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View Full Version : So. Cal./OC Gun Store Refusing to Release Handgun


beemaze
09-24-2010, 1:59 PM
I went to a gun store in the OC, which has been open less than a year, to pick up a store-purchased handgun I DROS'd. It was DROS'd under the 30 Day Multiple Purchase Exemption since I have a valid C&R and COE. When I arrived to pick it up after the obligatory 10 day waiting period and before the 30 day DROS "expiration.", the salesperson and manager refused to release the handgun to me, stating that they were not sure the 30 Day Multiple Purchase Exemption was valid. When I asked if they had received a denial from the CA DOJ, they said "no". When I showed them the written statute regarding my exemption, they said they weren't too sure this applied to a modern handgun or curio and relic handgun (although the statute does not distinguish between the two when it comes to the 30 day multiple purchase exemption.) When I asked them to call the CA DOJ, they did so and stated nobody answered and they left a message. The manager basically told me there was nothing that could be done until they get "clarification" from the CA DOJ. I left the store empty handed without the gun I bought, paid in full, and legally DROS'd as far as I'm concerned.

My question is this: What recourse do I have at this point?

ocspeedracer
09-24-2010, 2:06 PM
call the police. stolen firearm. Actually that would likely lead to your gun being confiscated.
In all reality you could have your lawyer call them up and threaten.

safewaysecurity
09-24-2010, 2:11 PM
Don't hate the player hate the game.

BayAreaShooter
09-24-2010, 2:13 PM
I say wait until the next day that they are open and find out when the DOJ is open for calls. Go in and if they give you problem again then have them call the DOJ. If they do the same thing call the DOJ yourself right in front of them and hand them the phone.

Ed_Hazard
09-24-2010, 2:14 PM
Return the gun, demand they refund your DROS fee as they ran the DROS and at the time they accepted the exemption. Then shop elsewhere and out them on the forum so we can riddicule them.:43:

Or you could direct them Calguns so they can educate themselves.

beemaze
09-24-2010, 2:22 PM
Return the gun, demand they refund your DROS fee as they ran the DROS and at the time they accepted the exemption. Then shop elsewhere and out them on the forum so we can riddicule them.:43:

Or you could direct them Calguns so they can educate themselves.

At this point I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, they are not just a gun store, as they sell some sporting goods, archery, fishing & hunting stuff too. They seemed just overly cautious since they've only been around less than a year, and unfortunately ignorant of the law.

If it comes to a head and I don't get my gun, then yes, I will out them here and elsewhere.

I already tried "education" by giving them a copy of CA's Gun laws verbatim and at least they made a copy. They seemed sincere and were apologetic. But I'm just preparing for the worst case scenario.

scoot64
09-24-2010, 2:24 PM
When u prove them wrong ask them how they are going to make good on their f**k up, since you are not happy with the situation.

Colt-45
09-24-2010, 2:27 PM
I agree with the others have them refund your every penny including DROS.

macey109
09-24-2010, 3:27 PM
If it's already been dros'ed they can't refund the money. They're just trying to be cautious...

Their not bad guys over there (I am a decent customer:)). It's frustrating that this was not laid out up front.

I would ask for the owner and cordially explain that you were up front when purchasing the weapon thus it's upsetting/concerning that when it came time to pick it up it was not released, even though there were no problems cited from DOJ. I'd go further and explain how I completely understand his need to be cautious but you'd really appreciate his help in expedtiting the resolution ASAP.

When he resolves it (which I think, and hope, he will) and hands you the weapon- tell him how much you like his nice big new store then tell him how pissed and upset you really were and ask him: How are you going to help me to make sure that I keep coming back to your store and recomend it to my friends? If you were me- how would you feel?(cordial yet stern)



if it goes in the opposite direction: do not loose your cool! I would go down to my local sheriff station and explain the situation to them and ask for their guidance..unless you have any friends who are good lawyers (hiring them gets expensive quickly!!!-)


- my two cents (on a good day worth a penny)

beemaze
09-24-2010, 3:44 PM
Here's the follow up: It's not looking good....

Basically the sales rep from Field Time, yes Field Time Sports and Guns http://www.fieldtimesportsandguns.com/ called me back and said they spoke with CA DOJ, and that the C&R + COE 30 Day Multiple Exemption did not apply to this handgun, since it was not a Curio & Relic. They gave me the name of the technician at CA DOJ and their number that claims this is the case.

Now they want me to re-DROS it and cancel the previous DROS. Unacceptable. I'm calling the DOJ next week in the store and if this is not resolved, then I will obtain a full refund either through them or through my credit card company.

ke6guj
09-24-2010, 3:54 PM
If it's already been dros'ed they can't refund the money.
sure they can. If they decide that they don't feel that the C&R+COE exemption to the 30-day rule doesn't apply to modern handguns, then they should not have DROSed it. Even though the $25 DROS fee is sent to CADOJ, and CADOJ won't return it, that doesn't mean that the shop can't refund the fee out of their own pocket, as a good will gesture for doing the DROS in the first place when they didn't understand the law.

darkest2000
09-24-2010, 3:56 PM
Yet another BS from the DOJ.

beemaze
09-24-2010, 4:09 PM
What's even more pathetic is I have showed the store this:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#23

Which basically contradicts what the "technician" supposedly told them...

jtmkinsd
09-24-2010, 4:21 PM
What's even more pathetic is I have showed the store this:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#23

Which basically contradicts what the "technician" supposedly told them...

What you should do is call DOJ and talk to the person from DOJ who supposedly told them it was a no-go. Explain your situation calmly. If you can get that person to see the error in their ways, cool, ask them to call the store and instruct them to release the firearm. If not, ask to speak to the technicians supervisor, again, calmly.

If after all this you can't get the situation cleared up, any further attempt is futile, as you would invest more time in trying to "fix" the mess than it would take to re-DROS the firearm. You can ask that they re_DROS at no expense to you, as it was their "error" in the first place that got you here. Or you can have the gun shipped to an FFL that understands the law (more expense unfortunately)

OCArmory
09-24-2010, 4:31 PM
If it was not allowed they would have received a 30 day denial. This is why the DOJ needs to make a FAQ book and put something in writing to help guide store owners. Sorry for your experience.
Mike

beemaze
09-24-2010, 5:05 PM
If it was not allowed they would have received a 30 day denial.

That's what I told them.. The DOJ tech told them they would need to cancel the DROS and re-DROS it - utter ignorance and nonsense.

Oceanbob
09-24-2010, 5:34 PM
I emailed the store with a nice explanation. Mwickes (owners wife) will be receiving my courteous email. I think they just are afraid of DOJ problems.

Best solution is get the DOJ on the phone; get it straigtened out; get the Back Number to call again at the store....hand the phone to the owner.....smile.

Bob

Helpful_Cub
09-24-2010, 5:42 PM
I'm kind of confused on why they're even selling guns when they don't understand the laws around them. Surely the store has it's own law firm it can call up and ask.

macey109
09-24-2010, 5:57 PM
sorry to hear about this...we need to all rethink doing any business there going forward...utter BS and incompetancy. I am eatin crow. I agree with Helpful 1000%

dirtyJ
09-24-2010, 10:09 PM
Perfectly fine man, I DROS'd 6 handguns in a 30 day period right after I got my COE. If it doesn't come back denied after 10 days, you're good to go and you get your gun. The store is being pushed around by some flunkie at DOJ who does not know the law, and they need to grow a spine and actually adhere to the letter of the law.

tenpercentfirearms
09-25-2010, 12:05 AM
I think you guys are being overly harsh. If you expect every gun dealer to know all of the gun laws in this state, I expect every customer to know ever gun law in this state. If you come into my shop and ask a stupid question, I am going to take a picture of you, get your name, and post it all over Calguns what a buffoon you are and how you should pay me money for your stupidity.

Calm down. I have never, ever had a guy come in and ask to be 30 day exempt with a C&R FFL and COE in my four years of doing business. I would have to research that if it came up.

The dealer researched it by calling the DOJ and the DOJ said not to do it. This is in no way the dealer's fault. That is what a dealer ought to do.

My question is who told the dealer to run it as 30 day exempt? If it was the customer, then the customer is liable for the $25. The dealer was doing what the customer asked and the DOJ said that won't work. That isn't the dealer's fault.

Sure we know that it is legal, but a new dealer should listen to the DOJ over us. It is a bad thing to happen, but it makes more sense to listen to the people that can shut down your shop and put you out of business or in jail.

If I were you, I would encourage the dealer not to cancel the DROS yet and have them call back and get a second opinion. Hopefully they haven't canceled the DROS yet.

In the end, if the dealer won't play ball, go to a dealer that will. However, I wouldn't hold this against this dealer. When the DOJ tells you to do something, most times you should do it. I've stood up to the man, but I certainly don't fault those that haven't.

aquaelvis
09-25-2010, 4:43 AM
Wes is 100% right on.
Call the DOJ and ask 4 people the same question and you get 6 different answers! The DOJ doesn't even know their own laws.
It is easy to pull out a PC and tell the dealer, "see it is right here" and in most states that will be fine. In CA the guns laws are such a mess that there are exceptions to the exceptions, to the exception.
It is DOJ, not the dealer. I am sure the dealer would like to make you happy and send you on your way and have one less gun in inventory. But, not at the risk of getting in
hot water with The Man.
As for the people who say call the cops, come on? Th is is clearly a CIVIL matter. No agency is going to rescue your gun for you. LEO's don't do civil law, they do criminal law. When 2 people disagree it is not always a crime. The dealer did not steal the gun, they have a reasonable fear of releasing it right now. (civil - no further - officer is 10-8)
Just relax and try to get it worked out. The dealer is not trying to make this difficult, DOJ did that for them. It sucks but really, If this is the worst thing that happens to you this week you are doing pretty well.
Good luck with it.

stitchnicklas
09-25-2010, 11:03 PM
call the credit card company and get ALL the charges refunded due to failure to deliver the agreed apon item,the gun store is breaching its contract with you in my eyes and charging you a double dros fee and walking around like a neutered rat for allowing the doj to screw with you.

i had a similar problem with *******re in riverside,the chumps let a rookie enter serials numbers and such in the dros and lo and behold gun came back stolen ,and the stupid gun store said uh we dunno what is going on i guess you have to wait.i had to call the doj and help them figure out that the idiots at *******re entered the model number instead of the serial number for a brand new gun,i bought 4 guns from that store and after that screwup i have never been back again...

get your money back and go to ocarmory or one of the calgun member shops that will treat you right..

the ***** stand for a gunshop and rules state i can not bash them,

tenpercentfirearms
09-26-2010, 1:18 AM
i had a similar problem with *******re in riverside,the chumps let a rookie enter serials numbers and such in the dros and lo and behold gun came back stolen ,and the stupid gun store said uh we dunno what is going on i guess you have to wait.i had to call the doj and help them figure out that the idiots at *******re entered the model number instead of the serial number for a brand new gun,i bought 4 guns from that store and after that screwup i have never been back again...

I never understood why stupid customers never check the serial number on the DROS when they sign it to make sure they get their product right. Customers are so moronic. I mean seriously, what a newb not to check the serial number. If I ever had a customer like that, I would kick them out and tell them never to come back again. :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid someone make a mistake on a serial number. Oh my gosh!

Again, the dealer was told they couldn't do the transaction. Why that is their fault I don't understand. I guess they should just buck the DOJ and do what they want anyway. I mean customers are pretty loyal. After buying four guns or even that one gun, if you get busted, the customer won't bail on you over some silly mistake or anything and they will help pay for the lawyers to help you fight the case right?

macey109
09-26-2010, 7:30 AM
the ffl in question doesn't allow dogs in his store (was telling my Dad about this thread and he said they wouldn't let his golden retriever in the store). Have to questiona gun store that's not pro dogs.

beemaze
09-26-2010, 7:44 AM
As for Field Time not allowing dogs, I think that may have something to do with the fact they sell food (pre-packaged) and that may be a FDA violation. They do allow Service Dogs, however.

Anyways, let's not turn this into a Field Time bashing thread, rather stick to the facts. I will post a follow up soon once I speak to someone at the DOJ who can assist me and hopefully resolve this issue - either by having Field Time release the handgun or officially deny the sale (which they haven't yet) - after I have presented them the facts.

1000 oaks
09-26-2010, 8:13 AM
I never understood why stupid customers never check the serial number on the DROS when they sign it to make sure they get their product right. Customers are so moronic. I mean seriously, what a newb not to check the serial number. If I ever had a customer like that, I would kick them out and tell them never to come back again. :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid someone make a mistake on a serial number. Oh my gosh!

Again, the dealer was told they couldn't do the transaction. Why that is their fault I don't understand. I guess they should just buck the DOJ and do what they want anyway. I mean customers are pretty loyal. After buying four guns or even that one gun, if you get busted, the customer won't bail on you over some silly mistake or anything and they will help pay for the lawyers to help you fight the case right?


:eek:

tenpercentfirearms
09-26-2010, 8:25 AM
the ffl in question doesn't allow dogs in his store (was telling my Dad about this thread and he said they wouldn't let his golden retriever in the store). Have to questiona gun store that's not pro dogs.

We used to allow pets until one just came into the store and crapped in the middle of the floor. I think it is quite reasonable for a business to not want your pet in their store. I would never take my dog shopping with me. That doesn't make me anti-dog. It just means I don't want to be rude to property owners who might not like dogs or want them shedding, pooping, peeing, or chasing their cat or their dogs.

jtmkinsd
09-26-2010, 11:55 AM
My question is who told the dealer to run it as 30 day exempt? If it was the customer, then the customer is liable for the $25. The dealer was doing what the customer asked and the DOJ said that won't work. That isn't the dealer's fault.

No offense, but when was the last time you took a customer's advice on how to DROS a firearm?

I agree too many customers are completely ignorant when it comes to the laws, and when we try to explain it to them, they arrogantly say "that's bullsh**" and act like we are denying them.

The solution to the OP's problem has been posted...I understand wanting to "vent" a little about the situation, but come on, is anyones life going to end if they don't walk out of the store with the gun they want, on the day they want it? Mistakes happen...the OP should use the situation to educate both the store (30 day exemptions), and himself (how to deal with bad info coming from DOJ), as opposed to acting like a kid who isn't getting the toy he wants. I guarantee it would be a great way to build a stronger relationship with your FFL and in the future they would be more willing to listen to you when problems come up. IMHO

stitchnicklas
09-26-2010, 1:09 PM
10%,sad to say but you are wrong.the dealer i was dealing with was a total idiot,so how was i supposed to know that they transmitted the wrong numbers?why did they wait 5 days for me to call and check on the dros status to tell me it was on hold?
i only found the discrepancy when i went to the shop compared the the gun dros and sells slip that THEY screwed up and were doing nothing to fix it or inform the customer that there was a problem.

i know you are a dealer but you do not have defend every dealer out there when they screwup. and yes i do realize that you are a quality dealer,but some out there are not

Packy14
09-26-2010, 2:33 PM
i digress.

RollingCode3
09-26-2010, 5:34 PM
Two shops I won't be visiting or ever spending my cash @:
1) field time
2) tenpercent

I'll keep taking my business to riflegear where they know what they are doing and treat their customers well... since, well, thats how you survive in business. The law is the law, and if you don't know it, stop running a freakin gun store!! I shouldn't have to teach you the damn law, you should be able to teach me, or stop being a freakin ffl and let someone who knows what the hell they are doing do it. Get your $$ back through your credit card and shake the dust off your shoes at the door.

:chillpill:

dachan
09-26-2010, 6:40 PM
I think you guys are being overly harsh. If you expect every gun dealer to know all of the gun laws in this state, I expect every customer to know ever gun law in this state. If you come into my shop and ask a stupid question, I am going to take a picture of you, get your name, and post it all over Calguns what a buffoon you are and how you should pay me money for your stupidity.

Two shops I won't be visiting or ever spending my cash @:
1) field time
2) tenpercent

10%, got to disagree with you here. I wouldn't take it to the level 2007 is advocating, but it is absolutely a dealer's responsibility to know the law; we're the professionals here. And if you know the DOJ often gives incorrect information, then use additional or backup sources. In this case Field Time is dead wrong and the OP is trying to gently educate them. We can't always go by the adage "the customer is always right", but in this case he is and the shop won't listen.

stitchnicklas
09-26-2010, 7:10 PM
Two shops I won't be visiting or ever spending my cash @:
1) field time
2) tenpercent

I'll keep taking my business to riflegear where they know what they are doing and treat their customers well... since, well, thats how you survive in business. The law is the law, and if you don't know it, stop running a freakin gun store!! I shouldn't have to teach you the damn law, you should be able to teach me, or stop being a freakin ffl and let someone who knows what the hell they are doing do it. Get your $$ back through your credit card and shake the dust off your shoes at the door.

umm ease up there man,no ffl bashing allowed.you may comment but not bash.

hill billy
09-26-2010, 8:54 PM
I have spent more time on the phone with DOJ than I would ever care to think about. I have found that Bonnie Wells is the only person worth talking to. Just about everyone at DOJ will freely admit that the only ones who know anything about anything are the Field reps. Bonnie Wells is the most experienced and knowledgeable Field rep and has trained many of the current reps.

KillZone45
09-26-2010, 10:00 PM
When u prove them wrong ask them how they are going to make good on their f**k up, since you are not happy with the situation.

Free box of some nice JHP's would be good IMO:)

gravedigger
09-26-2010, 10:08 PM
and people ask me why I am moving to Kentucky.

aratron
09-26-2010, 11:02 PM
Experienced the same s*** from Turners West Covina. The manager was unaware about the COE+C&R exemption as well. Apparently since Turners do so much gun business, they have a DOJ hotline who will answer their question in real time.

The on duty manager made the call and sure enough released my gun after talking to their DOJ guy. The way he explained it was that having the C&R has nothing to do with the exemption, having the COE is what really allow me to waive the 30day restriction. Not sure if he is correct. But I got my gun and they were able to get an answer from DOJ immediately.

I can see how a smaller shop who doesn't have that privilege would not be able to do what that Turners did. And if the DOJ technician said no after describing the situation, they will simply follow what that technician said regardless how much facts we can show. After all, it is their FFL on the line. So I completely understand their perspective.

The bottom line is simply get your money back and do biz with shops that are verse with the law. It is just like the OLL stuff in the past. We vote with our wallets. Shops who understand the law and can accommodate their customers needs will thrive. It is capitalism. :)

Packy14
09-26-2010, 11:53 PM
Experienced the same s*** from Turners West Covina. The manager was unaware about the COE+C&R exemption as well. Apparently since Turners do so much gun business, they have a DOJ hotline who will answer their question in real time.

The on duty manager made the call and sure enough released my gun after talking to their DOJ guy. The way he explained it was that having the C&R has nothing to do with the exemption, having the COE is what really allow me to waive the 30day restriction. Not sure if he is correct. But I got my gun and they were able to get an answer from DOJ immediately.

I can see how a smaller shop who doesn't have that privilege would not be able to do what that Turners did. And if the DOJ technician said no after describing the situation, they will simply follow what that technician said regardless how much facts we can show. After all, it is their FFL on the line. So I completely understand their perspective.

The bottom line is simply get your money back and do biz with shops that are verse with the law. It is just like the OLL stuff in the past. We vote with our wallets. Shops who understand the law and can accommodate their customers needs will thrive. It is capitalism. :)

exactly. I am not associated with any FFL or gunstore. I just don't think its the customers job to convince people/stores getting paid to do gun business how to do their jobs within the law. It's always nice if customers are well informed, but that is the exception, not the rule. In my line of work it is the same, I get paid to know my job, and if I don't... I don't get paid, and maybe I lose my license to work.

jtmkinsd
09-26-2010, 11:55 PM
...

jtmkinsd
09-26-2010, 11:59 PM
The on duty manager made the call and sure enough released my gun after talking to their DOJ guy. The way he explained it was that having the C&R has nothing to do with the exemption, having the COE is what really allow me to waive the 30day restriction. Not sure if he is correct. But I got my gun and they were able to get an answer from DOJ immediately.

Believe me...the C&R has everything to do with the exemption. The law was written to exempt collectors from the one in 30 day law to "collect" all the firearms they wanted. However, none of the brainiacs writing the law specified the exemption was only for C&R handguns...so, C&R + COE = as many handgun purchases as you can afford :43:

What most of the people looking for this exemption don't understand is when you get a C&R, BATFE expects it to be used...so if you go for your inspection and you've only brought in a handgun or two in a year, and they're both modern guns, don't expect to keep the C&R.

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2010, 6:16 AM
No offense, but when was the last time you took a customer's advice on how to DROS a firearm?

I agree too many customers are completely ignorant when it comes to the laws, and when we try to explain it to them, they arrogantly say "that's bullsh**" and act like we are denying them.

If a guy comes into my shop and says I can do something that I am not aware of, I will research it. I might call the DOJ and ask too. I fully admit I am not a complete expert on all of CA gun laws and I am not quick to shut people down as I can learn a lot from people. However, that is just me and I understand not all gun dealers act this way, hence this thread.

10%,sad to say but you are wrong.the dealer i was dealing with was a total idiot,so how was i supposed to know that they transmitted the wrong numbers?You sign the DROS form. Why didn't you check the serial numbers? That is exactly how you would have known. If you were as smart of a customer as you say you are, you would have checked that. You share responsibility.

why did they wait 5 days for me to call and check on the dros status to tell me it was on hold? I only found the discrepancy when i went to the shop compared the the gun dros and sells slip that THEY screwed up and were doing nothing to fix it or inform the customer that there was a problem.Poor customer service I suppose. I agree, that is one of the first things I do when I get a delay, I double check all of the information to see if the delay was caused on my end.

i know you are a dealer but you do not have defend every dealer out there when they screwup. and yes i do realize that you are a quality dealer,but some out there are notThe only reason I am defending anyone is your throwing around words like idiot and moron to describe a situation where you could have double checked the dealer's work and you could have paid more attention to what was going on. If the dealer ran the DROS as a long gun on a handgun, then that guy is an idiot. Getting a serial number wrong happens. I wouldn't be so quick to ream a guy for it, especially when you sign a document that in paraphrase says, "Is all of this right?"

10%, got to disagree with you here. I wouldn't take it to the level 2007 is advocating, but it is absolutely a dealer's responsibility to know the law; we're the professionals here. And if you know the DOJ often gives incorrect information, then use additional or backup sources. In this case Field Time is dead wrong and the OP is trying to gently educate them. We can't always go by the adage "the customer is always right", but in this case he is and the shop won't listen.

I agree it is the dealer's job to know the law, but don't kid yourselves. The law is complex and difficult to understand. It takes a lot of work and education to get it down.

I as an FFL will not state I know everything. I would most certainly appreciate a customer that wanted to come in and educate me on issues I am not as strong on. And maybe that is the key to good dealerships, they will listen to the customers and explore issues new to them.

Just remember as a customer, you will get a lot further if you are patient with a dealer and try to educate them. Also remember to go over anything that might become and issue with them before you start your DROS. And if the dealer calls the DOJ for clarification and the DOJ says they can't do it, don't blame the dealer. They are under constant threat of inspection and termination.

Again, good luck with getting this resolved. If you want to have the FFL in question call me or e-mail me, please do. I might even be able to give them a DOJ agent's number that I think will rightly clarify the issue for them.

beemaze
09-27-2010, 8:02 AM
10%, I tried PMing you, but you aren't accepting PM's. Please PM or email me the info you have on your DOJ contact, so that I may contact them myself and have them contact the dealer principal at Field Time.

Thanks.

beemaze
09-27-2010, 11:53 AM
I have spoken via telephone with a field agent from the BoF at CA DOJ regarding my situation. Keep in mind that I had to make a case and read verbatim the penal code as well as quote from a FAQ off of the DOJ website when I spoke with the agent. After we went through it together, the agent also had to clarify things with others and with her manager. After much back and forth telephone tag with the agent at BoF (over the past 3 hours), it has been determined that I am indeed correct. I asked the agent to kindly call the manager at Field Time, which she did, and they spoke and clarified the situation with the manager of Field Time.

So for now, it looks like I am good to go. I will post a further update after I actually take possession of the handgun. I can only hope there will be no further hitches in this matter with Field Time.

ke6guj
09-27-2010, 11:57 AM
that seems to be a re-occuring theme at CADOJ. Initially state that the C&R+COE exemption only applies to C&R handguns, then when confronted with the actual code that does not have any language limiting it to just C&R handguns, they reluctantly agree that it applies to modern handguns as well, when dealing with the 30-day rule.

Splinter
09-27-2010, 12:36 PM
Tenpercent. In my business experience I have eaten the customer’s bill many times. Even if they are completely wrong, I opened my own wallet to make them happy. If something such as a serial number mix-up is such a common occurrence. How about the FFL take 2 seconds and ask the customer to verify you entered it correctly. If I couldn’t enter a few numbers/letters correctly, I would be sued out of house and home. Why can’t I trust an FFL to do the same? No matter how idiotic the customer is, you as the FFL will be looked at as responsible for any mix-ups. You do these transactions all day long. The normal customer maybe does half a dozen in their life, and not all in CA. Yet, you repeatedly say they should know better? A good business owner assumes every customer is an idiot that requires their hand held from hello to goodbye. I wouldn’t last a week without being out of business if I didn’t check, recheck, and ask the client to verify everything before submitting. I can only recomend you change your vibe/responses to threads like this. Not everyone on here knows you. From your responses I would run for the hills if I didnt know from experiance you were one of the good guys.

imtheomegaman
09-27-2010, 1:07 PM
I'm kind of confused on why they're even selling guns when they don't understand the laws around them.

that's the whole point, the laws are so ambiguous and erratically enforced it's tough to know which way is up

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2010, 6:41 PM
Tenpercent. In my business experience I have eaten the customerís bill many times. Even if they are completely wrong, I opened my own wallet to make them happy. If something such as a serial number mix-up is such a common occurrence. How about the FFL take 2 seconds and ask the customer to verify you entered it correctly. If I couldnít enter a few numbers/letters correctly, I would be sued out of house and home. Why canít I trust an FFL to do the same? No matter how idiotic the customer is, you as the FFL will be looked at as responsible for any mix-ups. You do these transactions all day long. The normal customer maybe does half a dozen in their life, and not all in CA. Yet, you repeatedly say they should know better? A good business owner assumes every customer is an idiot that requires their hand held from hello to goodbye. I wouldnít last a week without being out of business if I didnít check, recheck, and ask the client to verify everything before submitting. I can only recomend you change your vibe/responses to threads like this. Not everyone on here knows you. From your responses I would run for the hills if I didnt know from experiance you were one of the good guys.

I am just playing devil's advocate. If you come on here harping about how stupid a dealer is, make sure itis legit and that you didn't have anything to do with it. In theory, a customer who sings a DROS that shows a serial number had just as much of a chance to double check the serial number as a dealer.

Personally, it is my responsibility and I will take responsibility for it. I agree, most customers don't know what in the heck they are doing and they rely on me to be the expert.

What business are you in where if you can't do a few serial numbers right you woudl be sued out of house and home? That sounds pretty high risk.

This is the FFL forums. I am going to play devils advocate. Hopefully it makes the Calgunner a smarter consumer. If a few guys get bent out of shape from reading my responses, no big deal. They tend to be the guys who live no where near me and would never have been my customers anyway.

Back to the OP, good job! I am glad you got that sorted out. Let us know how it goes in the end.

stitchnicklas
09-27-2010, 7:56 PM
sorry 10% ,but it is 100% not my fault when a douchebag gunshop screws up the model number,the papers i had were correct,the papers i went to the store and retrieved were the ones that showed where the problem was. yes i always get the dros but some shops only give it to me at the end of the transaction.

just a hint: bashing future/current/past customers intellect is not a smooth way of business,blaming a customer for the employees screwup is a bad thing to do also.your devils advocate position is not endearing you to others either..

glad i live in the i.e. and have a good gunshop to deal with now a days.

hill billy
09-27-2010, 8:33 PM
sorry 10% ,but it is 100% not my fault when a douchebag gunshop screws up the model number,the papers i had were correct,the papers i went to the store and retrieved were the ones that showed where the problem was. yes i always get the dros but some shops only give it to me at the end of the transaction.

just a hint: bashing future/current/past customers intellect is not a smooth way of business,blaming a customer for the employees screwup is a bad thing to do also.your devils advocate position is not endearing you to others either..

glad i live in the i.e. and have a good gunshop to deal with now a days.

What you're not getting is that this isn't necessarily the shop's fault either. Look at what you had to go through to get an answer. What makes you think a gun shop has it any easier when trying to decipher the stupid laws in this state?

sd_shooter
09-27-2010, 9:00 PM
Why not ask the FFL what they are going to do with your COE before you start the DROS? Then you wouldn't be in this pickle to begin with.

Now that you're in it, why not just wait it out?

A certain well respected FFL here in San Diego won't "play ball" with the COE+C&R rule either. He won't let you get two guns within 30 days. But I like him, so I don't care. If I were in a hurry, I'd go somewhere else.

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2010, 9:29 PM
sorry 10% ,but it is 100% not my fault when a douchebag gunshop screws up the model number,the papers i had were correct,the papers i went to the store and retrieved were the ones that showed where the problem was. yes i always get the dros but some shops only give it to me at the end of the transaction.

just a hint: bashing future/current/past customers intellect is not a smooth way of business,blaming a customer for the employees screwup is a bad thing to do also.your devils advocate position is not endearing you to others either.

It goes both ways. When describing gun shops as douche bags and giving me "just a hint", you sound like an arrogant know it all. The fact still remains that you signed a DROS at start that showed the incorrect serial number. You did not catch it. That makes the gun shop douche bags, but you are A OK?

You did make a mistake. You didn't closely check your DROS and it caused you heartache. A wise customer always checks his DROS for accuracy of information. Douchebag customers don't check, get held up, and then blame everyone else.

Again, I am just screwing with you now. Is it going to cost me any business? I highly doubt it. It always makes guys like you feel better because you will swear not to do any business with me and you will feel better about yourself for being such a smart guy to have weeded me out. Again, you were never going to do business with me anyway. Everyone else that is reading this has figured out one of two things.

They realize I am just messing with you because you are quick to throw out names and act superior when you are just as guilty, in this case, they find all of this quite entertaining. Or they don't realize I am screwing with you and they now vow to never drive hundreds of miles to see me either.

Again, despite my toying with you, I believe a dealer should be responsible for making sure the customer has a good experience. That means taking care of customers when you make a mistake. I have done this a lot of times. It usually ends up being a positive for the customer because after a slight delay or even a long one, they get goodies at a hell of a deal. I don't sweat stuff like that as it is just the cost of doing business. Live and learn.

dachan
09-27-2010, 10:00 PM
10%, I take it you'd be okay with everyone of your customers taking an additional two or three minutes to verify the DROS information was correctly entered as insurance against poor employee performance. Keep in mind this means they will need to have access to the firearm, be able to find the s/n, make, model, etc. Infamiliarity with the the DROS form may also slow down this check. Let's say you do 600 handgun transfers a year, that'll only be an extra 20 to 30 hrs (1200-1800minutes) spent DROS'ing every year. Reasonable? Maybe. Also will your clerks have the patience for each customer to check their worK? Hopefully.

stitchnicklas
09-27-2010, 10:52 PM
well 10%,i never said i would never do business with you,i live way to far from taft and the gunshop i am refering to as a douchebag shop is in riverside.there are only 4-5 shops here and bullseye sports,turners,riverside gun,jwguns,annies are not the douche's.

there is a local shop that those in riverside will notice is missing and is the douchebag.

tenpercentfirearms
09-28-2010, 5:56 AM
10%, I take it you'd be okay with everyone of your customers taking an additional two or three minutes to verify the DROS information was correctly entered as insurance against poor employee performance. Keep in mind this means they will need to have access to the firearm, be able to find the s/n, make, model, etc. Infamiliarity with the the DROS form may also slow down this check. Let's say you do 600 handgun transfers a year, that'll only be an extra 20 to 30 hrs (1200-1800minutes) spent DROS'ing every year. Reasonable? Maybe. Also will your clerks have the patience for each customer to check their worK? Hopefully.

If that is what you as the customer wants to do, not a problem. It is not unheard of at all for customers to spend one to two hours getting individualized attention in my shop. That is what we do.

So if a customer wants to spend some time reading the DROS, I have zero problems with that. I can always multi-task why they are doing that if it is that big of a deal.

Hey, let's just kiss and make up everyone. Our main goal here is to get the OP his gun and that is working. Yes, we all know or have experienced horror stories of DB gun shops. Let's save it for another thread.

beemaze
09-28-2010, 1:48 PM
A couple of hours after my last post, the manager of Field Time called me up and said he received a call from the BofF agent I spoke with saying there was a misunderstanding about the initial information they had received and that my exemption did apply to a modern handgun. And that I could come pick up my handgun. So it's all good news so far. Haven't made it to the store, hopefully later this week.

After reading some of the discussion here, here are a few of my thoughts:


1
Although name calling and ranting and raving make some feel better, it's counterproductive when dealing with someone at a gunstore or the B of F/CA DOJ. I must note that even though there were disagreements initially, I was extremely polite throughout and thankful. I told them it's nothing personal, just all business. At the end of the day, I told all parties involved how much I truly appreciated their help and I think they appreciated that too. "An armed society is a polite society!"


2
We are dealing with an ever expanding bureaucracy that really can be clueless at times. We have a bunch of crappy laws on the books, written by crappy legislator (lawyers) who deserve to be voted out of office. I seriously doubt anyone who wrote these laws and anyone at the B of F that I spoke with has even purchased a firearm in their lifetime. Even when confronted with the written law in plain English, words were used like "assumption" and "intent" when I spoke with the agents. Very scary. They are not lawyers and should not have to interpret law for themselves. Any reasonable person would see the exemption applies to any handgun (legal for sale in CA).


3
I would have hoped the gun store could have stepped up to the plate when it came to dealing with the CA DOJ. Instead, I had to spend almost 3 hours in order to get what I wanted from the DOJ and Field Time. I call it lack of leadership and/or lack of customer service on the part of Field Time. I have worked with many a gun store in So. Cal, and the ones I give repeat business to don't know it all either, but when they don't know, they make the EXTRA effort to get to the bottom of things for their customers. I too run a business that is subject to city and state inspectors on a yearly basis; I make it a point to know the laws as best as possible, and if not, I seek counsel, legal or otherwise. Yes, in my business, not crossing t's or dotting i's, and not filling out logs and forms and endless paperwork correctly and in a timely manner can result in instant closure and/or nonpayment. I have multiple employees as part of my machine to deal with this bureaucracy of ours. It sucks, but you do what you have to do to keep customers and the government happy.


4
I see alot of discussion here some of which I agree with, and some I disagree with. Either way, I think we can all agree to disagree with one another, but keep this in mind: We are all in it together. We can't just blame one individual or institution for what goes wrong. But we can try and make a change. So, let's get out there and vote the antigunners out.

United we stand, divided we fall.

aratron
09-28-2010, 2:03 PM
United we stand, divided we fall.

Second that, bro.

beb1954
09-28-2010, 4:26 PM
God, how I love this state (of confusion).

stitchnicklas
09-28-2010, 4:52 PM
gun released yet??

beemaze
09-30-2010, 1:47 PM
gun released yet??

Picked it up today! Received an apology as well. A lot of effort for one gun, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!

novabrian
09-30-2010, 1:57 PM
I would have told then to shove it and bought from someone else!

ke6guj
09-30-2010, 2:03 PM
I would have told then to shove it and bought from someone else!

that would be an option, but the OP already paid for the gun, the DROS, and did the ten day wait. To tell them to shove would probably have cost him the DROS fees and he would have needed to start a new 10-day wait elsewhere. This way, by not bailing out, he got his gun, educated his FFL, possibly educated at least one person at CADOJ, etc. Now the next person who goes to this FFL with a C&R+COE exemption might just be able to DROS multiple modern handguns in a 30-day period without issues.