PDA

View Full Version : M&P 9mm catastrophic failures?


Kodemonkey
09-11-2010, 2:59 PM
Okay, so my wife has tried a HK USP9, a browning hi power, CZ 75, and a Smith &Wesson M&P 9. The M&P was the clear winner in her mind. She liked the way it shot, it felt good in her hands, everything was looking great until....


My friend who is a LASD deputy tells me not to do it. He says he has memos from the department stating that deputies may not carry this weapon on duty due to catastrophic failures during their testing. Including:

A handful of barrel ruptures
One case where the slide cracked.

Now he says he has proof, but after lurking on for a while I haven't heard any of this before. FUD? he says he is going to forward me the memos. If I can forward those memos without getting him in trouble I will post.

ZX-10R
09-11-2010, 3:04 PM
Never heard of this though I would like supporting info to read. That is one of the guns on my list of 3 I am looking to get very soon. I have heard nothing but good reviews on them.

What does he personally own?

Legasat
09-11-2010, 3:43 PM
This is an old story. Turned out the M&P 9 that failed had been "worked on" by the recruit with Dremel tool (a hand held grinder). S&W got cleared, the M&P 9 got cleared, and I don't remember if they eventually chose it or not. It also turned out that the Asst Chief's brother in law was the Glock Rep, so everything got blown way out of proportion.

M&P9 is as good as it gets. The Glocks, XD's, and most of the poly guns are fine pistols too. All VERY reliable.

Here is one of the famous "endurance tests" given to the M&P by an independant instructor M&P Endurance Test (http://pistol-training.com/archives/998) I believe he went over 60,000 rounds until something broke.

I started with one M&P, now have 3. I highly recommend them. Never a failure of any kind after thousands of rounds.

Remember: "Glocks blow up, SIGs have a high bore axis, Beretta locking blocks break, Ruger is anti-gun, 1911s are unreliable, and HK hates you. Get over it, and go with what works for you."

ZX-10R
09-11-2010, 3:46 PM
Thanks you are solidifying my choice...Also looking at M9. But S&W will most likely get nod.

dwtt
09-11-2010, 3:57 PM
I haven't heard of this, but from my personal experience with a M&P9c, I think this is a case of FUD from the LA Sheriff Dept. Remember, this is the same department that once shot 84 shots at a fleeing suspect and hit him twice, but did send dozens of bullets into nearby houses. I shoot 124 gr. RN bullets using Winchester 231 and have not had any problems after ~1500 rounds. If the OP's wife likes the M&P, she won't regret the choice. The slide is easier to grip than other guns with the S&W serrations and it's reliable. Just my opinion, though.

Kodemonkey
09-11-2010, 4:20 PM
I haven't heard of this, but from my personal experience with a M&P9c, I think this is a case of FUD from the LA Sheriff Dept. Remember, this is the same department that once shot 84 shots at a fleeing suspect and hit him twice, but did send dozens of bullets into nearby houses. I shoot 124 gr. RN bullets using Winchester 231 and have not had any problems after ~1500 rounds. If the OP's wife likes the M&P, she won't regret the choice. The slide is easier to grip than other guns with the S&W serrations and it's reliable. Just my opinion, though.

Yeah, the thing is she doesn't get excited about guns. She got a little excited about the M&P. I want to jump on her current enthusiasm. She also shot IDPA today for the first time with my HK USP9. She did very well-But the gun is way too big for her. I am interested to see the memo, but I think it is FUD. I just want something that she feels is her own- something she picked. We jumped on that $69 - 4 day defensive handgun course at frontsight and she needs something she can use well and get proficient with. And, eventually she wants to start kicking butt at IDPA (one thing at a time honey...)

Kodemonkey
09-11-2010, 4:48 PM
Never heard of this though I would like supporting info to read. That is one of the guns on my list of 3 I am looking to get very soon. I have heard nothing but good reviews on them.

What does he personally own?

He carries a Barreta 92FS on duty. I believe he also has an hk USP 45. At least I know that is what he wants. I really like my HK USP 9, but I have big hands. It's a great shooter and I feel very accurate with it. It has also NEVER jammed/FTF/FTE on any ammo (Winchester white box, remmington megapack UMC, corbon, federal and really crappy range reloads). But the USP is my gun and she must get her own ;)

smarter
09-11-2010, 4:49 PM
I've shot over 1k rounds of 9mm through my m&p9 w/o a hitch. 400 of those round at a pistol class and it perform flawless and accurate. Felt recoil is really manageable for those follow up shots on paper or for HD. It's my go to gun for sure.

ZX-10R
09-11-2010, 5:15 PM
He carries a Barreta 92FS on duty. I believe he also has an hk USP 45. At least I know that is what he wants. I really like my HK USP 9, but I have big hands. It's a great shooter and I feel very accurate with it. It has also NEVER jammed/FTF/FTE on any ammo (Winchester white box, remmington megapack UMC, corbon, federal and really crappy range reloads). But the USP is my gun and she must get her own ;)

HEHE I hear you on one must get their own.

Yeah the 92F (I want the M9A1) seems to be a great gun and is really a close choice between the S&W 9mm...I am having the I only want one problem but in the end know that both will be in my hands along with a 1911 one day :D

Shenaniguns
09-11-2010, 5:35 PM
I love my M&P 9mm but there were many teething problems early with barrels cracking and mags dropping on the compacts but most have been cleared up, S&W also has some of the best CS in the industry. One current problem that my gun has had was the tolerance stacking between my slide and frame that Apex Tactical had to adjust for when they installed my DCAEK trigger package, many of the Pro models are suffering dead triggers which is explained here:

Spamsammich's problem also occurred with our sear. I wrote a long dissertation on the problem over on the MP-pistol forum.
It is related to the vertical tolerances between slide and frame, the minute sear spring in the sear housing block, the profile of the cam surface of the sear, and the position of the trigger loop(or dog ear) relative to the cam surface during disconnect.
Essentially during recoil, the sear bounces. The bounce can be enough that the trigger bar can slip back underneath the sear and prevent the sear from catching the striker as the slide goes forward.
The ultimate solution is to use a larger diameter and longer sear spring and plunger.
Here is what I wrote over on the mp-pistol forum:
Greetings,
We have been investigating the problem for a little while and have isolated a few causes. Sear spring dimension, vertical tolerance between slide and frame coupled with the non-stock sear geometry such as ours and the pro sear all contribute to the dead trigger.
The primary culprit is sear bounce during recoil. My personal feeling is that the sear spring is not of adequate size to stabilize the sear during recoil, especially in the .40,.357 and .45s- moreso with the compacts.
The North Carolina State Police had issues with this as they use the .357 Sig caliber. The factory solution to the problem was to retrofit the pistols with a sear housing block similar if not identical to tha MA compliant version, and a new trigger assembly. The larger sear spring and plunger helps retard the inertial bounce by applying more adequate upward pressure to the sear.
The vertical tolerance between the slide and frame can vary as much as .015 or more (in some of the guns I've measured). When you figure that I established our sear to have .040" of sear/striker engagement and you lose almost half of that due to overly generous slide to frame vertical spacing- sear bounce becomes an
issue of great concern. Regardless of what some LE sales reps are telling their customers-that our sears are the culprit, our sears are not the problem.
Of all the sears we have sold, we know of less than 20 instances of dead triggers. Of those, I have inspected 7 and found all of them to have slide/frame gaps that measured .010-.018 greater than our other test pistols.
The Pro series pistols have been around for a while longer than our sear and reports of dead triggers have been reported since its introduction.
In most of the dead trigger reports, the sear is bouncing enough to let the trigger bar slip back under the sear. This effectively prevents the sear from recovering to full height. This is why many report that they detect no feeling of trigger reset when they release the trigger after the malfunction occurs. The trigger bar is already positioned under the sear cam as if it were ready to fire. But because the striker is already forward of the sear at this point, racking the slide is the only option to recock the striker.
I believe the M&P platform is an exceptional pistol. It just needs to evolve a bit more.
To that end, in the upcoming months we will be producing our own proprietary solutions.
Until then I encourage anyone who is experiencing a dead trigger with our sear to contact me directly.

-Randy


If S&W tightens up their QC they will continue to chop away at Glock's sales.

yzernie
09-11-2010, 6:07 PM
The M&P9 is a great piece and as reliable as they come. I would not hesitate to allow my wife or anyone else to shoot one. The problems LASD had were unique and gun specific and have since allowed the guns the be authorized.

orangeglo
09-11-2010, 6:40 PM
M&P's are GTG. I have a M&P45 and could possibly be looking for one in 9mm in the very near future.

Shenaniguns
09-11-2010, 6:57 PM
More words of wisdom

I have been a big fan of the M&P 40 & 45 for several years now, but have stuck with 9 mm Glocks. Recently, I had the opportunity to use an M&P9 w/ambi safety, Apex duty kit, and full stippling. I have never shot any pistol better faster or more accurately in my life. It felt as though I was wielding a laser or proverbial 40w plasma weapon, as I could not miss and the targets looked like little rat holes instead of shotgun patterns, even in rapid fire. There were no malfunctions of any kind with the M&P9. The M&P9 is now my favorite 9 mm pistol, surpassing the custom Hi-Powers I used to love, as well as my utilitarian 9 mm Glocks.
If I had to choose one pistol to carry for the rest of my life, it would be an M&P9 w/ambi safety, Apex Duty kit, and Trijicon RMR RDS.

thumbbreak--we have been running extensive trials with the M&P's. The Apex Duty Kits give a 5-6 lbs measued pull weight in our pistols, however, they are so smooth that it feels much less--certainly lighter in feel than Glocks w/3.5 connectors. First round hits with the M&P/Apex Duty set-up are quite possible all the way out to 100 yards.

Having carried 1911's for 25 years, I would agree with that in the positive sense--the M&P offers the outstanding ergonomics of the 1911, but in an easily serviced, cost effective platform that works exceedingly well for shooters used to 1911's and Hi-Powers. What is there not to like?

I currently am qualified on both the 9mm Glock and .45 ACP 1911. Likewise I have stated that if I were going back on LE patrol duties, I would choose to carry a M&P40. In general, ALL of the common service pistol calibers work adequately when fed modern well engineered and constructed robust expanding ammunition. As I have stated before, do your research and pick a readily available and easily serviceable pistol that you shoot well; ensure that it has a history of reliable and durable field use. Purchase two or three identical ones. Buy a lot of ammo. Then forget about hardware and focus on getting good training and regular practice. At this point in time, the 3rd Gen 9 mm Glocks, any caliber M&P, along with the HKP30 and HK45, are the best out of the box pistols currently available--of those, I prefer the M&P w/Apex Duty Kit.

missiondude
09-11-2010, 8:18 PM
My wife bought a 9mm M&P full size and never looked back. I resisted getting a plastic gun until I tried hers for a USPSA match. We both love the ergonomics. We did try the Glock and XD before making the purchases, and the M&P fit us better, and we shot them better as a result. I now have one as well. Have a great time at Front Sight.

Blackhawk556
09-11-2010, 8:50 PM
On apex website it says to not use their package on carry guns.

Any info on why?
What If we do???

Shenaniguns
09-11-2010, 8:53 PM
On apex website it says to not use their package on carry guns.

Any info on why?
What If we do???

Just on the AEK which is made for competition only, you're looking for the DCAEK

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid35.html

The APEX Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit (DCAEK) was designed to provide the M&P (9 mm, .357 Sig & .40 only) pistol owner a smooth, consistent 5 - 5.5 lb trigger pull with the advantages of shorter over-travel and reduced reset. The kit includes:

* APEX Hard Sear (9 mm, .357 Sig & .40 series) - NOT FOR .45 ACP
* APEX M&P Ultimate Striker Block Kit (USB kit)
* APEX M&P Increased Rate Sear Spring** (very small) & Trigger Return Spring

**PLEASE NOTE: the Sear Spring works for non-MA compliant pistols

All of the components work together to provide a pull weight within the acceptable range for a top end service pistol. The kit itself is engineered to be drop-in and should require NO further gunsmithing (however, armorer or gunsmith installation is recommended).

checkenbach
09-11-2010, 8:56 PM
I also think(dangerous?) that many Kabooms have been caused by bullet setback issues, not faulty gun issues. My M&P has been a brick, as reliable as a houshold appliance, but much more fun.

Gundam
09-11-2010, 11:14 PM
The only time I've heard of an M&P slide cracking at 62,300+ rounds. Seeing how there have been cases of glock slides cracking after several thousand rounds, I think that's a pretty good.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

smokingloon
09-11-2010, 11:27 PM
I have heard of extraction issues with the earlier production M&P9 and I have seen two M&Ps where the slide stop broke. They were rental guns so that probably played a role in it. I have close to 2k rounds out of my M&P45 with the apex kit and no issues except for the sights.

Ksmash01
09-12-2010, 8:42 PM
I've had my M&P 9 since they came out and were released in CA(January of '07 was when it was purchased). I wanted to see how reliable it would be if I shot it regularly, without cleaning/lubricating.

Just this year(July) I had my first malfunction(not fully in battery...I think I limpwristed it). It shot fine afterwards, but I gotta say it's one of the best pistols I've ever owned.......


I did finally clean/inspect it. There are no issues with my pistol what-so-ever. It took 3 years of regular shooting(200-300 rounds per trip to the range, shot at least once a month) and not being clean to finally have a failure of some sort....I'd say that's really dependable.

Good on your wife, and have her get the M&P, she'll love it.

Kodemonkey
09-12-2010, 11:08 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. My wife and I have been discussing it at length and she has come to the conclusion that if the gun really had all those problems smith and wesson would have either fixed it or pulled it. She liked the way it shot and felt and its her first gun that she got to pick after shooting several pistols. Now that we did IDPA yesterday she really is excited to get her own gun. We were just talking about how she wants to shoot IDPA with her own gun and how she is now really excited about that prospect.

Got to jump on this while she has the enthusiasm. She never wanted a gun in the house 7-8 years ago. Now she wants her own gun to shoot. Feeling pretty good right about now ;)

Notblake
09-12-2010, 11:13 PM
You should ask the officer if the slide from his 92 has ever flown off of the slide rails and hit him in the face........... ever wonder what the difference between the 92F and FS is?

M&P is a great gun, his 92 is a great gun. No mechanical machine is ever 100% failure free.