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viet4lifeOC
09-10-2010, 11:37 PM
I was trying to PPT a Glock 35 from a fellow calgunner yesterday at Turner's in Orange. I paid my BMW car registration fee early and was planning to do the smoke check within the 30 days. Unfortunately, my car broke down (cost to fix it was 2-3K) two-three weeks ago. I needed a car for work so I went and bought a 2011 Scion Xb and decided to junk the BMW. I have a temporary car registration on the window of my car. Don't know exactly when the real car registration will get here.

Yesterday, my government issued car title came in the mail. There was an issue date and EXPIRATION date on the government issued car title.

I have a current driver's license with an old address. My wifes name is on all the utility bills. I have the Dish network bills under my name, but I only received one statement and that statement expired 6 months ago. Since I pay via credit card monthly, I haven't received any other statements from Dish Network.

I have my last years W2 with my name and current address.

I was planning to apply for a CCW so I have a less than 3 month old DMV driving record that was mailed to me.

Ok--so do I have enough documents to PPT the Glock35? I plan to DROS a CZ 75 SP-01 this Monday also.

If I don't have enough document...what else can I use?

have my wife write out a lease agreement and have her sign and date it?

The Turners guys said "need a government issued document WITH expiration date." I ran home and met up again with the seller with car title of my new car THAT has my name, address, issue date, and expiration date. Turner guy still turns me down for the PPT.

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 12:23 AM
look at this thread by Wes at 10%, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=327217 . It is his cheat sheet on POR.

looks like you should be fine with what you have. You cover CA POR with the CADL and the vehicle registration.

Federal POR is needed because your CADL doesn't have your current address on it, the feds require a .gov document with you curreent address on it. I would thing a vehicle registration from a state .gov agency would meet that.

you need to find out who's POR requirements he thinks you haven't meet. Then go step-by-step to get him to explain why what you have doesn't meet it. A dish bill won't work for CA or federal POR. A signed lease from your wife would meet CA POR, but not fed POR.

viet4lifeOC
09-11-2010, 12:56 AM
I read Wes 10% before posting because my particular case us not addresses.

I DO NOT have a permanent car registration. I have a temporary registration affixed to the window of my new car. I do not know when I will get my new car registration. I did receive my CAR TITLE issued by the government with my name, current address, issed date, and EXPIRATION date.

I allowed my old reistration on the BMW to expired after it broke down.

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 1:22 AM
The title will do fine...all you need is that and your ID and HSC card (or exemption)...If your FFL won't accept it, it's because he/she isn't knowledgeable enough about the requirements. Some FFL's get in a comfort zone with what they will or won't accept...there's just nothing you can do about that. So if they won't take it, ask them what they will and go from there. Or find another FFL who will.

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 1:28 AM
I read Wes 10% before posting because my particular case us not addresses.

I DO NOT have a permanent car registration. I have a temporary registration affixed to the window of my new car. I do not know when I will get my new car registration. I did receive my CAR TITLE issued by the government with my name, current address, issed date, and EXPIRATION date.

I allowed my old reistration on the BMW to expired after it broke down.

oh, I misread that and thought you have your permanent registration mailed to you, not the title.

So, in this case, I'm guessing, but the .gov issued title might cover you federally, so you just need to cover the state POR. I don't think a title would be acceptable for CA POR since it does not have a period of validity. So, based on what you said earlier, you might have to go with a lease agreement with your wife. But it would be a goood idea to talk to the FFL and see exactly where the exact problem is, whether it be CA or federal POR he doesn't feel you have met, and then work towards meeting that requirement.


The title will do fine...all you need is that and your ID and HSC card (or exemption)...If your FFL won't accept it, it's because he/she isn't knowledgeable enough about the requirements.question, under what part of CA's POR regulations does a car title fall under http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 1:33 AM
CAR TITLE issued by the government with my name, current address, issed date, and EXPIRATION date.

one government issued document takes care of it all

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 1:40 AM
CAR TITLE issued by the government with my name, current address, issed date, and EXPIRATION date.

one government issued document takes care of it all

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.why does a "car title" have an expiration date on it? OK, that is why I thought he had previously received his car registration, not his title, when he mentioned the expiration doate. I dont' recall seeing an expiration on a title before. Does my ownership of the car expire at some time in the future?

If the title does have an expiration , then I don't see why it wouldn't fall under that section you posted. But if it doesn't have an expiration date, then I dont' think it would be acceptable for CA POR.

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 1:42 AM
I accept court papers, government utility bills (we have several water districts which are county owned), and just about anything else that comes from a government agency. We can argue about what "period of validity" means as far as expiration dates are concerned.

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 1:46 AM
If someone with an incorrect address on their license has a government document which has their current address on it, both State and Federal requirements are met with the single document.

viet4lifeOC
09-11-2010, 7:14 AM
You're right it is odd that there is a expiration date on my car title. But it does show my name, current address, ISSUED and EXPIRATION date on it.

How does the W2 fit in all this? I have my last year's W2 with my name and current address...Because it's issued by the government...does this not cover me for proof of residency?

ke6guj
09-11-2010, 10:15 AM
I could see the W2 possibly satisfying federal POR, but not CA POR since there is no "period of validity" for a W2.

viet4lifeOC
09-11-2010, 12:56 PM
Quick up-to-date


Seller and I meet up at OC Armoury to PPT. Owner easily PPT in less than 10 minutes. Only needed my CA DL, HSC, and W2. My last PPT was in Fountain Valley Turner's and took nearly 2-2 1/2 hours. Refreshing to know PPT CAN be easy.


Thanks for everyone's input.

Greatly appreciatedly

jtmkinsd
09-11-2010, 6:06 PM
Quick up-to-date


Seller and I meet up at OC Armoury to PPT. Owner easily PPT in less than 10 minutes. Only needed my CA DL, HSC, and W2. My last PPT was in Fountain Valley Turner's and took nearly 2-2 1/2 hours. Refreshing to know PPT CAN be easy.


Thanks for everyone's input.

Greatly appreciatedly


Glad to hear it...I don't know if I can beat less than 10 minutes on a handgun...lol...if both parties have their act together and have the correct ID/por/hsc...then it's usually about 10 minutes...but that's rarely the case...lol

tenpercentfirearms
09-11-2010, 9:45 PM
Quick up-to-date


Seller and I meet up at OC Armoury to PPT. Owner easily PPT in less than 10 minutes. Only needed my CA DL, HSC, and W2. My last PPT was in Fountain Valley Turner's and took nearly 2-2 1/2 hours. Refreshing to know PPT CAN be easy.


Thanks for everyone's input.

Greatly appreciatedly

I wouldn't have accepted a W2 as a government issued document with an expiration date or period of validity, but glad for you OC Armory did.

viet4lifeOC
09-12-2010, 5:59 PM
Wes,

After Turner's turned me down--I search this forum for CA proof of residency and came across your flow sheet.

Funny cause the FFL dealer actually pulled out a printed copy of your cheat sheet.

From my understand--which is minimal--W2 are acceptable.

Please straighten me out cause I have to DROS a CZ tomorrow.

thanks

jtmkinsd
09-12-2010, 8:57 PM
Wes,

After Turner's turned me down--I search this forum for CA proof of residency and came across your flow sheet.

Funny cause the FFL dealer actually pulled out a printed copy of your cheat sheet.

From my understand--which is minimal--W2 are acceptable.

Please straighten me out cause I have to DROS a CZ tomorrow.

thanks

It's hit or miss what each FFL will or won't accept...as proven by your transaction...they accepted your W-2 (I would as well) some say we're not supposed to by the letter of the law. Some say we can. In the end it is up to the specific FFL you are using. And if DOJ and/or BATFE has an issue with it, they would bring it up to us during the regular inspections we have with them. On several occasions both agencies have reviewed the packets I put together with proof of residencies just like yours ("technically not allowed" as some say) and neither agency representative has stated it's innappropriate.

tenpercentfirearms
09-12-2010, 9:16 PM
Wes,

After Turner's turned me down--I search this forum for CA proof of residency and came across your flow sheet.

Funny cause the FFL dealer actually pulled out a printed copy of your cheat sheet.

From my understand--which is minimal--W2 are acceptable.

Please straighten me out cause I have to DROS a CZ tomorrow.

thanks

According to the CA DOJ, you must have

Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a CA Driver License or CA Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

Examples of acceptable proof of residency:

Current DMV registrations.
Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name onit from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

So for the state, how is your W-2 a government issued license, permit, or registration? Second, what is it's expiration date or period of validity?

I don't think it meets the definition of a license, permit, or registration and it definitely doesn't have a expiration date and I am not sure if it has a period of validity either.

Now, the W-2 would most certainly work for correcting your address for the Feds on the 4473 because your address does not match. However, I would not accept it for your POR for CA DOJ handguns.

viet4lifeOC
09-13-2010, 8:30 AM
Just curious,

FFL have different standards of what is acceptable as proof of residency. Let's say the FFL OKs certain documents and PPT/DROS the gun. DROS gets denied. Who should pay for the next DROS when the proper paper work is resubmitted. Shouldn't the FFL cover the fee for the second submission?

ke6guj
09-13-2010, 12:04 PM
Just curious,

FFL have different standards of what is acceptable as proof of residency. Let's say the FFL OKs certain documents and PPT/DROS the gun. DROS gets denied. Who should pay for the next DROS when the proper paper work is resubmitted. Shouldn't the FFL cover the fee for the second submission?well, if the FFL accepted invalid documents for the DROS, it wouldn't automatically get denied. those docs dont' get sent to CADOJ. CADOJ doesn't know what you used to prove POR. So, unless CADOJ came in to audit them during the 10-day wait, or they self-audited (which a smart FFL does) the paperwork, your DROS will go through fine.

tenpercentfirearms
09-13-2010, 3:42 PM
That is why none of this matters for you consumers unless your FFL is being difficult and a pain in your rear. I can take the wrong documents all day long and I will never know until I get audited a year or ten years from now.

ke6guj
09-13-2010, 3:49 PM
and then it'll get reported that you sold hundreds of guns illegally. the inference being that you sold them "off the books" out the back door, not that a minor paperwork error occured.

Capt. Speirs
09-13-2010, 6:32 PM
Quick up-to-date


Seller and I meet up at OC Armoury to PPT. Owner easily PPT in less than 10 minutes. Only needed my CA DL, HSC, and W2. My last PPT was in Fountain Valley Turner's and took nearly 2-2 1/2 hours. Refreshing to know PPT CAN be easy.


Thanks for everyone's input.

Greatly appreciatedly

2 1/2 hours, did they serve lunch? What could have possibly taken that long and why did you put up with it?

tenpercentfirearms
09-13-2010, 7:04 PM
2 1/2 hours, did they serve lunch? What could have possibly taken that long and why did you put up with it?

I missed that the first time around. That is insane. I have dealt with customers for 2 hours before, but we were looking at just about every possible type of AR accessory possible and the customer appreciated the full two hours of my time.

viet4lifeOC
09-13-2010, 7:23 PM
trust me..I WAS SHOCKED. I bought a Sig P6 from a fellow calgunner who came down to OC from Los Angeles. I read up on what is required for a PPT..figured no more than an hour tops. Seriously. ..we were there a very long, long time. I felt so bad for the seller that I told him he should leave before traffic hits once he was done with his part of the paper work..I had to fill out more and do the safe handgun demostration (which I thought would be shown to me when I picked it up). Seemed like a new guy was doing the paperwork, but it shouldn't have taken that long.

I've spoken to other calgunners since..and Turner's seem to put PPT after potential buyers who are looking to buy from Turner's..which makes a lot of business sense.

jtmkinsd
09-13-2010, 8:05 PM
trust me..I WAS SHOCKED. I bought a Sig P6 from a fellow calgunner who came down to OC from Los Angeles. I read up on what is required for a PPT..figured no more than an hour tops. Seriously. ..we were there a very long, long time. I felt so bad for the seller that I told him he should leave before traffic hits once he was done with his part of the paper work..I had to fill out more and do the safe handgun demostration (which I thought would be shown to me when I picked it up). Seemed like a new guy was doing the paperwork, but it shouldn't have taken that long.

I've spoken to other calgunners since..and Turner's seem to put PPT after potential buyers who are looking to buy from Turner's..which makes a lot of business sense.

Turner's is NOT a place you want to go to do transfers. As with your experience they make it very plainly obvious they don't want your business unless you're buying from their inventory. As to the safe handling demo...they are supposed to ask if you know how to load and unload the weapon...if you say no, they are supposed to show you, then watch you perform the demo. If they just hand you the gun and watch you fumble around with it then that's just another reason not to go there IMHO.