Please respect dealers and FFLs if they do not carry lowers.

[Maddog5150]

I work at a gun shop and my employer wishes not to carry, sell, or FFL in any off listed lowers, its his decision and his right to refuse to carry any products he doesnt want to. If it was my way we would carry them. Well the other day I was showing a this customer a 10/22 for his son when another guy behind hi yelled out, "Dont buy that gun here. Go to brightspot and get yourself an AR lower." At which point he could of pulled out soapbox and stood on it as he started preaching for people not to "waste" thier money at my shop when they could go get a lower and build a fully functional AR. When I approached him about it and told him to respect our business, he looked at me and said, "NO its OK!" as if he owned the place and at which point as I asked him to leave our already crowded gun store.
We have the flyers from California Pistol and Rifle Association all over our store, customers could read them at thier leasure but please respect those gun shops who dont carry the lowers. I dont go to your place of work and try to financially harm your business, please dont do this to mine or anyones. I also feel I should not name my store as no one should do this to ANY store period.
Thanks.

[EBWhite]

I'm betting you work at Turners?

Well, i did a similiar thing at Turners in Pasadena after someone was looking at a Carbon 15- he asked what about OLL's? The worker said those are illegal. Well i jumped in and said my peace.

[thmpr]

+1!!!!!!!!!!!

[Unknownassailant]

I work at a gun shop and my employer wishes not to carry, sell, or FFL in any off listed lowers, its his decision and his right to refuse to carry any products he doesnt want to. If it was my way we would carry them. Well the other day I was showing a this customer a 10/22 for his son when another guy behind hi yelled out, "Dont buy that gun here. Go to brightspot and get yourself an AR lower." At which point he could of pulled out soapbox and stood on it as he started preaching for people not to "waste" thier money at my shop when they could go get a lower and build a fully functional AR. When I approached him about it and told him to respect our business, he looked at me and said, "NO its OK!" as if he owned the place and at which point as I asked him to leave our already crowded gun store.
We have the flyers from California Pistol and Rifle Association all over our store, customers could read them at thier leasure but please respect those gun shops who dont carry the lowers. I dont go to your place of work and try to financially harm your business, please dont do this to mine or anyones. I also feel I should not name my store as no one should do this to ANY store period.
Thanks.

Black Rifle Disease!!!!

[bwiese]

Yes, it is their gunshop and customers are 'guests'.

I won't fault them for not selling OLLs. I do fault gunshops and gun businesses for passing out bad/incorrect info, however - and it's even worse when it's self-serving (GB Sales Bushmaster weldups, for example).

I've been in several - Reed's Alum Rock included - when the sales guy makes some off the wall statement about gun laws. I politely add my two bits as a 'clarfication' if I'm standing nearby. Usually it goes well. One of the best gunshops, by contrast, is my nearby Almaden Gun Exchange - and not just because they sell OLLs. There's some real experts there.

Gunshop folks ***** about folks that "hear stuff on the internet". I have found far more consistent and correct information, however, from the internet than from most gunshops.

[Maddog5150]

No I dont work in Pasadena.

[VeryCoolCat]

Thats the same type of people who go to stores and then say "why are you more expensive than so & so."

If someone starts doing the soapbox thing you can ask them to leave if not, call the cops for disrupting your buisness.

[Maddog5150]

I never BSed about the law. Hell the one incident as stated above I was showing a 10/22. I try to avoid the topic at work unless its just between me and coworkers or customers I know personally who I know wont report me to management because there are screwed up people like that. Like I said, if we carried them I would be selling them full speed.

[shopkeep]

Nagging a store and their customers because the store doesn't want to get involved in the off-list lowers episode --> NOT COOL.

Correcting a store when they spout off DOJ inspired FUD and bullcrap like, "off list lowers are illegal" --> Damn straight it's cool!

Know the difference.

[Satex]

What that customer did was rude and unacceptable. I wonder why he was at your store to begin with if he was so passionate about not doing business with gun stores that don’t carry OLL.
On similar terms, please accept that not all OLL owners are as rude and inappropriate as the person you had to deal with. I respect any business to carry whatever they want, and if I don’t agree with something I walk out and go where I want to spend my money.

[SFV_Dealer]

Yeah, I get the same attitude by those who buy OLL and start questioning the laws, ordinances, and taxes in this state. Why get upset at a dealer who is transferring OLL just because the customer doesn't want to pay sales tax (actually the SBOE calls it "USE TAX")... They should become lawmakers themselves and stop these stupid laws, ordinances and taxes...

[bg]

I never BSed about the law. Hell the one incident as stated above I was showing a 10/22. I try to avoid the topic at work unless its just between me and coworkers or customers I know personally who I know wont report me to management because there are screwed up people like that. Like I said, if we carried them I would be selling them full speed.
One of these days, if the creeps up in Sac who have it
out for guns have their way, gun shops will be a thing of
the past. You don't have to agree with the way a shop
does business, but if you go there you should at least
try and be civil. If the shop's employees start acting
bad, you can leave, or report to the mgr and then leave.

Last thing we need to do is start fighting within the ranks.
I realize there are faults on both sides, but don't you
think that's what the anti gun front thrives on ? If
you want any more real life example, look what the
DOJ has done. They are masters of mis information
and like nothing better than to say one thing and do
another. That's how they create chaos within the pro
gun community.

We simply must try to work together or else....

[BamBam-31]

I get the opposite. The guys at my local shop are pretty cool, but they won't touch OLL's with a 10' pole. Sad, really, cuz they could have made some serious $$$ with the black rifle disease hitting SoCal as hard as it did (right, Pirate?). They know I'm heavy into the craze, so every time I enter the store, one guy kids, "Hey, here comes the felon." :cool:

BTW, these are the same guys that have CA-legal Vulcan and Bushmaster rifles hanging on the wall. :rolleyes:

If I overhear any type of conversation regarding OLL's, I'll try to add what little I know, then end with a referral to this website. I figure that's the best piece of advice I could give anyone interested.

[artherd]

There is an appropriate way to express a civilised opinion.

That said, any gunstore who 'will not sell' AR lowers because they 'don't like them' (or other non-financial reasons) at this point might as well not sell to blacks, asians or anyone under 30.

It's prejudice at this point, born of cowardise and possibly a little ignorance, but mostly lack of any remaining balls whatsoever.

Gentlemen, we Duck-Gunners and AR-hounds must truely hang together, or else we will all hang seperately.

[JaeFern]

wow... people now adays.

[sintax]

No I dont work in Pasadena.

So Turners in Riverside then ;)

[Kevlarman]

So Turners in Riverside then ;)

San Berdoo?
:D

[DigglerD]

Gunshop folks ***** about folks that "hear stuff on the internet". I have found far more consistent and correct information, however, from the internet than from most gunshops.

Amen to that...

[DigglerD]

That said, any gunstore who 'will not sell' AR lowers because they 'don't like them' (or other non-financial reasons) at this point might as well not sell to blacks, asians or anyone under 30.

It's prejudice at this point, born of cowardise and possibly a little ignorance, but mostly lack of any remaining balls whatsoever.

It's not the same. As a store-owner, I can sell what I wish. It's not wrong to sell Fuji apples and not sell Golden Delicious because I don't like them... I just may lose customers who want Golden Delicious apples.

[bear308]

ah capitolism at it's finest

[ohsmily]

ah capitolism at it's finest

or perhaps capitalism...

[olegk]

Their rights sell whatever thy want, my rights to buy every my gun through FFL that supports and cares OOL, even though I have to drive extra 30 miles.

[xenophobe]

Yes, it is their gunshop and customers are 'guests'.

I won't fault them for not selling OLLs. I do fault gunshops and gun businesses for passing out bad/incorrect info, however - and it's even worse when it's self-serving (GB Sales Bushmaster weldups, for example).

I couldn't agree more. A store that doesn't want to sell a particular item is allowed to and as long as they'll just admit that "they don't want to do it" as opposed to making up silly excuses have that right.

IT's also your choice if you wish to frequent shops like this, and I'd say, don't hold it against them. Each store has it's own focus, and shouldn't be blamed for it.

[Richie Rich]

The local store that I frequent does not sell OLL. They were not rude nor did they spread misinformation, they just chose not to sell them.

So I found a place here that sell OLL (thanks CWS) and had it shipped to a local FFL. When I went to DROS my lowers I found something cool. A small, mom and pop gun store with very knowledgable people.

The store that I normally go to didn't lose a customer really, but the FFL that did the DROS gained a new one.

[socalguns]

What makes you think that guy is going to read your post here?
Or heed that advice?
All this does is disturb me needlessly,
without telling me which store to avoid :D

[bear308]

or perhaps capitalism...
mae bee:D :D

[vega]

Their rights sell whatever thy want, my rights to buy every my gun through FFL that supports and cares OOL, even though I have to drive extra 30 miles.
What's OOL? Now I think that's illegal.;)

[PLINK]

or perhaps capitalism...

You should put this link in your signature.

http://www.spellcheck.net/

[Snuffalofogus]

or perhaps capitalism...
perhaps...

[James R.]

I'm betting you work at Turners?

Well, i did a similiar thing at Turners in Pasadena after someone was looking at a Carbon 15- he asked what about OLL's? The worker said those are illegal. Well i jumped in and said my peace.

Turners makes me sick man :-( Not saying this is true of all Turners folks, there's a guy at my local Turners that's a real decent guy.

Anyhow one day I went into my local turners to see if on the off chance they happened to carry 50 BMG *ammo*. I asked one guy and he wasn't sure, so he asked another guy behind the counter and almost instantly his attitude turned to complete ***** and he responded with, "don't you know those rifles and that ammo are illegal in this state" as if I were some kinda freaking terrorist cause I own a 50 BMG, how DARE I. I of course made a point of informing him that while it's true the rifles have been banned the ammo is perfectly legal and choosing not to carry it only causes you to narrow your market as there are plenty of persons such as myself with legally owned and registered 50 BMG's who would be more than happy to buy it there purely for the convenience of it.

Then, as I was about to leave I scanned my eyes across the ammo behind the counter and said something along the lines of, "you're going to get all preachy about my shooting 50 BMG baby killer while you're selling 338 Lapua? Give me a freaking break..."

Regards,

James R.

[James R.]

Back in December of year before last when I was trying to get my 50 BMG I had called around to a lot of dealers.

There were a good number I called who flat out refused, Turners of course refused stating that they don't do the whole FFL out of state transfer thing. Fine, I think that actually was true at the time. I called a few more places and they were acting real shady and saying they didn't want to get involved...

I don't mind listing the ones that left my high and dry...

Fowler Gun Room, flat out refused...(I had bought numerous guns there too)
Stockade, flat out refused...

Those two are owned by the same people I think...

The most offensive of them all however was Grant Brothers. I asked if they could transfer a receiver and they said sure. And so I said ok great, it's a 50 BMG and it'll be...before I could finish my sentence she cut me off and said I don't think I can do that. I was like hey, look...there's plenty of time, I'm using expedited shipping and it WILL be there to be DROS'd with a few days to spare. She set the phone down, came back and said the manager says no, can't do it. So after being shot down so many times I wasn't going to let her hang up w/o a reason. So she puts the phone back down and we get the truth as she told it. Owner of the shop has, and I paraphrase, "an agreement with the CLEO for their city that Grant Bro's will not be involved in bringing, "those sorts of weapons into our city" this is a non-negotiable policy". Ohhhh kay...

Ultimately Bosla Gunsmithing did it for me, didn't bat an eyelash. It cost me $75 for the out of state and $25 DROS which is a wee steep, but when the difference between 50 BMG and no 50 BMG is $30 you don't quibble.

I used a different FFL for my OLL's and he's great...runs out of a gun/coin shop in Santa Ana, his fees are much more reasonable and he's a far more personable feller so he'll prolly be getting more of my business.

Regards,

James R.

[eje]

Yeah, I get the same attitude by those who buy OLL and start questioning the laws, ordinances, and taxes in this state. Why get upset at a dealer who is transferring OLL just because the customer doesn't want to pay sales tax (actually the SBOE calls it "USE TAX")... They should become lawmakers themselves and stop these stupid laws, ordinances and taxes...


SFV_Dealer, do you happen to have a link handy for whatever regulation it is that obligates a transfer dealer to collect use tax from somebody who is buying a firearm from someone out of state? I've always wondered about this; some FFL's collect the tax, others don't. Thanks!

[kantstudien]

The Board of Equalization is supposed to receive the "use tax" directly from the individual who purchased goods out of state, not from a second-hand source. When I want to buy something from someone, I don't take out their federal and state income tax on the income they would be earning from me. For example, if you were selling a car for $500, I wouldn't give you $425 and say that I am withholding the other $75 for "tax purposes." :rolleyes:

[eje]

The Board of Equalization is supposed to receive the "use tax" directly from the individual who purchased goods out of state, not from a second-hand source. When I want to buy something from someone, I don't take out their federal and state income tax on the income they would be earning from me. For example, if you were selling a car for $500, I wouldn't give you $425 and say that I am withholding the other $75 for "tax purposes." :rolleyes:

That's always been my understanding too. If an FFL wanted to charge me use tax for an internet sale, I'd just use somebody else. But if there's some regulation or BOE opinion out there that says the FFL has to collect it, I'd like to see it just for my own edification!;)

[m2hbvic]

Here's a good one for y'all on "respecting non-OLL dealers"! My son-in-law called me up the other day and told me that he and a couple of his friends had gone to Santa Fe Gun Galleria in Palmdale to browse the selection of guns that they had. (My SIL is a 25 year old newbee to guns and I'm spreading "the disease" of guns on to him.) He tells me that he was looking at some of the pistols and in conversation asked the Santa Fe midget if they sold any OLL's. The midget sez that they don't. My SIL then asks him why they don't. The midget then chimes in and sez that they don't sell OLL's because they are illegal and that the government (CA DOJ?) is going to confiscate them and take them away from all the people that bought them! I asked my SIL if, by chance, the midget had any explanation on how over 30,000 "illegal" OLL's were able to be shipped into CA and sold by FFL's all over the state, but he decided not to get into an argument with the midget and him and his friends left!

So,..............the Santa Fe midget can kiss my butt!

[Pryde]

I think you all are missing the point.

The point is, the man was trying to sell someone a 10/22 and another rude customer tried to discourage the sale by telling the guy to go somewhere else and buy an AR.

If a gunshop is unwilling to sell ARs thats their right, if they don't wanna sell OLLs but they wanna sell FAB10's and Bushies, thats also their right and it is your right to take your money and buying power to another store that is willing to sell you an OLL. If you are trying to discourage other people from buying from that store based on the fact that they will not sell OLL, that is rude. As it was in this case.

Cheers

[tenpercentfirearms]

That's always been my understanding too. If an FFL wanted to charge me use tax for an internet sale, I'd just use somebody else. But if there's some regulation or BOE opinion out there that says the FFL has to collect it, I'd like to see it just for my own edification!I don't have the e-mail handy, but the BOE told me I have to collect the tax on guns I transfer unless the person can produce a receipt showing they already paid the tax. I don't agree with it, but that is what they said. It isn't like I am pocketing your tax money anyway, I have to pay it right back to the state. This issue is so clouded that half of the people do it an half of the people don't. I can tell you and I will show you later tonight, the BOE is claiming we have to.

[PIRATE14]

Plus don't forget to send your check for the 11% fed excise tax when you put together your complete rifle.........

[tenpercentfirearms]

Plus don't forget to send your check for the 11% fed excise tax when you put together your complete rifle.........That is why I don't put together complete rifles then sell them. I do sell stripped lowers and then later after that customers will bring their lowers and other parts in and ask me to perform "gunsmith" duties and assemble them for them. :D

[artherd]

I don't have the e-mail handy, but the BOE told me I have to collect the tax on guns I transfer unless the person can produce a receipt showing they already paid the tax. I don't agree with it, but that is what they said. It isn't like I am pocketing your tax money anyway, I have to pay it right back to the state. This issue is so clouded that half of the people do it an half of the people don't. I can tell you and I will show you later tonight, the BOE is claiming we have to.
Wes, you get this in writing?

[bwiese]

I don't have the e-mail handy, but the BOE told me I have to collect the tax on guns I transfer unless the person can produce a receipt showing they already paid the tax. I don't agree with it, but that is what they said. It isn't like I am pocketing your tax money anyway, I have to pay it right back to the state. This issue is so clouded that half of the people do it an half of the people don't. I can tell you and I will show you later tonight, the BOE is claiming we have to.

Yes, any FFL dealer not charging sales tax on guns brought into the state is stupid.

Since the gun can't be sold directly to the individual, it must run thru the dealer and the dealer is the 'nexus' of the transaction. It in fact is recorded in his book as being part of his inventory. It does not matter that you paid the out of state seller directly; that would be considered immaterial for tax matters and an artifice if used to defend not charging tax on such purchases.

PPT face-to-face tranfers may be able to be considered differently - I don't think those truly go into inventory (??), and the FFL is just providing a service.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Yes I have it in writing. A private party transfer is between to private parties, so I don't charge tax on them.

[kantstudien]

Wow, first DOJ now BOE. What price are you "supposed" to charge tax on? What the transferee actually paid, or what the MSRP is? What if the gun is a beat up, rusted, POS that would have a high MSRP if it were new, but the person paid $50 on Gunbroker for? What if the transferee refuses to tell you what he paid for it, and simply says it was free?

[kantstudien]

PPT face-to-face tranfers may be able to be considered differently - I don't think those truly go into inventory (??), and the FFL is just providing a service.

PPTs absolutely go into the bound book inventory. Any gun that is left with the FFL is supposed to be immediately logged into the inventory, even if it is going to be shipped back to the seller the very next day. Consignment sales, etc. are all logged in.

[bwiese]

Wow, first DOJ now BOE. What price are you "supposed" to charge tax on? What the transferee actually paid, or what the MSRP is? What if the gun is a beat up, rusted, POS that would have a high MSRP if it were new, but the person paid $50 on Gunbroker for? What if the transferee refuses to tell you what he paid for it, and simply says it was free?


If a dealer over a long period of time didn't pay tax on out of state guns sold as 'transfers', the BOE would likely use estimated values if dealer failed audit. These could be way off, but it'd be the dealer's job to fight this.

A dealer not charging tax over, say, a decade, could result in huge penalties and back taxes and interest.

[kantstudien]

And people wonder why so many dealers flat out refuse to do out of state transfer?

[tenpercentfirearms]

I just ask the guy what he paid for it. Most people are honest and if they aren't, they can explain it to the BOE.

[bwiese]

I just ask the guy what he paid for it. Most people are honest and if they aren't, they can explain it to the BOE.

Yes, but _you_ should charge a 'rational' tax. If you see someone buying an S&W 629 for $20 you should still charge tax on something around $400ish. Things have to be 'reasonable'.

Any gun dealer selling off-list lowers should also have his dealer tax matters in shape.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Hey, I can't dictate what other people sell their guns for. If they want to sell them for $20, let them. What business of mine is that? Let them go investigate someone else, I did my job. :D

I have never had a problem with this.

[wrs916]

Well I am not going to be anything less than 110% blunt.

First of all what that specific customer did in your store was unacceptable and he should have been escorted out of your place of business by law enforcement. There's absolutely no call for pulling a BS stunt like that EVER!

Everytime I read something of legal interest on this site I always seem to come to the realization that within the near future firearms and ammunition in general will be hard to come by in California. We need more people to join organizations like the NRA and support your local gunsmiths/gun shops by patronizing their businesses. People like Debra Ortiz, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein think that they are some sort of gun guru's that wrote the bible on weaponry. These people are nothing more than bleeding hearted liberalistic hipocrates that love to live by the "Hilteristic" approach to life with the "Do as I say and not as I do" way of things. In particular, Diane Feinstein stands firmly on a wall against firearms in general yet the hipocritical Nazi that she is finds it acceptable to have a CCW (She's had one since the 70's). If this type of crap continues to occur we as legal, responsible firearms owners will be up a creek with no paddles in sight.

Bottom line is, criminals DO NOT buy weapons from gun dealers LEGALLY. They obtain ****ty & mediocre weapons from blackmarket dealers on the street and by stealing from us the law abiding folks. Taking away firearms from law abiding citizens will only result in further crime against persons and property. Statistics have proven time and time again that a properly trained and armed population results in a lower violent crime rate, but what the hell do we know.

[tcrpe]

. . . the Santa Fe midget . . . . . The midget . . . . The midget . . . .the midget . . . . the midget . . . the Santa Fe midget . . .


Midget?

Midget?

Did I miss something?

[artherd]

Yes I have it in writing. A private party transfer is between to private parties, so I don't charge tax on them.
Very interesting, you have in writing the BOE directing a business entity to collect *AND REMIT* USE TAX (as opposed to SALES TAX) directly to the state on something that business never exchanged funds for?

Weird as hell, and probally not correct. You guys think firearm law is so complex as to be uninteligible, the tax code is a nightmare.

[xenophobe]

On an FFL to FFL transfer where the customer has purchased the item online/phone/mail, the dealer may, but is not required to collect sales tax.

If the dealer does not collect the tax, the buyer IS supposed to report the purchase on his State Income Tax form and pay the appropriate amount of tax on his form.

At least that is how it was explained to me at work.

[the_quark]

Hey, I can't dictate what other people sell their guns for. If they want to sell them for $20, let them. What business of mine is that? Let them go investigate someone else, I did my job. :D

I have never had a problem with this.

I don't deal with gun sales in my business, but I know a little about collecting sales tax, and the advice I give my clients (who are, themselves, merchants) is that you make a "good faith" effort to collect tax. For example, if you're in California, and making an Internet-only transaction (no physical goods shipped) to a person also in California, and he lies and says he's from Nevada in order to get out of you collecting sales taxes, you don't have to go to any great lengths to discover his dishonesty because you made a good faith effort to collect the tax.

I'd also imagine that, if you have someone who says "I got a smokin' deal on this USP, I paid $50 for it from out of state," you collect the 8.5% (or whatever it is in your county) on $50, and you've made your good-faith effort to collect.

As always, of course, if there is a pattern of undercollecting ("Hmm, Mr. Smith, every gun that came through your store sold for $50?") then I bet you'll have a lot of trouble showing good faith. But, at least based on what I know, if I owned a gun store, I'd not lose too much sleep about whether I was getting exactly the right prices from my customers on out-of-state transfers, as long as there wasn't an obvious pattern of underreporting.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Rather than continue this thread hijack, the question of sales tax has been moved to a new thread. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=301955#post301955 Sorry for the temporarily rude behavior.