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ertert
09-22-2010, 11:36 AM
I'm new here and this has probably been asked but can't find anything.
Can a convicted felon in CA own black powder rifle/pistol?

dantodd
09-22-2010, 11:46 AM
My understanding is no, they may not possess. I believe there is some distinction in the law regarding non-cartridge BP not being a firearm unless loaded but that the felon in possession law is written differently to incorporate anything that is "capable" of firing a projectile.

stitchnicklas
09-22-2010, 12:08 PM
no....period. unless your gun rights were restored

ke6guj
09-22-2010, 12:17 PM
answered in your other thread:

nope.

12021. (a)(1) Any person who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of the United States, of the State of California, or any other state, government, or country, or of an offense enumerated in subdivision (a), (b), or (d) of Section 12001.6, or who is addicted to the use of any narcotic drug, who owns, purchases, receives, or has in his or her possession or under his or her custody or control any firearm is guilty of a felony.


and the definition of a firearm is:

12001(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.


(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

muzzleloaders are considered firearms in CA, with exemptions for certain portions of the PC. But there is no exemption fo "felon in possession of an antique firearm"

ELittle
09-22-2010, 1:23 PM
I just called the Department of Justice Firearms Division today and was informed by them that the state of California does not consider muzzle loaders firearms.

They specifically told me to consult with a criminal attorney to get specifics as they can not give legal advice, so I have a call in to a criminal attorney to get specifics as to whether or not a felon can possess a black powder muzzle loader.

I have been researching this a lot online and it seems like half of people say its not ok and half of the people say its ok so I'm going to invest some time and lawyers fees into this to get a definitive answer.

CSACANNONEER
09-22-2010, 1:46 PM
I called DOJ about this back when they would actually give their opinion. The bottom line is that a felon can not be in possession of a BP arm. BTW, once it is loaded, it is considered a firearm under California law.

Anyway, this is a shame because I wanted to get a felon into reenacting. It would have been good clean fun for him and his family. But, it's not worth the risk.

dantodd
09-22-2010, 2:08 PM
I just called the Department of Justice Firearms Division today and was informed by them that the state of California does not consider muzzle loaders firearms.

"Firearm" has different meanings under different sections. Do not EVER rely on legal interpretations by DOJ phone staff.

They specifically told me to consult with a criminal attorney to get specifics as they can not give legal advice, so I have a call in to a criminal attorney to get specifics as to whether or not a felon can possess a black powder muzzle loader.

I have been researching this a lot online and it seems like half of people say its not ok and half of the people say its ok so I'm going to invest some time and lawyers fees into this to get a definitive answer.

Jack's post above is pretty clear.

for all 12000 series laws (which includes 12021(a), felon in possession.)

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver,...

(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.

Now, unless you can find a way that your black powder rifle isn't "designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile..." felons are not allowed to possess.

ELittle
09-22-2010, 2:58 PM
I don't doubt what you're all saying, but I'd still like to talk to a lawyer to get a legal opinion on it. It will help me dissolve an argument I have with someone. :D

Beelzy
09-22-2010, 6:08 PM
It doesn't matter......a firearm is a firearm, even if it's a potato gun.

DOJ doesn't know what their talking about saying a BP firearm isn't a "firearm". (Big surprise) :rolleyes:

dantodd
09-22-2010, 6:18 PM
It doesn't matter......a firearm is a firearm, even if it's a potato gun.

DOJ doesn't know what their talking about saying a BP firearm isn't a "firearm". (Big surprise) :rolleyes:

Someone posted a letter not too long ago from either BoF or ATF stating that potato guns are specifically NOT firearms.

Beelzy
09-22-2010, 6:31 PM
Someone posted a letter not too long ago from either BoF or ATF stating that potato guns are specifically NOT firearms.

Well I'll be!.......even for a Felon?

ke6guj
09-22-2010, 9:28 PM
Someone posted a letter not too long ago from either BoF or ATF stating that potato guns are specifically NOT firearms.correct. A potato gun is not normally a "device designed to be used as a weapon" so it is not considered a firearm. Now, if you are caught shooting people with your potato gun, they will probably consider that specific potato gun to be a weapon.

Librarian
09-23-2010, 8:33 AM
They specifically told me to consult with a criminal attorney to get specifics as they can not give legal advice, so I have a call in to a criminal attorney to get specifics as to whether or not a felon can possess a black powder muzzle loader.

I have been researching this a lot online and it seems like half of people say its not ok and half of the people say its ok so I'm going to invest some time and lawyers fees into this to get a definitive answer.
That's probably a good idea - what do we internet yahoos know, anyway?

However, if your lawyer gives a different answer from Jack's (ke6guj) I'd honestly advise finding a new lawyer.

JSilvoso
09-23-2010, 9:46 AM
I don't doubt what you're all saying, but I'd still like to talk to a lawyer to get a legal opinion on it. It will help me dissolve an argument I have with someone. :D

Hi, I'm a lawyer.

And no, a felon cannot possess black powder firearms. The above analysis is correct. Under 12001, a black powder firearm still counts as a "firearm" for most sections of the California Penal Code, this includes 12021(a), which prohibits an individual convicted of a felony from possessing firearms.

ELittle
09-23-2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I never said anyone was a yahoo, but for a lot of things you can't rely on what someone says online. You never know who they are or if they know what they're talking about. I could be a 90 year old woman or a 10 year old kid. :D

Thanks for the advice, I was pretty sure it was considered a firearm but it never hurts to investigate a little bit.

winnre
09-23-2010, 10:37 AM
Next step - to see if you can have the felony reduced to a misdemeanor and get your gun rights back!

Librarian
09-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I never said anyone was a yahoo, but for a lot of things you can't rely on what someone says online. You never know who they are or if they know what they're talking about. I could be a 90 year old woman or a 10 year old kid. :D

Thanks for the advice, I was pretty sure it was considered a firearm but it never hurts to investigate a little bit.

I'm a yahoo, and proud of it!

Happens I had a lot of time and became a decently-educated yahoo, but there's no way to evaluate that quickly, so skepticism is appropriate.

MP301
09-23-2010, 11:18 PM
Hi, I'm a lawyer.

And no, a felon cannot possess black powder firearms. The above analysis is correct. Under 12001, a black powder firearm still counts as a "firearm" for most sections of the California Penal Code, this includes 12021(a), which prohibits an individual convicted of a felony from possessing firearms.

JSilvoso, now you have gone and made lawyers look good! See, this is why I love Calguns. The OP asks a legal question and a real bonofide lawyer...working for a well respected gun rights type legal firm...saves the OP time and money by answering this question here...

Many thansk for your participation here on CGN sir!

Spartan
09-24-2010, 10:08 AM
Next step - to see if you can have the felony reduced to a misdemeanor and get your gun rights back!

Or find a state where he can have bp guns.

CHS
09-24-2010, 7:59 PM
Or find a state where he can have bp guns.

Pretty sure BP guns are considered firearms for the purposes of preventing felons from possessing firearms. I'm not sure it's legal in ANY state.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-25-2010, 11:10 AM
Pretty sure BP guns are considered firearms for the purposes of preventing felons from possessing firearms. I'm not sure it's legal in ANY state.

There is no Federal restriction on felons possessing or using "antique firearms". But you might be correct that the other 49 States have prohibitions similar to California's.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2005-02.pdf

...Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition, including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively. Such persons may possess ammunition for antique firearms such as percussion caps, minie balls, and 50 pounds or less of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes.

Antique firearms are still subject to whatever State laws and local ordinances may apply.

Notice thought that for antique cartridge firearms, like a Mosin-Nagant made in 1898, Federal law prohibits a felon from possessing ammunition for the gun. Muzzle loaders are fine as long as they aren't the kind that use modern shotgun primers.

CHS
09-25-2010, 3:42 PM
Notice thought that for antique cartridge firearms, like a Mosin-Nagant made in 1898, Federal law prohibits a felon from possessing ammunition for the gun. Muzzle loaders are fine as long as they aren't the kind that use modern shotgun primers.

That's actually very surprising to me.

We'll call it the "Black Powder loophole" when challenging some of these absurd laws in court :)

Spartan
09-27-2010, 10:39 AM
Pretty sure BP guns are considered firearms for the purposes of preventing felons from possessing firearms. I'm not sure it's legal in ANY state.

Take a look at Texas...

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/means/