Reasons for not permantly attaching a mag

[6172crew]

If the DOJ is hell bent on making all the AR/AKs permantly fixed magazined lowers then I say we should start coming up with reasons why this is a bad idea.

1. If a malfuntion was to happen at the range how would you remove the rest of the ammo to make it safe? Id hate to go home and try to deal with a live round in the chamber and Im sure the neighbors would also enjoy the fact that with a tool I can remove the ammo in the mag and continue to fix the problem before bringing home and haveing something bad happen.

2. The magzine in a AR15 is meant to move a little and should be removed in order to inspect, clean, replace if the firearm should become unreliable.

We need to nip this in the bud also, if the DOJ is really going to follow this path then we should be prepared to argue our case.

[Henry47]

1. If a malfuntion was to happen at the range how would you remove the rest of the ammo to make it safe? Id hate to go home and try to deal with a live round in the chamber and Im sure the neighbors would also enjoy the fact that with a tool I can remove the ammo in the mag and continue to fix the problem before bringing home and haveing something bad happen.



This is my main concern. It took me about 10-15 minutes to remove the cartridge when my ar doublefed. That is 15 minutes too long. Quite a dangerous situation in my opinion

[Fate]

We just need some gripless stock designs that are in actual production and available for mass consumption.

There are some good ideas flowing elsewhere in the forums. Many of which would look much scarier than a pinned mag/neutered AR with a pistol grip to the DoJ/liberal media/soccer moms...especially when the user is able to LEGALLY, drop (and repeat) expended 30 round mags he bought pre-ban while putting those fast twitch muscle skills to use in his trigger finger. :D

If the DoJ wants to play hardball, let's play hardball. Go gripless and go free.

[Gregas]

This is my main concern. It took me about 10-15 minutes to remove the cartridge when my ar doublefed. That is 15 minutes too long. Quite a dangerous situation in my opinion

Just pop both pins and remove the upper. It only takes seconds. You can do this with the bolt in any position.

[12voltguy]

We just need some gripless stock designs that are in actual production and available for mass consumption.

There are some good ideas flowing elsewhere in the forums. Many of which would look much scarier than a pinned mag/neutered AR with a pistol grip to the DoJ/liberal media/soccer moms...especially when the user is able to LEGALLY, drop (and repeat) expended 30 round mags he bought pre-ban while putting those fast twitch muscle skills to use in his trigger finger. :D

If the DoJ wants to play hardball, let's play hardball. Go gripless and go free.
I think you need to get a "GRIP"....LOL:D :rolleyes:

[6172crew]

Just pop both pins and remove the upper. It only takes seconds. You can do this with the bolt in any position.

Thanks Iggy, I mean Gregas.:rolleyes:

Thats another good reason to weld your mag shut. :cool:

[C.G.]

Thanks Iggy, I mean Gregas.:rolleyes:

Thats another good reason to weld your mag shut. :cool:

I think he was trying to be helpful, obviously not everyone knows; no reason for sarcasm.

[6172crew]

I think he was trying to be helpful, obviously not everyone knows; no reason for sarcasm.

I guess hearing his side will help us with that when it comes down, its to bad folks are so willing to write off the way a mag is fixed. The thread was started to tap into the folks here to come up with arguements against fixing a mag and I have 2 guys ok with it and 1 guy who says its a good idea.

Sorry, please continue.:)

[Paradiddle]

Many of which would look much scarier than a pinned mag/neutered AR with a pistol grip to the DoJ/liberal media/soccer moms...

All the soccer moms I know are hot. Don't be a hater...

[DV8]

I decided to go gripless for the meantime. I want to break in my rifle faster and clear malfunctions as easy and as safe as possible. I know it can be done even with a pinned mag, I just dont want the hassle at this point.

When I'm done, I'll put the pg on and fix the mag. Or if I can get used to a gripless ar (and have extra funds) slap on some ambi controls, get a sidecharging upper and keep it gripless.

[dawson8r]

My friend and I were shooting our pinned mag ARs last week and my rifle experienced a failed casing. Extractor tore the back half of the casing off leaving the front half in the chamber. Next round was stripped and shoved into the chambered casing. Fortunately the bolt wasn't able to come all the forward and lock. What was the first thing I did? Get an allen wrench, loosen the set screw, and dropped the mag out. A good tug on the charging handle popped it all out.

I'm with the guys that say DON'T PERMANENTLY FIX IT!

[kenc9]

We just need some gripless stock designs that are in actual production and available for mass consumption.

There are some good ideas flowing elsewhere in the forums. Many of which would look much scarier than a pinned mag/neutered AR with a pistol grip to the DoJ/liberal media/soccer moms...especially when the user is able to LEGALLY, drop (and repeat) expended 30 round mags he bought pre-ban while putting those fast twitch muscle skills to use in his trigger finger. :D

If the DoJ wants to play hardball, let's play hardball. Go gripless and go free.

That is exactly the answer, go gripless...muzzle brakes...and pin the adjustable butt...leave your removeable mag just like it is.

I think the only reason they are going after the mag right now is the DOJ is behind the curve and think gripless isn't something that will catch on.

My AK is going gripless and my AR will be right afterwards.

-ken

[Ten Rounder]

How about a 22lr upper conversion like a CZ V22? If mine ever gets here.

[James R.]

How about a 22lr upper conversion like a CZ V22? If mine ever gets here.

This doesn't really help you though. If you have an AR lower with a pistol grip on it they won't care that you put a 22LR upper on it. In their eyes you have an assault weapon by virtue of how the lower is configured :-( Specifically, a receiver which can, "accept" and a pistol grip. They'll find a way to piss on your parade, fo sho.

Regards,

James R.

[ALTSEC972]

Just pop both pins and remove the upper. It only takes seconds. You can do this with the bolt in any position.

I call bullshi0t!

If the bolt is even slightly back, you will damage the bolt by doing this, or it will not be nearly as easy as you claim!

Taking apart an AR series in the middle of a jam is no fun thing. Gregas, have you personally pulled both pins and attempted to remove the upper from an AR, while it was jammed? Have you tried to do this while brass, (or anything for that matter) was stuck between the barrel and bolt?

I think you may have misspoke.

[taloft]

My friend and I were shooting our pinned mag ARs last week and my rifle experienced a failed casing. Extractor tore the back half of the casing off leaving the front half in the chamber. Next round was stripped and shoved into the chambered casing. Fortunately the bolt wasn't able to come all the forward and lock. What was the first thing I did? Get an allen wrench, loosen the set screw, and dropped the mag out. A good tug on the charging handle popped it all out.

I'm with the guys that say DON'T PERMANENTLY FIX IT!
Don't you mean to say that the first thing you did was to remove the pistol grip before you removed the mag?

[bu-bye]

I must say I love gripless over a pinned or fixed mag. I have had a few problems with jams in my fixed mag FAB-10. One time we had to stop all fire on the range. Seconds after the jam of a live round in the chamber the range master called a cease fire. We had to rush over and tell the RM that there was a hot weapon jammed. Took me 5 min to get the round out while everyone watched and waited. Don't think I made a lot of friends that day.

For those who want more info about going gripless please see the link in my sig below.

[shopkeep]

bu-bye I LOVE the SRB... I'm building up an XM177 A2 clone now just so I can use the SRB, my pre-ban mags, and my ARMS #39A2 all in one rifle. Gonna go bumpin around on BLM land :D!

[James R.]

I must say I love gripless over a pinned or fixed mag. I have had a few problems with jams in my fixed mag FAB-10. One time we had to stop all fire on the range. Seconds after the jam of a live round in the chamber the range master called a cease fire. We had to rush over and tell the RM that there was a hot weapon jammed. Took me 5 min to get the round out while everyone watched and waited. Don't think I made a lot of friends that day.

For those who want more info about going gripless please see the link in my sig below.

I don't wanna step on your toes or anything, but I have to beg the question. Why is the SRB so, "primitive"? Is it for lack of design capacity, lack of access to better machining capabilities? I just doodled this up in like ~10 mins. The dimensions are pure BS, I didn't even bother to center everything up or measure anything, but I do have IGES files for AR-15 lower receivers so I know I can get everything perfect such that it follows the lines of the rifle precisely and leaves no sharp edges and could be finished in a nice bead blast with black or clear anodize over that.

Here's an example of what I had in mind... (http://www.apatheology.com/public_shares/images/SRB_Alternate.jpg)

Ignore the contours...I'd make them match the gun. That little gapper detail could go, it's just more machine time, that is unless you cast them or have an extrusion die made and then machine the chopped off extrusions of the side profile at which point the, "gapper" aspect is virtually free.

This too does not allow for a grasp IMHO, the web of your hand would slide right off...heck I can even increase the angle so that it just follows the back part of the grip mount. But at the very least it would get rid of all the hard sharp edges and give the gun a much more finished look...

Regards,

James R.

[adamsreeftank]

I don't wanna step on your toes or anything, but I have to beg the question. Why is the SRB so, "primitive"? Is it for lack of design capacity, lack of access to better machining capabilities? I just doodled this up in like ~10 mins. The dimensions are pure BS, I didn't even bother to center everything up or measure anything, but I do have IGES files for AR-15 lower receivers so I know I can get everything perfect such that it follows the lines of the rifle precisely and leaves no sharp edges and could be finished in a nice bead blast with black or clear anodize over that.
.

If you build it, they will come.

[C.G.]

I call bullshi0t!

If the bolt is even slightly back, you will damage the bolt by doing this, or it will not be nearly as easy as you claim!

Taking apart an AR series in the middle of a jam is no fun thing. Gregas, have you personally pulled both pins and attempted to remove the upper from an AR, while it was jammed? Have you tried to do this while brass, (or anything for that matter) was stuck between the barrel and bolt?

I think you may have misspoke.

Well, I have. Had a bad case of .50 Beowulf and the rounds would get stuck half way in the chamber on my fixed mag Vulcan. It is not difficult to remove the upper with both pins out and will not damage the bolt, if you don't bang on stuff which is not necessary anyway. New to ARs?

[rssslvr]

bu-bye I LOVE the SRB... I'm building up an XM177 A2 clone now just so I can use the SRB, my pre-ban mags, and my ARMS #39A2 all in one rifle. Gonna go bumpin around on BLM land :D!
I too am happy with the SRB.I knew that gripless was the way to go right from the begining and will be ordering 2 more SRBs for my next builds

[AxonGap]

I agree that we need to come up w/ grip alternatives. Pinned/welded mags = Potentially unsafe firearm.

Check out these other threads regarding grip/stock alternatives:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34269
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34022
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33799

[Gregas]

Thanks Iggy, I mean Gregas.:rolleyes:


Careful there, them's fighting words!

Seriously, I was just trying to be helpful. I've had to deal with jams in mine and I didn't want people to struggle for no reason. It did not occur to me to take off the upper on the first jam that I had.

[-hanko]

Well, I have. Had a bad case of .50 Beowulf and the rounds would get stuck half way in the chamber on my fixed mag Vulcan.
Which, having wrenched on more then a few Hesse/Vulcans, I would not consider unexpected. Try a good lower:D

-hanko

[bu-bye]

While i do respect your opinion on your design I do not agree. Before I came up with the current SRB design I had made a device the looked just like yours. It covered both sides and had a rounded back. This design was discussed with the members (many senior) of this board and was rejected. It was thought best to not have anything touch the web of your hand even if it showed no advantage for holding. It was agreed that a very basic bracket that did not touch the hand was the best way to not get put in jail. I wanted the SRB to be a very clear in the white area of the law and not step into a grey area that would put people at risk.

The other side is the machining cost. The more you complicate the design the more money it costs to make. This was also a factor when I designed it. Working with a CNC machine shop we wanted to give people a low enough pirce so that everyone could have one. The cost for your design would be much higher and take longer to machine.

I have been looking into this more then anyone in California and the design is what it is for a reason. Every idea I have seen since January we have looking into and with every design you have to look at it through the DOJ's eyes. You CAN NOT sell a product that will put people at risk with the DOJ. It's not fair to them even if you "think" the design is OK.

Please be careful with anything you guys build. Is stepping into a grey area worth going to jail and never being able to own a firearm again?

I don't wanna step on your toes or anything, but I have to beg the question. Why is the SRB so, "primitive"? Is it for lack of design capacity, lack of access to better machining capabilities? I just doodled this up in like ~10 mins. The dimensions are pure BS, I didn't even bother to center everything up or measure anything, but I do have IGES files for AR-15 lower receivers so I know I can get everything perfect such that it follows the lines of the rifle precisely and leaves no sharp edges and could be finished in a nice bead blast with black or clear anodize over that.

Here's an example of what I had in mind... (http://www.apatheology.com/public_shares/images/SRB_Alternate.jpg)

Ignore the contours...I'd make them match the gun. That little gapper detail could go, it's just more machine time, that is unless you cast them or have an extrusion die made and then machine the chopped off extrusions of the side profile at which point the, "gapper" aspect is virtually free.

This too does not allow for a grasp IMHO, the web of your hand would slide right off...heck I can even increase the angle so that it just follows the back part of the grip mount. But at the very least it would get rid of all the hard sharp edges and give the gun a much more finished look...

Regards,

James R.

[James R.]

While i do respect your opinion on your design I do not agree. Before I came up with the current SRB design I had made a device the looked just like yours. It covered both sides and had a rounded back. This design was discussed with the members (many senior) of this board and was rejected. It was thought best to not have anything touch the web of your hand even if it showed no advantage for holding. It was agreed that a very basic bracket that did not touch the hand was the best way to not get put in jail. I wanted the SRB to be a very clear in the white area of the law and not step into a grey area that would put people at risk.

The other side is the machining cost. The more you complicate the design the more money it costs to make. This was also a factor when I designed it. Working with a CNC machine shop we wanted to give people a low enough pirce so that everyone could have one. The cost for your design would be much higher and take longer to machine.

I have been looking into this more then anyone in California and the design is what it is for a reason. Every idea I have seen since January we have looking into and with every design you have to look at it through the DOJ's eyes. You CAN NOT sell a product that will put people at risk with the DOJ. It's not fair to them even if you "think" the design is OK.

Please be careful with anything you guys build. Is stepping into a grey area worth going to jail and never being able to own a firearm again?

Barring an official endorsement of your product by the DOJ you merely, "think" your design is ok as well.

I'm pretty sure I could make the SRB like the one I doodled up cheaply enough to be sold for ~$40 or thereabouts. I have a business associate that owns a huge machine shop up in Goleta who might be willing to do something like this.

Have you at the very least given consideration to that bolt you use to affix it? I don't see why it needs to be something that protrudes and looks so unfinished. You have a flat surface, you can get bolts with 90~110 degree countersink, allen head and have that thing sit totally flush. This is less protrusion in the area of the grip and therefore even more, "legal" than something which has a bolt standing ~0.125" in the wrong direction in the eyes of the law.

Like I said, not trying to get in a pissing match, just offering some feedback / suggestions.

Regards,

James R.

[blacklisted]

I'd be more interested in a "thumb grip".

I thought we came to the conclusion that the position of the "web of the hand" does not matter as long as there is no "pistol style grasp". If just the thumb is grasping the grip, then there is no pistol style grasp.

[James R.]

I'd be more interested in a "thumb grip".

I thought we came to the conclusion that the position of the "web of the hand" does not matter as long as there is no "pistol style grasp". If just the thumb is grasping the grip, then there is no pistol style grasp.

Could offer it both ways, in the end it's up to you to decide if you think it's legal or not. If I offered them for sale I'd make it quite clear that we offer no advice as to the legality of applying this thing to your gun.

I sent all the files over to my buddy to see if he's even interested in getting involved, he's got a huge machine shop and can do everything in house right down to bead blast and hard coat anodize.

Regards,

James R.

[SC_00_05]

I'd be more interested in a "thumb grip".

I thought we came to the conclusion that the position of the "web of the hand" does not matter as long as there is no "pistol style grasp". If just the thumb is grasping the grip, then there is no pistol style grasp.
I thought so too but of course there's no certainty since this is the DOJ we're talking about. I, for one, will simply cut my PGs down. Web or no web, it doesn't matter since no "pistol style grasp" has been attained.

BTW: Please, nobody take this as any sort of legal advice

[C.G.]

Which, having wrenched on more then a few Hesse/Vulcans, I would not consider unexpected. Try a good lower:D

-hanko

In this case, it was the ammo.