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View Full Version : Building a non-pistol stripped AR lower into pistol configuration. Legal?


vta
09-11-2010, 12:51 AM
OK, i know what the obvious answer here seems to be. I know I am not allowed to build a complete AR pistol from a stripped lower that is not registered as a pistol lower. That is not what I am asking.

what I am asking here is slightly different. I have a stripped AR lower that has never been built to a rifle. Am I legally allowed to build it up to a mag-locked, single-shot, pistol-buffered, stock-less complete lower (without an upper attached)?

That is of course I will NOT put a upper on it while it is still in CA. My plan is to take it with me out of state and convert it to a complete AR pistol there. depending on the legality, i either will or will not bring it back to CA and register it as a legal CA pistol upon returning to the state.

I am looking for the OLL legal buffs here to try to clear this up for me. You can speculate in your responses if you want but please be clear in them whether or not it is supported by documentation.

thanks.

Colt-45
09-11-2010, 12:54 AM
Bookmarked for reference.

If one has a stripped ar lower that has never been built. Can one go register it as a pistol and then build it to a pistol configuration?

69Mach1
09-11-2010, 12:58 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=271019

CA DOJ is the problem.

vta
09-11-2010, 12:59 AM
Bookmarked for reference.

If one has a stripped ar lower that has never been built. Can one go register it as a pistol and then build it to a pistol configuration?

i know that simply re-registering it to a pistol lower is not legal. my question here is different though. i am not looking into registering it into pistol. I am merely asking if keeping it registered as it is but have it configured as a lower without an upper is legal.

vta
09-11-2010, 1:02 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=271019

CA DOJ is the problem.

right. I am specifically asking whether or not CA DOJ will allow it here. Since it is not a pistol without an upper, i am not in possession of anything but a complete lower without a stock. isnt it just like a complete rifle lower without the CAR stock on the buffer tube?

if it never was made into a rifle, could i then take it with me to arizona, buy and mate it with a pistol upper and use it as a pistol there since it is legal to do that in arizona?

Quiet
09-11-2010, 1:13 AM
right. I am specifically asking whether or not CA DOJ will allow it here. Since it is not a pistol without an upper, i am not in possession of anything but a complete lower without a stock. isnt it just like a complete rifle lower without the CAR stock on the buffer tube?

if it never was made into a rifle, could i then take it with me to arizona, buy and mate it with a pistol upper and use it as a pistol there since it is legal to do that in arizona?

Federally...
"other" made into "handgun" = legal

State...
"long gun" made into a "handgun" = illegal

CA does not recognize "other", only "handgun" and "long gun".
Your receiver was 4473'd as "other", but DROS'd as "long gun" (because there are no AR recievers on the approved list for handguns).

It would be legal to make your AR reciever into a completed pistol reciever and have it in CA.

It would be legal to goto another state, acquire a pistol upper, install the pistol upper onto your AR lower and use it out-of-state.

It won't be legal, if you possess your reciever and the pistol upper in CA because it can be a SBR under CA law ("long gun" into "handgun").
Since you do not have a legal pistol lower in CA, it will also be illegal for you to own/possess a pistol upper in CA due to constructive possession of a SBR.

vta
09-11-2010, 1:18 AM
It would be legal to goto another state, acquire a pistol upper, install the pistol upper onto your AR lower and use it out-of-state.

It won't be legal, if you possess your reciever and the pistol upper in CA because it can be a SBR under CA law ("long gun" into "handgun").
Since you do not have a legal pistol lower in CA, it will also be illegal for you to own/possess a pistol upper in CA due to constructive possession of a SBR.

thanks. That is what I suspected.

now here is the next question, if i legally own that AR pistol while I am in Arizona, upon returning back into the state, wouldn't i be able to register it as an CA legal AR pistol as long as it fits the dimensionally compliant single shot?

Quiet
09-11-2010, 1:24 AM
thanks. That is what I suspected.

now here is the next question, if i legally own that AR pistol while I am in Arizona, upon returning back into the state, wouldn't i be able to register it as an CA legal AR pistol as long as it fits the dimensionally compliant single shot?

How would you be able to register it?

As a non-licensed resident of CA any firearm you acquire in another state, must be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.
You can't transfer a firearm to yourself, because you already own it.

vta
09-11-2010, 1:29 AM
How would you be able to register it?

As a non-licensed resident of CA any firearm you acquire in another state, must be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.
You can't transfer a firearm to yourself, because you already own it.

wouldnt this be similar to a college student or military personnel who are CA residents but live in another state temporarily who acquires an off list pistol? aren't they able to just register it via volreg upon returning to the state?

if not, does it mean i need to ship it to from a AZ FFL to my CA FFL as a single shot back to myself?

Quiet
09-11-2010, 1:34 AM
wouldnt this be similar to a college student or military personnel who are CA residents but live in another state who acquires an off list pistol? are they able to just register it via volreg?
No.
Because, they are considered (under Federal laws) to be a resident of that state and not a CA resident. Hence the reason why they can legally acquire a firearm in that state.

If you moved to another state and became a resident of that state, you can legally acquire firearms there. When you move back to CA to become a resident, you can use the New Resident Handgun Report to register any handguns you acquired as a resident of another state.

if not, does it mean i need to ship it to from a AZ FFL to my CA FFL as a single shot back to myself?
I don't think you can 4473 the same firearm. It can cause the BATFE to check you out, because doing so is abnormal.

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 1:40 AM
Strictly speaking you can't get there from here with what you have, if you know what I mean.

Quiet
09-11-2010, 1:40 AM
It's less complicated to just purchase a complete single-shot AR pistol from a CA FFL dealer.

vta
09-11-2010, 1:43 AM
It's less complicated to just purchase a complete single-shot AR pistol from a CA FFL dealer.

it is certainly easier to just walk into a store and buy one. but i am looking at alternatives not just to find out what the easiest way is to own one, but seeing what other options there are besides the already known.

personally, i would prefer to finish an 80% lower.

My problem with purchasing a complete AR pistol from a dealer is that the parts do not add up to the $1200 price tag. it is artificially inflated just like OLL rifles where at the beginning of the movement.

Quiet
09-11-2010, 1:50 AM
Mods to make an AR pistol have to be made prior to being imported into CA.

So, a CA FFL dealer pays...
Cost of AR pistol + shipping to out-of-state FFL + cost of CA legal modification parts + cost of out-of-state FFL to modify AR pistol + shipping to CA FFL dealer.

CA FFL dealer then charges you the above + profit margin + sales tax + transfer fee.

vta
09-11-2010, 1:51 AM
I don't think you can 4473 the same firearm. It can cause the BATFE to check you out, because doing so is abnormal.

i guess there is something to look into there. its ok for them to check me out, ive got nothing to hide (so i think :)). Once they see that I am clean, seeing if they will allow it is the question.


Cost of AR pistol + cost of CA legal modification parts + cost of out-of-state FFL to modify AR pistol + shipping.

i know its the out of state FFLs that are doing the over charging. installing a BB and then pop in a sled takes probably less than a minute. those 2 parts probably cost another $20 in wholesale.

A CA-legal KISS AR pistol should cost about $500 in parts or less. out of state FFLs are charging a 100% margins on that. good for them for capitalizing on an opportunity. I am just looking for a better way for us CA residents to get them if they are will to work a little.

vta
09-11-2010, 2:08 AM
No.
Because, they are considered (under Federal laws) to be a resident of that state and not a CA resident. Hence the reason why they can legally acquire a firearm in that state.

i didnt go out of state for college back in the day so i dont know how it works. but i wouldnt imagine that students who do that would become legal residents of the state knowing that they will be back in 4 years. going through the hassle of changing drivers license, registering to vote, etc.. wouldnt they keep their original state of residency? if they worked, they would pay state income tax back to CA and vote via absentee ballet in their home state. thats how i remember other out of state students did when i was in school (although its been awhile). isnt that also why they are paying out of state tuition? That still should make them residents of CA. What is the specific federal statute that talks about this?

Quiet
09-11-2010, 4:44 AM
For active-duty military, their military ID and orders for the state are required to purchase a firearm. There is no need to get that state's DL.

For a college student, they would need to get the other state's DL, in order to purchase a firearm.
All the college students I knew that went to college out-of-state and purchased firearms in that state, went through the "hassle" of establishing residency in that state. They did not pay out-of-state tution.
However, some of them did get "dual residency" by getting a CA ID card, absentee voting in CA & going back to CA during weekends/holidays/summer and giving up their CA DL to get the other state's DL. They did pay out-of-state tution. Example 2 is what they were doing.



27 CFR 478.11
State of residence.
The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.