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supdawg
05-19-2006, 12:41 PM
So exactly what does this mean? In the case of an SBR AR upper, like a 7.5, 10.5 or 14.5", does this mean that no one will ship them to California? Or does this mean you have to register it or do some paperwork on it? I understand it's illegal to attach it to a lower, but is it illegal to bring it into California? I thought uppers were an unregulated item.

Stanze
05-19-2006, 12:49 PM
The National Firearms Act



Since 1934 the Federal Government has regulated the ownership of machine guns and several other types of weapons.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 provides for the registration, and the taxing of the transfer, of a class of weapons described as NFA Title 2 weapons (sometimes referred to as "Class 3 weapons"). These include machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers (also known as suppressors) and also a class of weapons known as "Any Other Weapon" (AOW). An example of an AOW is, but not limited to, a smooth barreled pistol or a short barreled combination gun.

The transfer tax on machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, and suppressors is $200. The transfer tax on AOWs is $5. This transfer tax is a one time only tax and not an annual tax. Each time an NFA weapon changes hands, the tax is charged.

The paperwork required for the transfer of an NFA weapon consists of an application form with the applicant's photograph attached and a fingerprint card. These are submitted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in duplicate along with the transfer tax. The finger print cards are forwarded to the FBI for a background check; not very different from a background check that would be performed for a "Secret Level" security clearance. The background check and transfer process takes about 3 months or so depending on the examiners’ work load.

One copy of the approved application is sent back to the dealer (or seller of the weapon). The dealer contacts the buyer and makes the physical transfer of the weapon at that time. The approved application stays with the weapon and is proof that the buyer has paid the transfer tax. The original should be stored in a safe place and a photocopy carried with the weapon should the legality of the NFA weapon be questioned by law enforcement officers.

The new manufacture of machine guns or the conversion of semi auto weapons to full auto weapons that are transferable to individuals has been prohibited since May 19, 1986. This means that all transferable machine guns that are available for sale to the general public must have been manufactured and registered prior to May 19, 1986.


Copy and pasted from:

http://www.gunrunner.com/NFA.html


I you can order whatever upper you want, but you can't legally put it on a rifle in CA if it's barrel is less than 16". Replacement parts for preban and "AW" registered AR pistols are ok.

You can also legally build a non-listed AR pistol if someone moves into the state with a stripped AR pistol lower and sells it to you.

Anyone know chime in on legalites of single shot AR pistols? What receiver to use? Can a DPMS stripped lower be DROSed as a single shot pistol?

EBWhite
05-19-2006, 12:50 PM
it means you cannot put a short upper (under 16") on a non- registered NFA gun.

xLusi0n
05-19-2006, 4:37 PM
YES you can order it and have it shipped to your house.

NO you can not own it if you own an AR-15 lower.

Construtive posession rules apply.

EBWhite
05-19-2006, 5:32 PM
Yes, you can own it. Constructive posession is BS and without proof of the items being put together or attached in some way (ie. same box or room) you will get off the any charges.

If own are lucky to own an AR pistol lower, construction pos. goes right out the door too.

Stanze
05-19-2006, 5:38 PM
YES you can order it and have it shipped to your house.

NO you can not own it if you own an AR-15 lower.

Construtive posession rules apply.

Maybe you're refering to the drop-in auto sears? Or, M-16 fire-control parts? I think the A.T.F. and LE on down would take issue with what you described.

I'm not completely brushed up on my NFA.

xenophobe
05-19-2006, 6:19 PM
Yes, you can own it. Constructive posession is BS and without proof of the items being put together or attached in some way (ie. same box or room) you will get off the any charges.

If own are lucky to own an AR pistol lower, construction pos. goes right out the door too.

Giving out bad advice AGAIN.... :rolleyes: You really should keep your mouth SHUT when you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Geez....

California does not have any constructive possession clause for AWs, but Federal law has constructive possession laws regarding almost all NFA weapons. The posession of M-16 fire control group and owning an AR-15=Machine Gun. Owing a M203 receiver (they dros as a rifle) and owning a 40mm rifled barrel (both are not restricted individually)=Destructive Device. Owning a Remington 870 <18" barrel is perfectly legal, unless you own an 870. Then you're breaking federal law unless it's registered as a AOW. Owning a tube that will fit a threaded barrel, owning baffles and and endcap, even if there has been no attempt to assemble them, you own an unregistered silencer and are breaking the law. None of these circumstances require that you have assembled these. You don't even have to have attempted it, just owning the combination of parts is illegal.

If you own a <16" upper and you own a non-SBR rifle that it could fit on, you are guilty of owning a unregistered SBR and are committing a federal offense, a felony. You will face charges if caught, and you will lose.

The only exception would be if you owned an AR pistol, but if that short barrelled upper has a handguard, you're F'd if you don't have that pistol registered as an AOW.

EBWhite
05-19-2006, 7:53 PM
Giving out bad advice AGAIN.... :rolleyes: You really should keep your mouth SHUT when you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Geez....

California does not have any constructive possession clause for AWs, but Federal law has constructive possession laws regarding almost all NFA weapons. The posession of M-16 fire control group and owning an AR-15=Machine Gun. Owing a M203 receiver (they dros as a rifle) and owning a 40mm rifled barrel (both are not restricted individually)=Destructive Device. Owning a Remington 870 <18" barrel is perfectly legal, unless you own an 870. Then you're breaking federal law unless it's registered as a AOW. Owning a tube that will fit a threaded barrel, owning baffles and and endcap, even if there has been no attempt to assemble them, you own an unregistered silencer and are breaking the law. None of these circumstances require that you have assembled these. You don't even have to have attempted it, just owning the combination of parts is illegal.

If you own a <16" upper and you own a non-SBR rifle that it could fit on, you are guilty of owning a unregistered SBR and are committing a federal offense, a felony. You will face charges if caught, and you will lose.

The only exception would be if you owned an AR pistol, but if that short barrelled upper has a handguard, you're F'd if you don't have that pistol registered as an AOW.

You are a close second to OhSmiley here as being the winner of the whiner award. You are disrespectful (I give you info on where to find a SW rifle and you make a profit then turn around and treat me like crap every chance you get), rude, cocky, and think your word is gold.

Well, once again you are wrong. If you have a registered pistol lower (yes, only the manufact. books needs to specify it being a pistol- you were wrong on that too) then you will never get in trouble on a NFA Con. poss. charge. Regular handgaurds do NOT make a firearm an AOW either- only a front pistol grip does! -1 for Xeno!

Lets say you buy a parts kit for an AK and it comes with the sear stuff- are you going to jail as you state on a federal charge?- NO. The sear hole has not been drilled in the receiver, and as long as you don't tape of attach the damn thing the BS charge would never stick in court.

Again, I'm not always right just as nobody is....but i'm not a scared person like you and says OMG you can only do it this way.

xenophobe
05-19-2006, 8:30 PM
Telling people that it's okay to do something that could be punishable with a fine up to a $250,000 and 10 years in a Federal Penitentary is cocky, grossly negligent and stupid beyond the most absurd interpretation of the word.

FACT: You can be prosecuted for just possessing all of the parts to convert a rifle to a machine gun if you own that particular rifle, regardless of any attempt to try converting it.

FACT: Owning a <16" rifle upper or <18" shotgun barrel is completely fine UNLESS you own that particular weapon. IF you own the weapon the upper or barrel is designed for, you do not even have to have them in the same room. If you are in possession of BOTH of those items, you can be prosecuted for violating NFA law.

I'm NOT scared, I'm scolding your immature and uninformed belief that "if you got balls you can do whatever you want and get away with it" while someone who might mistakenly take your advice get caught and have their right to vote and own firearms taken away, face massive fines and jail time.

artherd
05-19-2006, 9:00 PM
I have heard that the Feds do prosecute (successfully) constructive posession of machinegun cases. I don't have any direct knowlege of true case law or convictions (plea-out does not count.) and would like some.

shopkeep
05-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Guys I wouldn't even touch this stuff. Off-list recievers and rifles are already pushing the envelope in California. Why push your luck and take it to the next level by building up or purchasing a short barrel upper? At $250,000 and 10 years in a federal penetentiary that's close to 1 year per inch of the barrel :eek: !!! Talk about a costly mistake!

xenophobe
05-19-2006, 10:15 PM
I have heard that the Feds do prosecute (successfully) constructive posession of machinegun cases. I don't have any direct knowlege of true case law or convictions (plea-out does not count.) and would like some.

A man was sitting at home drunk and shot some .40 S&W's at a poster of a wolf. They went through his walls and his neighbors surprised, they called the police. He was drunk, staggered outside to see what it was about. Police arrived, saw he was drunk and acting crazy, brought him into the house, found he had an Colt AR-15 and a bunch of ammo in the basement. A quick search of the place and they found an M16 bolt, M16 bolt carrier, M16 trigger, M16 sear, M16 disconnector in a filing cabinet in another room upstairs. There was NO attempt to convert his AR-15 into a machine gun. He was convicted of 'constructive possession' of a machine gun:

http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2004/01/02-1276.htm

-hanko
05-19-2006, 10:21 PM
Owning a Remington 870 <18" barrel is perfectly legal, unless you own an 870. Then you're breaking federal law unless it's registered as a AOW.
I believe it's registered as an aow if it originally came from the factory with a pistol grip. It's an sbs if it were made with a butt stock. AOW's transfer with a $5 stamp, sbs's with a $200 stamp. My Rem 'witness protection' gun is an aow...short barrel, butt stock chopped about 5-6" aft of the receiver.;)

AOW/sbs/sbr/supressor/etc. issues on this thread are moot, given prk's restriction of Title II weapons. The constructive posession discussion might have practical applications in the prk.

Calguns is great until ego's overcome good discussion...:D

-hanko

chris
05-19-2006, 10:55 PM
i have been to NFA forum and discussed the SBR issue. i figure that these are people who have dealt with the NFA and the process of getting it done. since i have an SBR but i'm not in the country at present. by welding a muzzle brake to make the barrel 16" you will not have to worry about NFA at all. this is the solution to this. yeah it may look funny if you have a barrel that is 11" or less, but 14.5 it will be allright.

yes NFA is very serious indeed but when you find out the solution to it there are no problems. i will be doing this to my upper when i return really fast. shopping for a cool looking brake as we speak.

xenophobe
05-20-2006, 1:00 PM
More discussion of barrels under 16":

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33780

ADDITUDE
10-25-2007, 8:52 AM
Everyone needs to remember that even defending yourself against such an allegation, even if you are right and can win in court would probably be the single most expensive disposition of your finances that you will ever make in your entire life.

Don't expect it to cost you less that $50,000 to be "Right".....and much much more if you are "Wrong".

Play it safe. Don't push the envelope and if you don't know for sure or want to know for sure, call the ATF Office in your area....ask the questions and get it in writing.

Don't take an ATF's employees word over phone either. You have so much to loose that you'd be irresponsible to protect yourself.

ohsmily
10-25-2007, 9:13 AM
Everyone needs to remember that even defending yourself against such an allegation, even if you are right and can win in court would probably be the single most expensive disposition of your finances that you will ever make in your entire life.

Don't expect it to cost you less that $50,000 to be "Right".....and much much more if you are "Wrong".

Play it safe. Don't push the envelope and if you don't know for sure or want to know for sure, call the ATF Office in your area....ask the questions and get it in writing.

Don't take an ATF's employees word over phone either. You have so much to loose that you'd be irresponsible to protect yourself.


Good first post (sarcasm). You revived a thread that is almost 1.5 years old... :rolleyes:

P.S. it is "lose" not "loose"

m24armorer
10-25-2007, 9:28 AM
I agree with Xeno, and he made a good point with this.

(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to
fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.

Lot of folks miss it. Also if you put a forward grip instead of a shroud on a pistol you have just gone to NFA AOW.

aplinker
10-25-2007, 3:06 PM
ZOMBIE THREAD

How funny...

No offense to anyone... I like ohsmily, but I think this is funny... 1.5yr prediction in the same thread :D

You are a close second to OhSmiley here as being the winner of the whiner award. You are disrespectful (I give you info on where to find a SW rifle and you make a profit then turn around and treat me like crap every chance you get), rude, cocky, and think your word is gold.

Good first post (sarcasm). You revived a thread that is almost 1.5 years old... :rolleyes:

P.S. it is "lose" not "loose"

ADDITUDE
10-26-2007, 1:21 AM
Geeze,

Where does the time go anyway....it seems like it was just yesterday....

Sorry for raising the dead....

I know to look at the thread date and I didn't....ummm and spell lose and didn't do that either....

I guess I thought I had something important to contribute and was in to big a hurry.

Y'all take care. I'm going to bookmark this site.