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View Full Version : Are AR-15 lowers legal?


Eagle Armory
09-11-2010, 6:02 PM
Hello all, I have been trying to find out what, if any, AR-15 lowers are legal in California. I'm not sure if they must follow the "flow chart" or if there is some other list.

Mainly I have some Stag, LMT, DPMS, RRA stripped and complete lowers, some forums you read people say they are illegal, others say they are legal.

Any help, info or links would be appreciated.

Thanks
Steve

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 6:13 PM
here is the official list from CADOJ, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter40.pdf , and the AR pattern firearms are listed on the AW flowchart.

Looking at your list, Stag and LMT are completely off-list, legal to import, sell, and possess in CA.

DPMS Panther (all) is on the lst, so any DPMS lowers that do say Panther Arms on them are on-list and not legal in CA. There are a few DPMS models that don't say Panther on them, buthey are a small number.

Rock River Arms is a tricky case. The lowers are legal in CA, the exact markings on the lowers are not on the list. But RRAs are listed by configurations, so it is possible to have/make a listed RRA, even with a unlisted lower.

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 6:18 PM
You're asking for an opinion with very little information. For instance, how long have you owned them? Which are stripped and which are complete? DPMS "Panther" series is assault weapon. RRA has both pre and post ban models. LMT, Stag have post ban models that are legal. Basically you can own any stripped or completed lower as long as it is not named in DOJ banned list.

If they are illegal and you owned them before the ban then you only had a year to register them with the state. So in that case if you didn't register your AW's after the ban, you would have to sell them out of state or have them destroyed.

here is a link to the CA DOJ summary of laws

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 6:25 PM
You're asking for an opinion with very little information. For instance, how long have you owned them? Which are stripped and which are complete? DPMS "Panther" series is assault weapon. RRA has both pre and post ban models. LMT, Stag have post ban models that are legal. Basically you can own any stripped or completed lower as long as it is not named in DOJ banned list.

If they are illegal and you owned them before the ban then you only had a year to register them with the state. So in that case if you didn't register your AW's after the ban, you would have to sell them out of state or have them destroyed.

here is a link to the CA DOJ summary of laws

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

The OP is fron TN KY and appears to be an FFL trying to determine what is legal to sell to CA residents. http://www.eaglearmory.com/ The bolded portoins do not apply to him.

CSACANNONEER
09-11-2010, 6:57 PM
You're asking for an opinion with very little information. For instance, how long have you owned them? Which are stripped and which are complete? DPMS "Panther" series is assault weapon. RRA has both pre and post ban models. LMT, Stag have post ban models that are legal. Basically you can own any stripped or completed lower as long as it is not named in DOJ banned list.

If they are illegal and you owned them before the ban then you only had a year to register them with the state. So in that case if you didn't register your AW's after the ban, you would have to sell them out of state or have them destroyed.

here is a link to the CA DOJ summary of laws

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

This is obviously bad info from someone who did not bother to read your entire post. Yes, many makes of lowers are legal to ship to Ca today. They just can not be lowers which are listed. Even then, there is a good legal arguement that srtipped listed lowers arelegal since, by themselves, they are not centerfire semi auto rifles. But, there's no reason to risk it since there are so many other options with less risk.

Eagle Armory
09-11-2010, 7:00 PM
Thanks for the help. I should have put in the post that I am dealer in KY, trying to serve those in California, but do not want to get anyone in trouble.

Thanks for that list, I have been searching for something like that for a while. I was not sure if the stripped lowers were considered different than what the the flow chart has.

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 7:15 PM
yes, a stripped lower is different from a complete rifle that would be subject to the questions on the flowchart. A stripped lower can be sent in without a magazine lock since as a stripped lower it is not currently a semi-automatic centerfire rifle that must comply with the features ban. It is arguable to say that even a listed stripped lower would be legal to import, sell, or possess in CA, but it isn't worth the hassle. Just deal in the off-list lowers and you can send them in stripped. If you send in a complete lower, it too can be sent in without a mag-lock since it isn't currently a semi-automatic centerfire rifle. Now, dealers in CA have their own level of exposure they are willing to accept with Off-list stuff. Some will accept complete lowers without a mag-lock, others will require a mag-lock on it, others will only accept stripped lowers. IIRC, I even recall hearing about a dealer that wanted a maglock installed on a stripped lower before it was shipped to him.

Basically, I would suggest offering a couple californication options for the buyer, and explain that they need to confer with their dealer what he will accept before you ship it to them. It is nice to see an out-of-state vendor willing to deal with CA. Yes, it sucks that we have these crappy laws, but if you can figure them out then you just expanded your potential market by 10-15% of the population.

bjl333
09-11-2010, 7:28 PM
Thanks for the help. I should have put in the post that I am dealer in KY, trying to serve those in California, but do not want to get anyone in trouble.

Thanks for that list, I have been searching for something like that for a while. I was not sure if the stripped lowers were considered different than what the the flow chart has.

Thank You for trying to do business here in Cali. Many won't even try ... again Thank You !! :thumbsup:

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 7:59 PM
This is obviously bad info from someone who did not bother to read your entire post. Yes, many makes of lowers are legal to ship to Ca today. They just can not be lowers which are listed. Even then, there is a good legal arguement that srtipped listed lowers arelegal since, by themselves, they are not centerfire semi auto rifles. But, there's no reason to risk it since there are so many other options with less risk.

Sorry you're so bitter, all knowing one. Could you point to the spot in the OP which says he is a dealer? Obviously I didn't read the location and assumed the question was from a CA resident...that's my bad...so sue me...lol

I hope the air is fresh and clear on that high horse you're on

CSACANNONEER
09-11-2010, 8:08 PM
Between his location, the tone of his post, the question and his monikar, I guess I just thought that it would be pretty obvious. Well that and he's posting this question in the FFL forum.

Eagle Armory
09-11-2010, 8:37 PM
It is nice to see an out-of-state vendor willing to deal with CA. Yes, it sucks that we have these crappy laws, but if you can figure them out then you just expanded your potential market by 10-15% of the population.

Thanks for the replies. Trying to find/read some of the California laws make my head hurt. I will stick with offering off list, Stag and LMT stripped and complete lowers for sale in California. I am still looking into the mag button options.

CSACANNONEER wise words on avoiding any possible issues with lowers/rifles that are on the list.

bjl333 thanks, we are trying to slowly add more items, either by request or by looking around. Just trying to make sure they are OK before we do.

jtmkinsd
09-12-2010, 8:39 AM
Thanks for the replies. Trying to find/read some of the California laws make my head hurt. I will stick with offering off list, Stag and LMT stripped and complete lowers for sale in California. I am still looking into the mag button options.

CSACANNONEER wise words on avoiding any possible issues with lowers/rifles that are on the list.

bjl333 thanks, we are trying to slowly add more items, either by request or by looking around. Just trying to make sure they are OK before we do.

Rock River LAR-15's are a popular make/model and legal in CA. Your call on what you want to import, but I wouldn't want to miss out on a revenue stream because of the confusion with CA laws.

I apologize for my confusion in my earlier post as well...just used to questions posted by CA residents.

Eagle Armory
09-12-2010, 11:05 AM
Rock River LAR-15's are a popular make/model and legal in CA. Your call on what you want to import, but I wouldn't want to miss out on a revenue stream because of the confusion with CA laws.

I apologize for my confusion in my earlier post as well...just used to questions posted by CA residents.

No need to apologize, I should have been more detailed in my op. I'll give the RRA lowers some more thought. I'm inclined to offer them, as they are not specifically listed by model as they are with other brands.

Thanks for your help.

Cokebottle
09-12-2010, 11:41 AM
No need to apologize, I should have been more detailed in my op. I'll give the RRA lowers some more thought. I'm inclined to offer them, as they are not specifically listed by model as they are with other brands.
There are dozens of lowers that are legal that may be more affordable and have less availability issues than RRA.

Noveske, Stag, JD, Kaiser, Spikes... just to name a few.

The thing that's going to hurt is the economy of shipping a stripped lower into California. Example, Riflegear sells the JD lower for around $120. Add $25 DROS plus tax and we're in the $155 range.

Of course, a stripped lower has to be imported through an FFL, which means adding $50-$100 on top of the above.
For people who don't live near a gun shop, then no... it doesn't matter whether the lower comes in from out of state or a California shop... they will need to find a kitchen table FFL to do the transfer.

The best market for out of state vendors really is in completed rifles, that are configured to be legal in California.... either featureless, or with a "bullet button" magazine locking device. Selling completed rifles gives you more room for profit, and brings the total price to a level where a $50-$100 transfer fee is more palatable to the buyer.


Thanks for thinking of us!