or not, it doesn't matter), you'll never shoot well with irons. You can't hit well what you can't see well.

Yeah, ammo is critical. My first year of shooting the AR I never thought I'd do better than 2 MOA. I was using Winchester or Remington commerical ammo and that was the absolute best I could do. Once I started making my own though, my group size dropped in half. It was amazing to me, at the time.

If you can't make your own, Black Hills blue box ammo is a good choice, but it's not cheap and good luck finding it. Think about getting a real basic single stage or turret press setup and for less than $200 you can be making 1 MOA ammo.

I bench rest a lot and if you are doing the same, with a good solid foundation, you can expect 0.75" MOA or better.


.75 is good shooting. Yeah, I'd agree that .75 is getting down there, about the best you can expect to do with irons. I can do 1 MOA pretty consistently, .75 on a good day, and very rarely, a little better.

Also, to OP -- 3 rounds don't qualify as a group. 5 rounds BARELY qualifies as a group, IMO. Personally, I don't count my groups as "the real deal" unless they are 10 rounds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/xrMike/guns/groups/2ndReloads/223SecondReloads-OnTargetSoftware.jpg

That's 10 rounds there, .7 MOA. Shot this a couple years ago and my eyes aren't getting any better with age, so I'd be very surprised and happy if I ever do better than this. But I'll keep on trying. :D

Someday when I get bored with REAL shooting, maybe I'll buy a scope??? :43:

Droppin Deuces
09-26-2010, 11:09 PM
3 rounds? I never shoot only 3 rounds as a group. Now..I may get some groups where only 3 rounds actually hit the target, but never only 3 round groups:p