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Dump1567
05-18-2006, 6:40 PM
So, since the DOJ would rather have us have a detachable mag instead of a pistol grip, lets see some designs. They're kind enough to tell all the LEO agencies for us that AR/AK's are legal without features:) . This saves us from trying to get the word out ourselves (since local LEO would probably be the one enforcing any laws). Now, we just need to develop a legal stock for these featureless rifles. My feeling is something that covers the tube and attaches to the back of the tube and the PG area. It also looks like http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/ is willing to work something up for us (based on this thread) http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34022&page=3.

Here's a few ideas I had. Let's see yours.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/UGLY2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/UGLY3.jpg

Maybe an add-on piece for the excellent Mag-pul stock.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/MagPulStock2.jpg

AxonGap
05-18-2006, 7:00 PM
Designed this about a month ago. Pretty similar to your design. The hand rest portion is detachable. If it looks a little too pistol-gripish, the back part of the hand rest can be extended toward the back to fill the gap. I'm going to create a model of it this weekend (hopefully).

shopkeep
05-18-2006, 7:14 PM
Just wanted to let you know that the DOJ will at best tell you "it is up to the DA to interpret whether that grip is a PG".

Also wanted to say: Your grip is good to go Axon, it is NOT a pistol grip. It's also the most attractive substitute I've seen yet.

AxonGap
05-18-2006, 7:24 PM
Just wanted to let you know that the DOJ will at best tell you "it is up to the DA to interpret whether that grip is a PG".

Also wanted to say: Your grip is good to go Axon, it is NOT a pistol grip. It's also the most attractive substitute I've seen yet.
I appreciate it shopkeep! I'm trying to keep it minimally invasive to the design of the firearm and ergonomic to the shooters wrist. more like a traditional rifle stock. Going for the "ape-grasp" approach since we (firearm enthusiasts) are all apes in the eyes of the anti-gun lobby!

shopkeep
05-18-2006, 7:31 PM
I appreciate it shopkeep! I'm trying to keep it minimally invasive to the design of the firearm and ergonomic to the shooters wrist. more like a traditional rifle stock. Going for the "ape-grasp" approach since we (firearm enthusiasts) are all apes in the eyes of the anti-gun lobby!

Please note that there are some of us with larger hands who are using SRBs and other devices to hold the spring in and then gripping the rifle by holding the A2 buttstock. Your design is nice because those of us with larger hands may continue to grip the rifle using this method but the lower hand support makes this grasp much more ergonomic.

Also I'm gonna have to give you two thumbs for comming up with the most attractive grip substitute we've seen on here yet.

Stanze
05-18-2006, 10:21 PM
Count me in as someone who likes to wrap my thumb around the top of the stock and has hands big enough to do it.

I improvised this twist on the improvised cheek rest,...the tape and razor blade handle finger rest.

I just cut off a curved disposable razor blade handle and used gaffers(less gunky adhesive duct tape) tape as needed.

Felt more like a traditional rifle to me after this mod.:)

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9228/razorgrip8nw.jpg

I bought the razors at Wal-Mart if anyone wants to try this.

The three bladed design also shaves GREAT!:p

adamsreeftank
05-19-2006, 12:22 AM
Count me in as someone who likes to wrap my thumb around the top of the stock and has hands big enough to do it.

I improvised this twist on the improvised cheek rest,...the tape and razor blade handle finger rest.

I just cut off a curved disposable razor blade handle and used gaffers(less gunky adhesive duct tape) tape as needed.



Where'd you get the gaffers tape?

aklover_91
05-19-2006, 12:39 AM
if you make a test model, tell us how it feels. If its not too uncomfortable, it'd be the coolest CAAR thing in a while.

paradox
05-19-2006, 5:17 AM
Designed this about a month ago. Pretty similar to your design. The hand rest portion is detachable. If it looks a little too pistol-gripish, the back part of the hand rest can be extended toward the back to fill the gap. I'm going to create a model of it this weekend (hopefully).

The only problem I see is that it is attached to the stock and has a thumb shelf. Ignoramus will probably say that falls under a thumbhole stock definition.

Wulf
05-19-2006, 6:03 AM
I puttogether a mock up of a grip/stock that I think is VERY workable; far more usable than any of the tumor'esque stocks I've seen. A couple months ago I emailed the idea and a couple photos to JP Rifles cause I think, for a good technical reason, that JP would be the best outfit to execute the idea. I'll email them once more to see if they've considered it but if I dont get a response I'll post the idea here.

Stanze
05-19-2006, 6:11 AM
Where'd you get the gaffers tape?

My wife is a A/V tech(read: roadie), leftover roll from a gig.:cool:

DV8
05-19-2006, 6:11 AM
Count me in as someone who likes to wrap my thumb around the top of the stock and has hands big enough to do it.

I improvised this twist on the improvised cheek rest,...the tape and razor blade handle finger rest.

I just cut off a curved disposable razor blade handle and used gaffers(less gunky adhesive duct tape) tape as needed.

Felt more like a traditional rifle to me after this mod.:)

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9228/razorgrip8nw.jpg

I bought the razors at Wal-Mart if anyone wants to try this.

The three bladed design also shaves GREAT!:p


Its not the prettiest Stanze, but I admire your "MacGyverish" ingenuity...:)

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 6:22 AM
MacGyver!? That's who we need right now!

mow
05-19-2006, 6:43 AM
gaff tape rules! Nice idea:D

Stanze
05-19-2006, 7:33 AM
Its not the prettiest Stanze, but I admire your "MacGyverish" ingenuity...:)

Thanks for all the comments on my idea guys. I agree it's not the prettiest, but after I went "gripless" and flash hider-less I gave up trying to make my rifle pretty, it's now function over form.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9867/img7248medium4nm.jpg

I improvised the shoulder strap from my carrying case and applied gaffers tape as needed(silence the strap, protect the barrel threads). Fugly as hell, but 60 rounds on tap gets my mind off of that real fast.:eek:

I'm gonna buy a muzzle brake in the near future to tacti-cool it.

My wallet is cringing at the future ammo bil!.:eek:

Ironwood Designs
05-19-2006, 8:08 AM
Need more feedback guys.
I can put several hundred units on the market pretty quick, if I get enough OKs from you guys.




Thanks,
Matt
IWD

paradox
05-19-2006, 8:38 AM
Need more feedback guys.
I can put several hundred units on the market pretty quick, if I get enough OKs from you guys.




Thanks,
Matt
IWD


I would love someone to build something like the attached picture. Wood stock/grip combo with no ledges, indents or any other feature that Ignoramus could call a thumbhole or even useable by the thumb. And I'd like one for both the AR and AK.

ETA: I would buy the AK first. I have other ideas that would be lighter for the AR, but a wood stock like in the picture adapted to the AK would be the bee's knees. It's what I'll have to make for myself if you don't make them.

tygerpaw
05-19-2006, 8:43 AM
I would like to see something like the above too. I was dreaming up something like that, but I dont have the skills nor time to work on it.

Chaingun
05-19-2006, 8:49 AM
How about a thumbhole stock design with the web of the hand between the forefinger and thumb above the line?

This has to be legal since it's similar to drilling a hole in a standard mini14/m1a stock which is legal.

Attach a stock where the pistol grip attaches, keeping web of hand above line, and have it attach to the bolt carrier buffer.

paradox
05-19-2006, 9:19 AM
Remember that a "thumbhole stock" makes a rifle an assault weapon just as much as a pistol grip. If the stock and grip are integrated, you have to pay close attention to this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf
(e) “thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the
trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


Even a shelf could be construed to be a thumbhole stock, because the thumb rests deeper than the tip of the protrusion.

Chaingun
05-19-2006, 9:47 AM
Remember that a "thumbhole stock" makes a rifle an assault weapon just as much as a pistol grip. If the stock and grip are integrated, you have to pay close attention to this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf


Even a shelf could be construed to be a thumbhole stock, because the thumb rests deeper than the tip of the protrusion.

Isn't the thumbhole stock in reference to when the web is below the line.

You could also have a pistol grip above the line mounted off the the side with some linkage to the trigger.

shopkeep
05-19-2006, 10:11 AM
Need more feedback guys.
I can put several hundred units on the market pretty quick, if I get enough OKs from you guys.




Thanks,
Matt
IWD

Being that all that's out there is the SRB right now and it's been selling good since memo 2 I would highly advise you get into this market. There are many of us who would like an extra option in our off-list collection :)!

vonsmith
05-19-2006, 10:14 AM
Bad news. :eek: I just heard a rumor today that the DOJ is going to declare the Speed 3 razor a hazard to public safety. Everybody start buying your Speed 3 razors now before the 90 days registration period, but don't mount them on your rifle stocks pending the next DOJ memo. You've been warned! :mad:

Seriously though. I think you guys are on the right track here. The "cradle grip" design is not a pistol grip. I can't imagine how any normal humanoid could mistake it for a pistol grip. The real question here is ergonomics. It has to be comfortable and safe to shoot. It would be a bonus feature if the web of the hand could also be above the imaginary line.

Do you like the way I named this concept "cradle grip"? ;)


=vonsmith=

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 10:31 AM
Here are two more versions. One has a hole, but seperate grip (Ver. 4). The other is integrated into the stock but the thumb area has open space behind it and is not technically a hole. BTW, Note the yellow line and were the web would rest above the action! I threw the McMillan stock in for good measure. The angle of the hand rest would break the wrist's ability to grasp it "pistol-grip" style.

shopkeep
05-19-2006, 10:38 AM
Mod 4 would likely be considered a thumbhold stock. Although I'd read their definition of what "thumbhole stock" is to be sure.

Mod 4b is lawful in my opinion _BUT_ it could still be considered a thumbhole stock by a renegade DA.

Needless to say though, you have some AWESOME ideas and I would like very much to see prototypes. Just be sure you install the prototypes on a fixed mag rifle just in case.

BTW is anyone else having flashbacks to the M-1 Carbine stock that was in Planet of the Apes?

vonsmith
05-19-2006, 10:39 AM
AxonGap,
The mod 4 is a thumb hole. Sorry. :(

Could you make the other design a little less "thumby"? It shouldn't invoke the idea of evading the "thumb hole" issue.

Good work. :)


=vonsmith=

Ironwood Designs
05-19-2006, 11:00 AM
Paradox,
That design is totally doable. I already manufacture AR wood sets, and have the butt stock dialed in. It would simply be a matter of adding to the existing design, the grip portion. These would take more time to manufacture, as the amount of cutting time would be substantial. But once again, totally doable.

I'm not sure how DOJ would take it though due to the grip protrusion, even though it does not allow a grasp. But it looks like it might pass.

To the rest of the comments, no thumbholes will pass muster, none of them.
The idea is to stick to the thumbshelf on the side, and to not allow a grasp using the web of the thumb and firefinger. Anything that looks like a grip, despite the finger position, will probably not pass muster.

Remember, I already submitted a design that literally did not violate any of thte grip definitions, and yet it was denied.

Keep em coming.

Thanks,
Matt
IWD

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 11:51 AM
This was my original design but I was getting the usual "nope it's a pistol grip!". Same as previous versions w/o the "thumb-hole" idea. If the DOJ would frown on this they are in essence calling our OLL's AW's.

Any suggestions?

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 12:11 PM
Don't know if it's particularly "evil" looking but you get the picture! This one would go over like a bucket of bricks @ the DOJ even though it is compliant.
Thoughts?

Ironwood Designs
05-19-2006, 12:17 PM
Still a thumbhole on your last version.
And still too much like a grip on the previous 2.

Matt
IWD

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 12:20 PM
Still a thumbhole on your last version.
And still too much like a grip on the previous 2.

Matt
IWD
The last one was for the "yeah right!" effect. Per the other two, how are they like a grip even w/o thumb holes?

shopkeep
05-19-2006, 12:35 PM
Mod 5 looks to be compliant, it actually looks pretty sweet on the ACE stock too. Can we get a pic of an entire off-list rifle with the grip?

vonsmith
05-19-2006, 12:36 PM
The last one was for the "yeah right!" effect. Per the other two, how are they like a grip even w/o thumb holes?

I like both of your "friendly looking" designs in principle. I think a normal humanoid would find them legally exceptable. I would add a shelf for the thumb to rest on.


=vonsmith=

Dump1567
05-19-2006, 1:13 PM
I think we need to stay with a basic stock design. Something that looks like a shotgun style stock. Once something like that gets approved, we can start extending down on the curvature a little bit.

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 1:30 PM
Mod 5 looks to be compliant, it actually looks pretty sweet on the ACE stock too. Can we get a pic of an entire off-list rifle with the grip?

This is a photoshop edit of a Rock River Arms Standard AR-15 from the web site. The lower would of course be an OLL (not Rock River)!

Here are some crude pictures of my design. I call it the "CA-15 UgDuck". It's a Rock River Standard rifle upper "Californified" w/ a 10rd Bushy. One is w/ a standard A2 stock and the other w/ an Ace Skeleton stock.

Scope
05-19-2006, 2:25 PM
Below is an image of a stock idea that has been floating around in my head for the last few weeks. AxonGap, I hope you do not mind that I borrowed your picture.

Now I have never shot an AR15 and have not completed building mine, but it has been my understanding that the stock is for ergonomic purposes only, and does not affect the function of the rifle. If this is so, then I see no need for the stock to extend directly back from the attachment point at the back of the lower receiver. A shallow screw should be enough to secure it the lower receiver, along with the pistol grip screw.

What do you all think?

adamsreeftank
05-19-2006, 3:20 PM
This is a photoshop edit of a Rock River Arms Standard AR-15 from the web site. The lower would of course be an OLL (not Rock River)!

Here are some crude pictures of my design. I call it the "CA-15 UgDuck". It's a Rock River Standard rifle upper "Californified" w/ a 10rd Bushy. One is w/ a standard A2 stock and the other w/ an Ace Skeleton stock.

I like it.

AxonGap
05-19-2006, 3:23 PM
Below is an image of a stock idea that has been floating around in my head for the last few weeks. AxonGap, I hope you do not mind that I borrowed your picture.

Now I have never shot an AR15 and have not completed building mine, but it has been my understanding that the stock is for ergonomic purposes only, and does not affect the function of the rifle. If this is so, then I see no need for the stock to extend directly back from the attachment point at the back of the lower receiver. A shallow screw should be enough to secure it the lower receiver, along with the pistol grip screw.

What do you all think?
No prob on the use of my picture. Great idea! The problem we have w/ the AR design is the position of the buffer tube in correlation to the grip/trigger action. The buffer tube would bridge the top of the buttstock, possibly creating what would appear to be a thumb hole in the eyes of the DOJ. Great idea, keep modifying away.

No matter what we come up w/ they will probably shoot it down to reinforce there position on the OLL situation (another stall tactic). They have painted themselves into a corner on the OLL issue and the only way out is to either get dirty and make a mess or just stay put. I think they believe by staying put the paint will eventually dry up and they can walk away from it. Eventually they will need to address the law as written, and this paint is wetter then ever.

shopkeep
05-19-2006, 4:34 PM
Below is an image of a stock idea that has been floating around in my head for the last few weeks. AxonGap, I hope you do not mind that I borrowed your picture.

Now I have never shot an AR15 and have not completed building mine, but it has been my understanding that the stock is for ergonomic purposes only, and does not affect the function of the rifle. If this is so, then I see no need for the stock to extend directly back from the attachment point at the back of the lower receiver. A shallow screw should be enough to secure it the lower receiver, along with the pistol grip screw.

What do you all think?

Yours would only work on gas piston uppers. The buffer tube is housed inside the AR-15 buttstock because it's a gas impingement operated rifle.

Scope
05-19-2006, 5:09 PM
Yours would only work on gas piston uppers. The buffer tube is housed inside the AR-15 buttstock because it's a gas impingement operated rifle.

So my understanding was wrong, which completely craps all over my idea. Oh well. AxonGap, my vote goes for your v5a stock.

adamsreeftank
05-19-2006, 10:48 PM
So my understanding was wrong, which completely craps all over my idea. Oh well. AxonGap, my vote goes for your v5a stock.

Your design might work with something like this:
1247

I think it follows the letter of the law, but why would the DOJ approve of anything????

adamsreeftank
05-19-2006, 11:00 PM
Here's another. You still get the vertical grip angle, but the web of the hand would be over the evil yellow line of death and it doesn't attach to the stock, so it's not a thumbhole. You couldn't get your thumb over it, but it would allow you to use any existing stock.

1248

AxonGap
05-20-2006, 8:00 AM
I have an uncanny feeling that they will ignore or deny anything/everything that deals w/ an LOOLL (Legally Obtained Off List Lower). It's more in line w/ DOJ principal then working within the letter of the law. To say yes to any of these compliant designs would be an admission to the massive flaw/s in the AW weapons laws thus creating a legal domino effect. Vague, poorly written laws that challenge reason will eventually succumb to scrutiny and logic by the people it supposedly serves. Fact: Thousands of these lowers have flooded into this state & through the DROS process they have been accepted by the state as legal firearms. To deny the ability of an individual to use said firearm in a safe (stress, safe) manner that is within the letter of the law on the grounds of “principal” puts the DOJ in a difficult position.

If these truly are dangerous tools of assault that have no place in our society, why did the DOJ not stop this hemorrhage of justice a year ago? Law enforcement is only as good as the laws they uphold, it’s obvious what happens when that system breaks down. The DOJ is not our enemy; our enemy is poorly drafted laws that make it through legislature by politicians creating “smoke screens” for there lack of performance. “Hey look at me I’m actually doing something!” If they wanted to fight violent crime they would work with law enforcement not against it. Work w/ facts not feelings.

Sorry for the rant!

Dump1567
05-20-2006, 6:59 PM
How about modifying this Bell & Carlson design:

From this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock.jpg

To this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock2.jpg

After cutting off the inappropriate feature, what do you use to fill in the gap?

I figure just doing this would still be considered a PG:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock3.jpg

Dump1567
05-20-2006, 7:15 PM
And some would say this is legal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock4.jpg

But again, how do you fill in the hole? And would the hole have to have a permanet fill-in? There are ways to cover the hole that aren't permanet.;)

adamsreeftank
05-20-2006, 10:49 PM
And some would say this is legal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock4.jpg

But again, how do you fill in the hole? And would the hole have to have a permanet fill-in? There are ways to cover the hole that aren't permanet.;)

I would cut a piece of plywood to fit the hole. Screw into it through the grip and bottom, and then cover it with Bondo. After it was sanded and painted, you wouldn't know it was not original.

FluorideInMyWater
05-21-2006, 8:25 PM
i'm not sure if there is a definition for a pistol grip.....i'm sure there is one, but this design i would think would not constitute a "grip". this srb like object, in an of it self, and by itself, is not something "independantly" that can be gripped. it can only be gripped when it is used in conjunction with the lower receiver, where by creating the opportunity to grip the amalgum of the to, but independently, there is nothing to grip, yeah?

adamsreeftank
05-21-2006, 9:09 PM
i'm not sure if there is a definition for a pistol grip.....i'm sure there is one, but this design i would think would not constitute a "grip". this srb like object, in an of it self, and by itself, is not something "independantly" that can be gripped. it can only be gripped when it is used in conjunction with the lower receiver, where by creating the opportunity to grip the amalgum of the to, but independently, there is nothing to grip, yeah?

It looks OK to me, but what do I know.
It's funny the way you photochopped that picture of a Colt.

shopkeep
05-21-2006, 10:14 PM
That grip is lawful by the same logic as the Barret thumb grip: the rest of the fingers cannot grasp the grip.

AxonGap
05-22-2006, 5:35 AM
i'm not sure if there is a definition for a pistol grip.....i'm sure there is one, but this design i would think would not constitute a "grip". this srb like object, in an of it self, and by itself, is not something "independantly" that can be gripped. it can only be gripped when it is used in conjunction with the lower receiver, where by creating the opportunity to grip the amalgum of the to, but independently, there is nothing to grip, yeah?

It's all about the location of the hands web below the yellow line in conjunction w/ the trigger. Though the pistol grip itself has been removed, the leftover nub that creates a shelf behind the trigger allows a controllable purchase that violates the "web of the hand" portion of the no pistol grip part of the law (in the eyes of the DOJ). I believe the DOJ shot down a similar version by Shoeless Ventures (FAB-10 guys-see web site for FAB-10). Sounds and looks logical, but remember, we are dealing w/ an illogical law. If the web of the hand between the trigger finger and thumb rest below the line creating a pistol style grasp regardless of grip length the DOJ will usually poofoo it. I think they are trying to prevent the intended ergonomic shooting position of the hand that makes an AR function the way it was intended (pistol style). Great idea though!

Chaingun
05-22-2006, 7:39 AM
It's all about the location of the hands web below the yellow line in conjunction w/ the trigger. Though the pistol grip itself has been removed, the leftover nub that creates a shelf behind the trigger allows a controllable purchase that violates the "web of the hand" portion of the no pistol grip part of the law (in the eyes of the DOJ). I believe the DOJ shot down a similar version by Shoeless Ventures (FAB-10 guys-see web site for FAB-10). Sounds and looks logical, but remember, we are dealing w/ an illogical law. If the web of the hand between the trigger finger and thumb rest below the line creating a pistol style grasp regardless of grip length the DOJ will usually poofoo it. I think they are trying to prevent the intended ergonomic shooting position of the hand that makes an AR function the way it was intended (pistol style). Great idea though!

I'm not clear how they approved the Barrett thumb design but then knock down all these other designs including the current one. I still believe it was submitted to the wrong person (including Iggy). It must get submitted to the DOJ legal area using the Barrett submittal for the guideline format.

I was asked for but was unable to find the paperwork for the Barrett grip, which used to be on the web. Anyone have this paperwork?

drb45acp
05-28-2006, 11:51 PM
Here are my designs. Let me know what you think.

xenophobe
05-29-2006, 3:05 AM
Need more feedback guys.
I can put several hundred units on the market pretty quick, if I get enough OKs from you guys.

Cut my SG2000 stock! :p

KenpoProfessor
05-29-2006, 4:43 AM
Here is my design. Let me know what you think.

Out of all the ones I've seen, I like this one the best.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1321&d=1148889007


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Dump1567
05-29-2006, 8:32 AM
I've got money in hand, but no ones put anything on the market. I guess I'll have to make my own.

drb45acp
05-29-2006, 11:44 AM
Here are three stages of griplessness.

Evil Gun
05-29-2006, 12:00 PM
Here are three stages of griplessness.
The bottom example is the best out of the three. However, one thing I'd do is cut back a little where the thumb goes. It may look to much like a thumbhole stock. Smooth it out into the top of the stock and I think you'll be golden.

drb45acp
05-29-2006, 12:49 PM
How's this

Evil Gun
05-29-2006, 1:33 PM
How's this
Looks good. I wonder if it would be acceptable to the doj?

69Mach1
05-29-2006, 4:07 PM
Be carefull asking DOJ for their opinion on a "thumb hole", they may drop their pants.:D

TheMan
05-29-2006, 4:45 PM
Be carefull asking DOJ for their opinion on a "thumb hole", they may drop their pants.:D

ROFL!!

too funny

saki302
05-29-2006, 4:47 PM
But again, how do you fill in the hole? And would the hole have to have a permanet fill-in? There are ways to cover the hole that aren't permanet.;)

There is no requirement in the law that such a plug be permanent. Two nicely shaped blocks of wood secured on both sides by long wood screws and painted black should do just fine. The illegal act would be in removing the plug, which takes tools to do. Just as you could add an illegal PG anytime you liked using just a screwdriver- did you permanently alter the receiver to not be able to accept a PG? Didn't think so :)

I'm with the school of thought that the whole law is being misinterpreted and parts of what they say would easily be shot down in court. The law says 'conspicuously portruding pistol grip'. The web of hand thing only applies if it seems to be a pistol grip. A grip sawed down even with the trigger guard is hardly portruding at all, much less conspicuously, and not even the most left wing jury would be able to call it a pistol grip in the first place.

-Dave

blkA4alb
05-29-2006, 5:56 PM
drb45acp, I really like that first stock. You would have my money. One thing though, what about shortening the little "peak" at the top of the back of the stock. Just a little but more rounded over :) . The rest is very good.

AxonGap
05-30-2006, 6:03 AM
The best way to find out is to build it, submit it, come up w/ more ideas. Flood the DOJ w/ creative (legal) alternatives to this bonehead law and they will be forced to deal w/ the OLL situation. They are probably getting a few chuckles from our ideas now, but when the ideas start making ergonomic sense and the firearm becomes functional within the letter of the law they'll stop snickering.

~DEVO~
05-30-2006, 9:50 AM
What ever happened to that 23 pages of ideas concerning a Cali legal AR. I think the name of the Thread was called "RIFLE IDEA". Can anyone bump it so that some of these new ideas may be meshed with some of the previously visited CA-AR designs/ideas.:D

toolman9000
05-30-2006, 2:13 PM
What ever happened to that 23 pages of ideas concerning a Cali legal AR. I think the name of the Thread was called "RIFLE IDEA". Can anyone bump it so that some of these new ideas may be meshed with some of the previously visited CA-AR designs/ideas.:D



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=23107

I have yet to go back and read any of it, hope some of those great photoshopped pictures still work... good times.

-toolman9000

~DEVO~
05-30-2006, 3:22 PM
Thx toolman.

SvenFrost
05-30-2006, 8:41 PM
And some would say this is legal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock4.jpg

But again, how do you fill in the hole? And would the hole have to have a permanet fill-in? There are ways to cover the hole that aren't permanet.;)


I am convinced this works as it does not allow for a "pistol style grasp." Specifically, not all fingers can wrap around the grip and the web of the hand is required to be held on the side of the grip.

Can someone more knowledgeable please tell me why this stock is not compliant, presuming that no other evil features are included.

Best
-Sven

Fate
05-31-2006, 10:33 AM
http://i3.tinypic.com/119mflu.jpg

I like it. Well, not on the M16A1. But a mall ninja might be ok. LOL.

Dump1567
05-31-2006, 6:52 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock4.jpg
Based on how 978.20 defines a pistol grip & thumbhole stock, I also think this is legal. I just ordered one and will be transforming it into it's legal configuration. I'll also be keeping documention to prove it's legality based on the DOJ definitions.

blacklisted
05-31-2006, 7:36 PM
Part of me wants to scream in horror at the idea that people are actually using or planning on using such monstrosities.

However, the other part admires the creativity that goes into this. I'll probably be using a "thumb hook grip" which seems like it would be far more comfortable (and lighter).

Dump1567
05-31-2006, 7:51 PM
However, the other part admires the creativity that goes into this. I'll probably be using a "thumb hook grip" which seems like it would be far more comfortable (and lighter).

Is anyone selling these?

PonyFiveO
05-31-2006, 8:00 PM
Ok, trying to think out of the box. I call this one the BRASS KNUCKLE GRIP. I dont think this would be considered a pistol style grasp.

http://usera.imagecave.com/PonyFiveO/BrassKnuckleGrip.jpg

Here is an open finger version...

http://usera.imagecave.com/PonyFiveO/BrassKnuckleGrip2.jpg

blacklisted
05-31-2006, 8:05 PM
Is anyone selling these?

Not that I know of. I'd probably just make one.

TacFan
05-31-2006, 8:50 PM
Ok, trying to think out of the box. I call this one the BRASS KNUCKLE GRIP. I dont think this would be considered a pistol style grasp.

http://usera.imagecave.com/PonyFiveO/BrassKnuckleGrip.jpg

Here is an open finger version...

http://usera.imagecave.com/PonyFiveO/BrassKnuckleGrip2.jpg


that's a new one :D

AxonGap
05-31-2006, 9:16 PM
Dr. Seuss would be proud!

Stanze
05-31-2006, 10:00 PM
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9286/stanzetriggerstockthingy0xc.jpg

Back in the early days of Calguns, Mike Searson's Rifle Idea thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=23107) inspired the "Stanze Trigger":D Basically a new repositioned trigger, actuating the original trigger sorta like Bullpup stocks do, I don't know exactly what's involved, but it seems plausible. The red design would be the key "actuator" component(I fashioned a piece out of a coathanger a while back and tried it!), and a plastic cover can conceal the orginal trigger.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2134/stanzetriggerstockthingy28tx.jpg

~DEVO~
06-01-2006, 3:51 PM
Do some reverse engineering on this...
http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/mas/Mas.jpg
This rifle can shoot .308 rounds and does not have a buffer tube. :eek:

It uses a piston rod. Some one should design a cheap universal piston set-up.

drb45acp
06-03-2006, 4:47 PM
I think this grip meets all the criteria for legality. The web of the hand cannot go below the line and the grip does not at all protrude below the rifle. Let me know what you think.http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/BetterGrip6.jpg

Chaingun
06-03-2006, 5:32 PM
I think this grip meets all the criteria for legality. The web of the hand cannot go below the line and the grip does not at all protrude below the rifle. Let me know what you think.http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/BetterGrip6.jpg

Well I think it's a great design but still have this back of the mind worry about legality.

Jump in the water's great;) :D

]-|-[ GunBomB
06-03-2006, 6:32 PM
This idea has been in the back of my head for a long time, someone needs to produce this and get DOJ approval because it is perfectly legal. Call it, "sporterizing" a military rifle, or converting an assault weapon into a long rifle. That "coverted military sport rifle" should need to be registered in some way. The DOJ needs to seriously look into it. :)
This is the type of stuff we need to pool $$$$ together for, instead of fighting a losing battle. This neither violates the spirit or the letter of the law. Who here can produce a nice prototype, if funded, that could be a retail item? If anyone here could produce a quality working prototype for DOJ submittal and review, we would well on our way. And if they approved, our problems would be partly solved, because it could be worked, shaped, and customized to be very comfortable. This is just another target sport rifle for accurate, benchrest shooting.

Dump1567
06-03-2006, 6:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/BELLCARLSONthumbholestock4.jpg
Came today. Gave to my buddy to work his magic. He's basically going to fill in the hole with ACRAGLAS from Brownells. I'll post picks when I get it finished. Here's more on why I feel this is legal:
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/graphics/aw5.jpg

Although these firearms are centerfire, semi-automatic rifles capable of accepting detachable magazines, they do not have conspicuously protruding pistol grips because none of the grips allow for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

I also feel that if this quailifies as a pistol grip, than holding onto the front of the mag well and/or magazine while firing would be considered a foward pistol grip. This is because these two areas are held in a similar way (fingers wrapped around front).

drb45acp
06-03-2006, 7:01 PM
If this design is legal, then these are too. The CADOJ wants to intimidate us all into not building and using our legally purchased lowers. The J. Allen Ent. stock is legal and was designed by working with the CADOJ. We can produce a legal, good looking stock that allows us to enjoy our constitutional rights.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/a_SOCOM_-_LITE.jpg
This is the JAE-100 stock for the M1A. It is legal for sale in CA. Check out the link.

http://www.jallenenterprises.com/html/californiacompliant.htmlhttp://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/BetterGrip6.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/3CAlegaldesigns.jpg
These are my designs

PonyFiveO
06-03-2006, 8:02 PM
I like your design drb45acp. It looks like a version of mine from a thread originated a few months ago :D

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ZMcopy.jpg

Here is another variation of that...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ZM.jpg

Possible Legal Grip I posted a while back...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/LegalPistolGrip.jpg

PonyFiveO
06-03-2006, 8:33 PM
Here is my rendition if the ZM needed a buffer tube...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ZMwbuffertube.jpg
ZM with Buffer tube AND snap on cheep piece...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/ZMwbuffertubeandsnaponcheekpiece.jpg
And my rendition of a SU-16 chambered for 7.62x39 using AK mags, just for sh**s and giggles :D

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/ponyfiveo/SU16CA762x39ConceptSm.jpg

drb45acp
06-03-2006, 8:57 PM
Thanks PonyFiveO. I liked what you posted and tried to improve it. Now see if you like this new version based on the JAE-100 stock. I wonder if J. Allen Enterprises would be interested in producing an CA legal AR Stock. Here is how it might look.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/JAE-15.jpg



http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/a_SOCOM_-_LITE.jpg

The CA legal JAE-100 stock

PonyFiveO
06-03-2006, 9:18 PM
drb45acp, I think that would be pretty wicked looking if they were to produce something like that. I would be down for one. It certainly would not hurt to submit your design to them and see what they say. I would imagine that they may get a better response from the DOJ since they are a manufacturer? At best, we would have a decent looking CA legal stock! I will take mine in black please :D

]-|-[ GunBomB
06-04-2006, 10:21 AM
I think these new ideas are awesome and going in the proper direction. I am willing to pay $200+ to get a Kali DOJ approved, thumbrest/stock part. It will still be probably be over $100k to get this item from prototype to retail sales, so do a lil' math....30,000*200=$6 MILLION. I would charge a minimum of $200, for a VLTOR-type stock of excellent quality. People would still pay that gladly. It is the only game in town right now. I am almost willing to fund production for this kind of money! LoL, who wants to go into the Cali-legal stock manufacturing business??!! These weapons are going to continue to enter the state, they NEED cali-compliant parts!!

blkA4alb
06-04-2006, 10:28 AM
-|-[ GunBomB']I think these new ideas are awesome and going in the proper direction. I am willing to pay $200+ to get a Kali DOJ approved, thumbrest/stock part. It will still be probably be over $100k to get this item from prototype to retail sales, so do a lil' math....30,000*200=$6 MILLION. I would charge a minimum of $200, for a VLTOR-type stock of excellent quality. People would still pay that gladly. It is the only game in town right now. I am almost willing to fund production for this kind of money! LoL, who wants to go into the Cali-legal stock manufacturing business??!! These weapons are going to continue to enter the state, they NEED cali-compliant parts!!
Don't get your hopes up about anything becoming DOJ approved. The DOJ hates everything that has to do with these and I will bet money that no stock or grip will ever be satisfactory to them.

]-|-[ GunBomB
06-04-2006, 11:30 AM
I get my hopes up in this thread, at least it exists here. These are just ideas bro, don't get your drawers all bunched up and defensive over people discussing them in the proper forum.

DV8
06-04-2006, 5:56 PM
Heres what I did to my stock. I had a lot of the clay like epoxy lying around and a $10 stock from arf.com so after a few minutes of molding this came out.

Close up:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e275/dv830/06042006005.jpg

Compared to an SU:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e275/dv830/06042006002.jpg

With a 10rnder:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e275/dv830/06042006003.jpg

Though I hate how it looks (and will return to fixed mag/PG after break in), its suprisingly comfortable to hold and shoot. We'll see if that changes after a couple of hundred rounds

6mmAI
06-04-2006, 7:34 PM
I would cut a piece of plywood to fit the hole. Screw into it through the grip and bottom, and then cover it with Bondo. After it was sanded and painted, you wouldn't know it was not original.


If anyone is going to go this route take caution. The gelcoat over foam core is thin and requires glass cloth and resin/ or epoxy to fill the thumbhole. I recommend installing a metal insert in the window before you start pouring resin in the void. Gravity and liquids do not go well together. Take note Bondo is not a structural filler and will crack around the filled window as it heats and cures. Marhide may work as it has glass threads and is much stronger. Do not over sand the gelcoat as you WILL go thru it into the foam core. If you do just put a skim coat of epoxy over the outside.
Before you start drill some holes around the inside of the window (just like bedding) to get a good grip and adhesion.

One last thing: Patent Pending!!!! Nah just kidding.....

Fate
06-04-2006, 8:33 PM
6mmAI, that came out really nice.

drb45acp
06-05-2006, 9:27 PM
I think this looks way too evil (and cool) to ever pass muster with the CADOJ, but I still say it would be legal.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/JAE-15Black.jpg

blacklisted
06-05-2006, 10:26 PM
I think this looks way too evil (and cool) to ever pass muster with the CADOJ, but I still say it would be legal.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/JAE-15Black.jpg

It also looks like it could snap the bottom of the receiver off. But it does look legal.

drb45acp
06-06-2006, 8:56 AM
It also looks like it could snap the bottom of the receiver off. But it does look legal.

I was wondering the same thing. That's a lot of weight and leverage on just the grip, but I think with an attachment bracket from the stock that hugs the back of the receiver and attaches in place of the rear detent sring retainer plate on the pistol buffer tube it would have enough strengh and support. The stock could also be skeletonized or hollowed out to make it as light as possible.

]-|-[ GunBomB
06-07-2006, 12:03 AM
OMG...this is the STUFF right here...That last pic is EXACTLY what needs to be produced!!! Make the stock out of the same thing GLOCK uses! Super Plastic Fantastic, it might last for a little while! PLEASE...PRETTY PLEASE????!!!! DOJ ARE YOU READING THIS????

AxonGap
06-12-2006, 4:00 PM
I think this looks way too evil (and cool) to ever pass muster with the CADOJ, but I still say it would be legal.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/drb45acp/JAE-15Black.jpg

Great idea! I hope J allen Enterprises is looking at this. A JAE stock for the Ca OLL would be awesome! I wish the interpretation of the thumbhole stock only encompassed those w/ "pistol grips" as defined by the law. Imagine the possibilities. Too bad anything that has a "hole" through the stock regardless of thumb placement is a no-no. Check out my "Kel-Tec"esque rendition of drb45acp's design (drb45acp, I hope you don't mind).

saki302
06-12-2006, 9:41 PM
The leverage thing should be a non-issue. Figure you can pick up and lever a normal AR just fine with only the pistol grip. Now, toss a 10# heavy barrel on there, and you may have issues...

-Dave